Reverie

Blue Jays 2021

shack

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I'm saying that both Sanchez and Stro are starting to mature and peak now, and IMO they wouldve done that for whatever team they were traded to, or became free agent for (only Sanchez was a FA by the way, Stro stayed with team he got traded to).

So had the Jays stuck with these 2 and been more patient with them, it wouldve paid off now because they would fit in perfectly with our current team
This is all makes sense and is hard to dispute. Although we should recall that Stroman seemed to be somewhat disruptive and not a great team player. Sanchez, on the other hand, seemed to have good character but he was perennially injured and in the relatively few starts he gave us seasonally, his performance was erratic at best. Despite what you say, I think that they were very patient with Sanchez. He was 32-33 with the Jays but if you take away his great 15-2 in 2016 he was 17-31 in his other 5 years and 8-23 in the 3 years immediately after 2016 with an ERA around 5.00.

I'd like to ask, though, at the times of the trades did you display disappointment that we traded them away? Did you say that the Jays were making big mistakes?
 
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black booty lover

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This is all makes sense and is hard to dispute. Although we should recall that Stroman seemed to be somewhat disruptive and not a great team player. Sanchez, on the other hand, seemed to have good character but he was perennially injured and in the relatively few starts he gave us seasonally, his performance was erratic at best. Despite what you say, I think that they were very patient with Sanchez. He was 32-33 with the Jays but if you take away his great 15-2 in 2016 he was 17-31 in his other 5 years and 8-23 in the 3 years immediately after 2016 with an ERA around 5.00.

I'd like to ask, though, at the times of the trades did you display disappointment that we traded them away? Did you say that the Jays were making big mistakes?

Non of it makes sense. I have no idea what your talking about. These two players collectively pitched 13 games for there new teams in two years. Stroman's era was 3.77 which isn't bad but not great, and Sanchez's was over 5. What exactly "makes sense" in his argument they were "bad trades"?

Then they became FA's and collectively are making close to 25 million this year. So if we wanted them and signed them, then we wouldn't have the money to sign Springer. In the case of Stroman, the Mets have much deeper pockets then the Jays, so the Mets didn't give a shit about the risk and had no problem giving him 20 million for one season.

The Jays are still kind of in a "wait and see" mode as they wanted to make sure Vald was going to become Vlad, Bo continued to be Bo, and Hernedez was also not a one year fluke before they spend anymore money on the pieces they need to put them over the top.

There's only two ways these trades can be evaluated. Either the prospects they Jays got to don't pan out in which case the trades or a push seeing as Stro and Sanchez did fuck al for the their teams, or the prospects turn into something and we win the trades.
 
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shack

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Non of it makes sense. I have no idea what your talking about. These two players collectively pitched 13 games for there new teams in two years. Stroman's era was 3.77 which isn't bad but not great, and Sanchez's was over 5.
I am talking about what type of commodities these guys were when traded without the benefit of hindsight and what they did afterward. Who felt, at that time, that in spite of these guys' deficiencies the Jays should have stuck with them longer and spoke out about it.
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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No, they were both FA's, and who knows if they would have stayed. Just because Stroman stayed with the Mets, doesn't mean he wasn't an FA. Again, your making assumptions about free agents. I don't understand....

So, great, they matured after their contracts were up. What good would that do us? Your in the same boat. You still have to sign them for a deal you think is the right price, amongst other issues.

We can this conversation with every single FA there was in the off season. Why they weren't offered a contract will very based on a ton of variables. Should we go down the list of every single that was an FA and figured out why they weren't offered a contract?
Okay, let me simplify it for you. Only 2 scenarios are possible:

1. Jays FO wanted to get rid of one (or both) and decided to trade them. If thats the case I wish they hadnt done that, kept them, and offered both contracts once they became FA's

2. Both players wanted to leave. If thats the case I onviously cant blame Shapiro, but I wish they had stayed because I think they fit in perfectly in this current team.

I hope that explains it better
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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This is all makes sense and is hard to dispute. Although we should recall that Stroman seemed to be somewhat disruptive and not a great team player
I think thats maybe why they got rid of Stro. He does have a bit of an attitude problem.
But lots of players have that. It can sometimes make for a feistier player on the field (which is a good thing).
But obviously not always a good thing in the clubhouse.

Case in point:


I'd like to ask, though, at the times of the trades did you display disappointment that we traded them away? Did you say that the Jays were making big mistakes?
I wasnt happy with Stro leaving. With Sanchez I was 50/50 IIRC.

I definitely wasnt happy with what we got back in the trades
 
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black booty lover

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Okay, let me simplify it for you. Only 2 scenarios are possible:

1. Jays FO wanted to get rid of one (or both) and decided to trade them. If thats the case I wish they hadnt done that, kept them, and offered both contracts once they became FA's

2. Both players wanted to leave. If thats the case I onviously cant blamne Shapiro, but I wish they had stayed because I think they fit in perfectly in this current team.

I hope that explains it better
So this is completely different then your original post about basically what we got back for the trades.

Even in this scenario, it just wouldn't make sense. Hanging on to two guys for the next 3 years during a rebuild, hoping they stayed healthy, pitched well, and then would resign with us once their contracts were up just doesn't make any sense. The Jays were the oldest team in baseball with one of the highest payrolls, it was clear they needed to blow it up and rebuild. A team doesn't know what it's needs are going to be when it's time to compliment the young core. Starting pitching might not be your needs depending how your prospects pan out, but maybe you need a big bat that can play a great centre field like George Springer. There was no reason to hang to these to all at that point. Say both get hurt, then you get noting for them.

Moving off these two was the right move in every single perspective. I mean the one thing about Stroman was he loved Toronto and kind of acted like an ambassador for the city, but you can't keep a guy because he got a tatoo of the city skyline on his chest. Business is business.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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So this is completely different then your original post about basically what we got back for the trades
No, its not completely different. Look at post #525, I stand by what I said. I think both trades sucked.
I'd much rather have current Sanchez/Stro then some future prospects (who may or may not pan out)

Even in this scenario, it just wouldn't make sense. Hanging on to two guys for the next 3 years during a rebuild, hoping they stayed healthy, pitched well, and then would resign with us once their contracts were up just doesn't make any sense
Why not??
What makes you think they wouldnt have re-signed??
Stro loves Toronto

The Jays were the oldest team in baseball with one of the highest payrolls, it was clear they needed to blow it up and rebuild. A team doesn't know what it's needs are going to be when it's time to compliment the young core. Starting pitching might not be your needs depending how your prospects pan out, but maybe you need a big bat that can play a great centre field like George Springer. There was no reason to hang to these to all at that point. Say both get hurt, then you get noting for them
Honestly, I'd rather have 2 good SP's then Springer right now. You can never have enough good pitching.
The team appears to be hitting fine without Springer so far

Moving off these two was the right move in every single perspective. I mean the one thing about Stroman was he loved Toronto and kind of acted like an ambassador for the city, but you can't keep a guy because he got a tatoo of the city skyline on his chest. Business is business
Hey, you're happy with the trades and thats fine. We dont all have to agree on everything, do we??
Try not to let it ruin your weekend (y)
 

shack

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I wasnt happy with Stro leaving. With Sanchez I was 50/50 IIRC.

I definitely wasnt happy with what we got back in the trades
Probably not far off from where I was.

I think that Woods-Richardson (or is it Richardson-Woods :unsure:) may still work out.
 

black booty lover

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No, its not completely different. Look at post #525, I stand by what I said. I think both trades sucked.
I'd much rather have current Sanchez/Stro then some future prospects (who may or may not pan out)

But we wouldn't have them!!!! They were free agents!!! Don't you understand this??? Your not making any sense.
 

black booty lover

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Why not??
What makes you think they wouldnt have re-signed??
Stro loves Toronto
What difference does it make?? We could have went after them both if we wanted to on the open market. The gamble is the exact same. I don't know what your point is when you keep saying "they could have "re-signed".
 

Phil C. McNasty

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But we wouldn't have them!!!! They were free agents!!! Don't you understand this??? Your not making any sense.
Were they free agents when we traded them?? No!
They were gonna be FA's the next year IIRC (or the year after).
What makes you think they wouldnt have signed with the Jays as FA's??

Costanza, can you please explain to Phil what a free agent is...lol. I'm throwing in the towel...lol
I know what a free agent is....DUH. This is when you get snippy and need to chill out a little.

Are you saying there's no way the Blue Jays wouldve signed them when they became free agents??
 
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shack

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As far as this debate between Phil and BBL, I think the point that Phil is trying to make is that the existing team that the FA is with, many times has an advantage in re-signing the FA as long as there is a good working relationship and that home team actually wants him back and will make a competitive offer. I believe that if two offers are equal, the existing team has an advantage because of a familiarity factor.

Having said that, strictly speaking, as BBL is saying, that FA is available to anyone who wants to outbid everybody else if they really want him.

Neither one of you is 100% right or 100%wrong.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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As far as this debate between Phil and BBL, I think the point that Phil is trying to make is that the existing team that the FA is with, many times has an advantage in re-signing the FA as long as there is a good working relationship and that home team actually wants him back and will make a competitive offer. I believe that if two offers are equal, the existing team has an advantage because of a familiarity factor.

Having said that, strictly speaking, as BBL is saying, that FA is available to anyone who wants to outbid everybody else if they really want him.

Neither one of you is 100% right or 100%wrong
Well said.

But I was arguing from the point if Jays FO had no intent of signing them as soon as they became FA's then I think they made a mistake.
I wouldve held on to Stroman for sure, and Sanchez maybe also (although he did have more question marks around him)
 

bemeup

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It’s too early to say that the Jays lost the Stroman trade. Simeon Woods-Richardson is only 20 and shows promise. Anthony Kay, I admit, has been disappointing so far, but he is also young. If the Jays hadn’t suffered so many injuries to their pitching staff, Kay would likely have spent the season in the rotation in Buffalo, instead of spot-starting and pitching in relief for the Jays.
 

black booty lover

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Were they free agents when we traded them?? No!
They were gonna be FA's the next year IIRC (or the year after).
What makes you think they wouldnt have signed with the Jays as FA's??


I know what a free agent is....DUH. This is when you get snippy and need to chill out a little.

Are you saying there's no way the Blue Jays wouldve signed them when they became free agents??

What I'm saying Phil, is for some reason your making some kind of connection to FA's and the trade.

One has nothing to do with other.

When you make a trade, your evaluating what the players did under their current contracts.

Stroman and Sanchez did pretty much nothing after they got traded under their the contracts they were in at the time.

So what did we give up??? nothing, but we got back some good prospects.

It was a win win for the jays to make these deals


Would rather have Marcus Semien right now or stroman? Cause that's what this boils down to
 

black booty lover

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It’s too early to say that the Jays lost the Stroman trade. Simeon Woods-Richardson is only 20 and shows promise. Anthony Kay, I admit, has been disappointing so far, but he is also young. If the Jays hadn’t suffered so many injuries to their pitching staff, Kay would likely have spent the season in the rotation in Buffalo, instead of spot-starting and pitching in relief for the Jays.
To early in the sense that yes, we don't know what Simeon Woods will be. Marcus Stroman played 11 fucking games in two years for the Mets, If Simeon turns out to be anything at all, we win the trade. If he's a bust, the trade is a push since both did nothing under there contracts.
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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What I'm saying Phil, is for some reason your making some kind of connection to FA's and the trade.

One has nothing to do with other.

When you make a trade, your evaluating what the players did under their current contracts.

Stroman and Sanchez did pretty much nothing after they got traded under their the contracts they were in at the time.

So what did we give up??? nothing, but we got back some good prospects.

It was a win win for the jays to make these deals


Would rather have Marcus Semien right now or stroman? Cause that's what this boils down to
Thats fine if thats your opinion, I just dont agree with it.

Tonight's gonna be a cracker. Ryu vs. Greinke. Got the beers chilled and everything (y)
 
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