Reverie

Final debate

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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Are you prepared to accept that as Train Like said in the poll thread:


To try to quibble about one point with Clinton, which is debatable on its own, without looking at the whole picture is ridiculous.
If you're going to discuss the accuracy of statements you're going to have to start by defending 72% of Trump's statements.
Deflection. You never answer any questions, no matter how straightforward, if you sense the answer undermines your argument. That's an old game. It may work on some, but it doesn't work on me.

I'll write what you apparently acknowledge, but don't want to post. I accurately described the position of the US government as to their state of certainty that Russia is responsible for the WikiLeaks hacks. The fact that Trump never states this as clearly as I have doesn't change my appreciation for what the facts are.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Deflection. You never answer any questions, no matter how straightforward, if you sense the answer undermines your argument. That's an old game. It may work on some, but it doesn't work on me.

I'll write what you apparently acknowledge, but don't want to post. I accurately described the position of the US government as to their state of certainty that Russia is responsible for the WikiLeaks hacks. The fact that Trump never states this as clearly as I have doesn't change my appreciation for what the facts are.
As you stated, those 17 intelligence agencies said they have 'high degree of confidence' that Russia/Putin were behind the acts.
Politifact ranks this claim as 'true'.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...y-clinton-blames-russia-putin-wikileaks-rele/

There is a direct answer that backs up your claim with sources showing that you are wrong.
Happy now?

And now are you ready to apply the same standards to the 72% of Trump's statements that were found to be lies?
 

Bud Plug

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As you stated, those 17 intelligence agencies said they have 'high degree of confidence' that Russia/Putin were behind the acts.
Politifact ranks this claim as 'true'.
I have to admit, you're making progress Frank. Now will you go the rest of the way, and agree that stating "Russia is responsible for the hacks" is an overstatement of "we have a high degree of confidence that Russia is behind the hacks"?

If so, I'd be prepared to answer your question (although that will be a lot more work than what I've asked you to do).
 

IM469

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Jul 5, 2012
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Personally I thought it was Trumps best debate. For the most part he acted as a candidate not a whiny kid out of grade school. Less interruptions demonstrated some rare restraint and dignity.

I thought he blew everything he accomplished when he refused to accept the election results. Of all the lies has told - this should have been the one he really needed.

Gore's election was contested on the number of votes cast (results) but once the official count was upheld by the courts and election results posted, Gore supported the results. If Trump (if he looses) does not support the result, there could be violent repercussions.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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I have to admit, you're making progress Frank. Now will you go the rest of the way, and agree that stating "Russia is responsible for the hacks" is an overstatement of "we have a high degree of confidence that Russia is behind the hacks"?

If so, I'd be prepared to answer your question (although that will be a lot more work than what I've asked you to do).
Why would I agree to your claim when the statement was looked at and found to be 'true', according to politifact?
 

mjg1

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Feb 21, 2008
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Now Trump is complaining Hilary was given the debate questions, the moderator is from Fox news!

"Why didn't Hilary Clinton announce that she was inappropriately given the debate questions -she secretly used them!"
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/789117930801926148

Just like I said, a long time ago, he is going blame everybody and everything, except himself after he loses!
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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Intelligence Agencies foundtheir opinion was that they believe they have a high degree of confidence that it was the Russians. Statements like that tell you that their opinion is less than certain.

And Trump says the sexual allegations against him are "largely debunked". An undeniable perfect analogy. Obviously his opinion is less than certain on this topic.
 

shack

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Oct 2, 2001
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Gore's election was contested on the number of votes cast (results) but once the official count was upheld by the courts and election results posted, Gore supported the results. If Trump (if he looses) does not support the result, there could be violent repercussions.
Not a problem. He has many others that he can blame this on.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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And Trump says the sexual allegations against him are "largely debunked". An undeniable perfect analogy. Obviously his opinion is less than certain on this topic.
There is a 10th accusation that came out today.
More of the same.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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I have to admit, you're making progress Frank. Now will you go the rest of the way, and agree that stating "Russia is responsible for the hacks" is an overstatement of "we have a high degree of confidence that Russia is behind the hacks"?

If so, I'd be prepared to answer your question (although that will be a lot more work than what I've asked you to do).
It's not an overstatement. Russia is responsible.

Period.
 

fuji

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Trump's lack of self control and lack of preparation allowed Clinton to sweep the debates, easily winning all three.

In the most recent:

1. His egotistical refusal to agree to respect the results

2. His childish reaction to Clinton calling him a puppet and his subsequent attack on US intelligence agencies

3. His temper tantrum when she said he choked in Mexico

4. His "nasty woman" outburst she said he pays less tax than social security recipients

He was pathologically unable to stay on message and instead repeatedly descended into impulsive, egotistical, childish tantrums and outbursts.

Clinton alternated between letting him dig himself into a deeper hole, and letting him talk over her. Both tactics showing him temperamentally unfit.

For all the damage that Trump did to himself through his lecherous behavior in the past, what's losing him the election is his inability to rise above the mud and appear presidential.
 

IM469

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Jul 5, 2012
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It's not an overstatement. Russia is responsible.

Period.
Independent of who they targeted or even if they use the excuse that a presidential candidate requested it - Russia has been actively attempting to subvert the US election thus the government itself.

There has to be a strong reaction from the US - maybe an attack of Putin's personal secrets ?
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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O loved that Trump moved his debate tactics up a level on this one. He must have had someone from Oxford's debating society help him prep.

Clinton: Well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president.

Trump: No puppet, no puppet.

Clinton: And it's pretty clear --

Trump: You're the puppet.

Clinton: It's pretty clear you won't admit.

Trump: No, you're the puppet.


Masterfull retort by him that I'm sure will help him connect with the education level of many of his supporters.
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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As you stated, those 17 intelligence agencies said they have 'high degree of confidence' that Russia/Putin were behind the acts.
Politifact ranks this claim as 'true'.
Remember when BHO told Governor Romney “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War's been over for 20 years.” After he had truthfully said that Russia posed the greatest threat to the United States.

Hmm think President Obama is going to issue a public apology any time soon?
 
O

OnTheWayOut

It's not an overstatement. Russia is responsible.

Period.
How about the people who wrote the emails being responsible?

IMO it's a lot more important what is in the emails than who hacked them, they did everyone a fine service by exposing so much corruption and underhanded trickery. Yet, HRC's penchant for diverting attention has many people talking about the hacking instead of the content. Luckily not everyone is falling for it. In coming days hopefully the content becomes the focus. Let the bitch get what she deserves ......
 

fuji

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How about the people who wrote the emails being responsible?
If the Trump campaign doesn't want Russian intelligence influencing an American election they could easily nullify what the Russian spies have done by releasing all Trump's campaign manager's emails to the public.

Then everything would be equally on the table for both sides and the American people would have a fair comparison.

I guarantee you that Trump's campaign manager's emails are full of frank discussions of Trump's weaknesses, various schemes to undermine Trump's critics, schemes to damage Clinton, and a fair number of dirty tricks.

That's what happens. Election campaign play hardball.

You are seeing behind the curtain on the Clinton campaign because of foreign espionage against Clinton. You should assume that the Trump campaign has just as much dirty laundry that you aren't seeing because he wasn't targeted by the KGB.
 

bver_hunter

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Nov 5, 2005
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I'm prepared to agree that Trump is not as talented a debater as Clinton. She should be better, as trained lawyer and as someone who has had to appear for so many hours before so many inquiries and hearings into her activities.

However, that analysis misses the point. The purpose of the debate is not a contest of debating talent, it's an outreach to voters. I don't believe that what either candidate did will shake the core support of the other camp. They probably both strengthened their core support. However, I tend to believe that undecided voters are not "low information" or "low engagement" voters, as the media suggest and/or appear to believe, but rather they are people who genuinely see the flaws of both candidates and are honestly trying to evaluate which is the better of two flawed choices. I believe that "debate talent" will rank very low on the criteria by which they will finally make up their minds. I think undecided voters are looking through the obfuscation to the meat of the issues.

Finally, as I've said a number of times now, this race is tight enough that turnout will matter, maybe more than any election I've seen in my lifetime. I think Clinton still has a bigger turnout challenge than Trump, based on the voting constituencies she is relying upon and based upon dissatisfaction among the Bernie crowd. This is still too tight too call, no matter how many times MSNBC or CNN want to trot out selective polling numbers to try to call this thing as over.
So you are trying to find an excuse for Trump's below par performances when you compare him to Clinton. It is a level playing field and that is why they are knit picked by the media, that Trump has issues with. Trump is the one that needs to attract the undecided voters. Many of these undecided ones do not only look for the speech content, but also the appearances that they portray and how they conduct themselves. Clinton looked really professional as well as presidential and even her makeup was flawless. When attacked by Trump she smiled and took it really well. Trump on the other hand looked tired and jaded, and his eyes seemed to have be the same shade as Clinton's lips. But, the Grumpy facial expression and constant child like remarks during Clinton's turn, will have not attracted that many undecided voters to his camp.
 
O

OnTheWayOut

If the Trump campaign doesn't want Russian intelligence influencing an American election they could easily nullify what the Russian spies have done by releasing all Trump's campaign manager's emails to the public.

Then everything would be equally on the table for both sides and the American people would have a fair comparison.

I guarantee you that Trump's campaign manager's emails are full of frank discussions of Trump's weaknesses, various schemes to undermine Trump's critics, schemes to damage Clinton, and a fair number of dirty tricks.

That's what happens. Election campaign play hardball.

You are seeing behind the curtain on the Clinton campaign because of foreign espionage against Clinton. You should assume that the Trump campaign has just as much dirty laundry that you aren't seeing because he wasn't targeted by the KGB.
Because Clinton did wrong we can assume everyone else in the world did wrong? You are fucking nuts, aren't you?
 

Jubee

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May 29, 2016
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Clinton wins, Cold War #2 that's it. No nuclear war.


Trump wins, who knows WTF happens, even he'll be surprised. lol
 
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