16 Democrat AGs Begin Inquisition Against ‘Climate Change Disbelievers’

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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There's no rational reason to believe that.
Sure there is, Exxon's research, burying of that research and then funding of propaganda has been exposed.
Exxon's Own Research Confirmed Fossil Fuels' Role in Global Warming Decades Ago

Top executives were warned of possible catastrophe from greenhouse effect, then led efforts to block solutions.
http://insideclimatenews.org/content/Exxon-The-Road-Not-Taken

Now you've gone from not just being a science denier to becoming a corporate apologist.
 

fuji

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There's no rational reason to believe that.

What this case is about is trying to chill dissent. It's a clear warning that anyone who is even suspected of disagreeing with Obama faces prosecution.
The rational reason to believe that would be internal company documents indicating that the company believed global warming was caused by fossil fuels. That's what this case is about: did they know one thing and say another and/or are there documents showing that they intentionally falsified data.
 

wilbur

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The rational reason to believe that would be internal company documents indicating that the company believed global warming was caused by fossil fuels. That's what this case is about: did they know one thing and say another and/or are there documents showing that they intentionally falsified data.
There are lots of contradicting documents to go by. There is not one study that either concludively proves or disproves the issue of global warming, or that man made factors are even the major cause of global warming. A company or individual should be allowed to express an opinion based on evidence that supports its points. The justice system has no business regulating what people should think, and why it thinks that.

Suppressing points of view that don't jive with group-think or political dogma is simply censorship. It stifles debate and scientific progress.

It is also unconstitutional in the US as far as the 1st amendment to its Bill of Rights.

If we follow the logic, then any entity that promotes the creationist theory should be prosecuted. Following the logic: the overwhelming evidence supports evolution and astrophysics theory. Yet, some people and organizations that actually run public services, or services available to the public such as schooboards, promote these views. Should they, in turn, be prosecuted for promoting 'false' notions? Those who say yes are promoting a Stalinist regime in the quest for the 'real truth'. Once we're in this boat, where does it stop? We're now into the realm of 'reeducation camps'.

Democracy can evolve into tyranny. That's when the majority imposes its will on the minority, for all kinds of self-serving reasons. The US founders were wary of tyranny, and that's why they guaranteed free speech.
 

Moviefan-2

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Oct 17, 2011
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The rational reason to believe that would be internal company documents indicating that the company believed global warming was caused by fossil fuels. That's what this case is about: did they know one thing and say another and/or are there documents showing that they intentionally falsified data.
Based on the so-called evidence, there's nothing rational about that conclusion.

Here's one of the studies that is being cited. It's a paper that was presented in 1968 by the Stanford Research Institute to the American Petroleum Institute:

https://www.smokeandfumes.org/#/documents/document16

Try reading the pages being cited. The research paper said that man-made CO2 emissions:

- Might cause the Earth to get warmer
- Might cause the Earth to get cooler

It also says it's unclear whether there would be any impact on the Earth's temperature.

Hello, McFly.

Those are pretty much the full range of possible outcomes. Furthermore, it is entirely speculative. It presents no certain evidence about anything.

Indeed, if the American Petroleum Institute had started talking about the possibility of a warming planet, it would soon have been at odds with the popular view among climate researchers. Just a few years after this paper was received, the dominant view in the climate community was that the planet was headed for another ice age.
 

Moviefan-2

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Democracy can evolve into tyranny. That's when the majority imposes its will on the minority, for all kinds of self-serving reasons. The US founders were wary of tyranny, and that's why they guaranteed free speech.
Exactly.

Everyone should read this post today by conservative pundit Mark Steyn, which includes commentary on the legal fight in Canada over his article in Maclean's about Islam. As Steyn rightly notes, "the process is the punishment."

http://www.steynonline.com/7515/where-the-streets-have-no-jokes-cont

No serious person believes the prosecution of ExxonMobil has anything to do with "fraud."

The whole point is to scare scientists and others into obedience by warning that anyone who expresses a view that is different from Obama's could be prosecuted on the most wafer-thin grounds imaginable.

It's an attack on free speech. And nothing else.

As law professor Glenn Reynolds wrote recently in USA Today:

Not everyone believes that the planet is warming; not everyone who thinks that it is warming agrees on how much; not everyone who thinks that it is warming even believes that laws or regulation can make a difference. Yet the goal of these state attorneys general seems to be to treat disagreement as something more or less criminal. That’s wrong. As the Supreme Court wrote in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...chneiderman-harris-exxon-cei-column/82878218/

Every person who believes in free speech, healthy democracies and the rule of law should be supporting ExxonMobil, regardless of their views on climate change.
 
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basketcase

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That's pretty funny considering how you responded to a published paper by your favourite scientists that confirmed there was a huge mismatch between the Earth's temperature anomalies in the 21st century and what was predicted.
????
 

Frankfooter

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Suppressing points of view that don't jive with group-think or political dogma is simply censorship. It stifles debate and scientific progress.
Exxon is a corporation, why are you assuming corporations have rights?

They have responsibilities that must be honoured. When tobacco companies continued selling products they knew caused cancer they were sued.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/tobacco-companies-ordered-to-pay-15b-in-damages-1.3095963

Exxon continued to sell products it knew cause climate change while actively trying to bury that information by funding sites that suckers like you think are legit.
Exxon Confirmed Global Warming Consensus in 1982 with In-House Climate Models

The company chairman would later mock climate models as unreliable while he campaigned to stop global action to reduce fossil fuel emissions.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...onsensus-in-1982-with-in-house-climate-models

Same deal. You sell products you know are harmful while at the same time lying to say that they aren't and you should be sued as well.
 

Frankfooter

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Exactly.

Everyone should read this post today by conservative pundit Mark Steyn, which includes commentary on the legal fight in Canada over his article in Maclean's about Islam. As Steyn rightly notes, "the process is the punishment."
What a garbage post, I tried to read the Steyn article but it was so poorly written it makes FAST look like Hemingway.
Steyn is free to say what he wants, but he keeps treading into slander and gets himself sued.
He's an idiot.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
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What a garbage post, I tried to read the Steyn article but it was so poorly written it makes FAST look like Hemingway.
Steyn is free to say what he wants, but he keeps treading into slander and gets himself sued.
He's an idiot.
Apparently, the article had too many big words for the guy who keeps flunking Grade 3.

Regardless, the article is must reading for everyone who wants to understand what is really going on here. To quote one paragrah:

As Barbara Amiel well understood, for every protracted expensive court battle that ends in a free-speech victory there are thousands and thousands of other publishers, editors, writers, comedians, film-makers, playwrights, directors, producers, cartoonists, artists who get the message that discretion is the better part of valour.
http://www.steynonline.com/7515/where-the-streets-have-no-jokes-cont

Contrary to what the Grade 3 failure said, Steyn has actually won all of his legal tussles so far.

But to a large extent, it doesn't matter. The time-consuming and costly process is the punishment. The whole point of these baseless prosecutions is to scare others into silence.

With the real-world scientific evidence going against them, the big climate crowd is trying to use the law to force allegiance to Obama's dogma. It is wrong and I believe it will backfire.

As I said, every person who believes in free speech, healthy democracies and the rule of law should be supporting ExxonMobil, regardless of their views on climate change.
 

Frankfooter

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Steyn has actually won all of his legal tussles so far.
.
The only thing Steyn has done is delay the case against him.
He's also paid by the Heartland Institute.
Isn't he also a high school dropout, which explains why his stories make sense to moviefan.

He's also just self-published a book, because what publisher would come near him, and in that book he's been found to use quotes like moviefan does.
If anybody cared what the clown wrote, of course, beside moviefan.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2...-attack-on-michael-mann-and-the-hockey-stick/

Meanwhile, to get back on topic, take a look at this chart which shows IPCC projections vs Exxon's internal report projections and reality.


http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2...-exxon-agu-asked-to-dump-big-oil-sponsorship/


Here we find that corporate funded research from Exxon agrees with publicly funded, peer assessment research through the IPCC. Which makes any claims that there is a conspiracy from publicly funded research look incredibly stupid.

Exxon's research agrees with the IPCC findings.
Think on it.
 

fuji

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Based on the so-called evidence, there's nothing rational about that conclusion.

Here's one of the studies that is being cited. It's a paper that was presented in 1968 by the Stanford Research Institute to the American Petroleum Institute:

https://www.smokeandfumes.org/#/documents/document16
Sorry but there is just no reason to believe that is what the AG's are building their case on. It is still in discovery phase and you just don't know.

They have said they are going after fraud. To actually show fraud that will need evidence that the company internally knew that results were being intentionally falsified, or that studies that proved global warming were being suppressed and kept internal, all the while public statements were being made that the company knew was false.

This case will turn on the content of emails and reports expressing the internal beliefs of the company. Studies will be introduced as evidence only to the extent that they were referenced by decision making in the company.
 

Moviefan-2

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Oct 17, 2011
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Sorry but there is just no reason to believe that is what the AG's are building their case on. It is still in discovery phase and you just don't know.
I believe in the rule of law. If the AG actually has grounds to think fraud has been committed, the AG has a duty to tell us what those grounds are.

There's no mystery here. This is a witch hunt that is aimed at silencing dissenters. No serious person believes it has anything to do with "fraud."

In fact, the research cited in the speculation paper that I referenced earlier would also have been known to climate researchers (Frankfooter appears to agree with me on this point). Yet, just a few years later, those publicly funded researchers attracted front-page headlines saying the planet is headed towards another ice age.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...+age+coming+hubert+lamb&pg=4365,2786655&hl=en

Are the climate researchers being investigated for "fraud"?

Get real.
 

Moviefan-2

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Oct 17, 2011
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The only thing Steyn has done is delay the case against him.
Actually, in the specific lawsuits involving Steyn and Mann (distinct from National Review and the Competitive Enterprise Institute), it is Mann who has been dragging things out. Steyn has been eager to go to court.

If anybody cared what the clown wrote, of course, beside moviefan.
This is the kind of "review" that Frankfooter likes -- a "review" by a Mann sycophant who hadn't actually read the "forthcoming" book.

People who have actually read the book agree that it is incredibly damning, with Mann's closest associates and friends challenging the merits of his work.

And, for the record, the quotes in Steyn's book are accurate and accurately described. Franky wouldn't know that, because -- like his preferred "reviewer" -- he's never read it.
 

fuji

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I believe in the rule of law. If the AG actually has grounds to think fraud has been committed, the AG has a duty to tell us what those grounds are.
Absolutely. And they will. In court.

There's no mystery here. This is a witch hunt that is aimed at silencing dissenters. No serious person believes it has anything to do with "fraud."
Bullshit.

Are the climate researchers being investigated for "fraud"?
No.

Companies are.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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I believe in the rule of law. If the AG actually has grounds to think fraud has been committed, the AG has a duty to tell us what those grounds are.
.
The AG would only go forward with a case if there are grounds to think fraud has committed and there is enough evidence to win a court case.

They have no duty to inform deniers anything, by the way.

The research that Exxon did, that came up with the numbers used in this chart shows that their research agrees with the IPCC's research. Hiding that research and deliberately funding propaganda for suckers like you makes that a crime of fraud.

 

Moviefan-2

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Oct 17, 2011
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Absolutely. And they will. In court.
You clearly don't believe in the rule of law.

In a just society, the AG is supposed to establish that there are grounds to believe a crime has been committed before subpoenas are issued.

Simply making baseless allegation isn't sufficient.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-04-08/subpoenaed-into-silence-on-global-warming

Every person who believes in freedom of speech and the rule of law should be supporting ExxonMobil.
 

Frankfooter

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You clearly don't believe in the rule of law.

In a just society, the AG is supposed to establish that there are grounds to believe a crime has been committed before subpoenas are issued.
.
And why do you think you have better information to make that decision then the AG?
Another Dunning-Kruger effect claim, combo of incredible ignorance with incredible over-confidence.

Every person who thinks corporations have a duty not to release harmful products and lie about it should be supporting this case.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
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And they did, in front of the judge who issued the subpoenas. Obviously...
Our legal experts on TERB could confirm this, but I'm pretty certain state attorney generals in the U.S. have the authority to issue their own subpoenas.

In any event, you should try reading Kafka's novel, The Trial.
 

Moviefan-2

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Oct 17, 2011
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Every person who thinks corporations have a duty not to release harmful products and lie about it should be supporting this case.
That's a completely baseless statement. There's no evidence that any such thing occurred. Nor is there any evidence that anyone has been releasing "harmful products."

Legal experts certainly don't think that is what is going on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...chneiderman-harris-exxon-cei-column/82878218/

The allegation of "fraud" appears to be at least partly based on the claim that ExxonMobil provided funding to groups such as the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which have challenged the Obama administration's views on climate change.

Disagreeing with Obama doesn't constitute "lying" or "fraud."

This is an attack on free speech, and nothing else.
 
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