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16 Democrat AGs Begin Inquisition Against ‘Climate Change Disbelievers’

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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The allegation of "fraud" appears to be at least partly based on the claim that ExxonMobil provided funding to groups such as the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which have challenged the Obama administration's views on climate change.

Disagreeing with Obama doesn't constitute "lying" or "fraud."

This is an attack on free speech, and nothing else.
The allegation of fraud is based on internal Exxon documents that showed they did their own research that mirrored the finding the IPCC, that AGW is real and that burning the fossil fuels they sold was the largest single cause.

Again, here is the chart that compares Exxon's findings to the IPCC's findings, showing that Exxon fully knew that their products cause climate change. Documents also show that Exxon hid this knowledge intentionally and then went and funded some of the propaganda sites that you still read and think legit.

They are partially responsible for fools like you who think there is doubt about the reality and causes of climate change.

 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
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The allegation of fraud is based on internal Exxon documents that showed they did their own research that mirrored the finding the IPCC, that AGW is real and that burning the fossil fuels they sold was the largest single cause.
The IPCC didn't exist in the 1960s, but no matter...

Leading climate researchers at the University of East Anglia and elsewhere had seen similar research yet they went out a few years later and predicted the Earth was headed towards another ice age.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...+age+coming+hubert+lamb&pg=4365,2786655&hl=en
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
94,243
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The IPCC didn't exist in the 1960s, but no matter...

Leading climate researchers at the University of East Anglia and elsewhere had seen similar research yet they went out a few years later and predicted the Earth was headed towards another ice age.
We are talking about Exxon in the '80's, idiot.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,864
8,652
113
Room 112
This is nothing but a political witch hunt. The science of climate change isn't settled today, let alone in 1981. The study Exxon did was related to a specific project which to this date still hasn't been undertaken. They had no obligation to release their findings then, or now. This Gestapo crap needs to end and end now.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
94,243
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This is nothing but a political witch hunt. The science of climate change isn't settled today, let alone in 1981. The study Exxon did was related to a specific project which to this date still hasn't been undertaken. They had no obligation to release their findings then, or now. This Gestapo crap needs to end and end now.
How brave of you to take a moral stance and defend that poor corporation, Exxon.
How dare they be held to the rule of the law, eh?

[/ sarcasm]
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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0
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is.gd
The IPCC didn't exist in the 1960s, but no matter...

Leading climate researchers at the University of East Anglia and elsewhere had seen similar research yet they went out a few years later and predicted the Earth was headed towards another ice age.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...+age+coming+hubert+lamb&pg=4365,2786655&hl=en
The question is really simple: at what point did Exxon's senior management come to believe that greenhouse gasses cause global warming? And after that point, did they order data to be falsified or make any public statements that internal documents show they knew to be false?

This isn't an investigation into researchers or scientists, it is an investigation into for profit companies.
 

jcpro

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2014
24,670
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Is anybody reading the titles of the threads or do we have canned responses? The Democrat AGs. This is a political hit job, nothing else. To even argue that there's a pinch of objectivity behind this fishing expedition is to deny reality itself.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
94,243
23,695
113
Is anybody reading the titles of the threads or do we have canned responses? The Democrat AGs. This is a political hit job, nothing else. To even argue that there's a pinch of objectivity behind this fishing expedition is to deny reality itself.
Nonsense. There are internal Exxon documents that show they did the research, buried the results and then went and funded disinformation.
Those documents are out there, its not a fishing expedition in the least, the evidence is clear.

Are you denying that Exxon did their own research that had similar results to the IPCC research?
 

jcpro

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2014
24,670
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Nonsense. There are internal Exxon documents that show they did the research, buried the results and then went and funded disinformation.
Those documents are out there, its not a fishing expedition in the least, the evidence is clear.

Are you denying that Exxon did their own research that had similar results to the IPCC research?
What tripe. Exxon, like any prudent company, looked into the problem because it can potentially affect their bottom line. They made an economic bet based on the research THEY financed. Disagreeing with some of their OWN findings is not suppression of evidence-whatever that may mean. They had a range of results and they went with their best guess. Unlike IPCC which has nothing on the line except government welfare, companies like Exxon have shareholders and employees to worry about and cannot act on every fad. As the chairman of ExxonMobil answered to a question why they don't invest more into renewables- “We choose not to lose money on purpose.”
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
172
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The question is really simple: at what point did Exxon's senior management come to believe that greenhouse gasses cause global warming? And after that point, did they order data to be falsified or make any public statements that internal documents show they knew to be false?

This isn't an investigation into researchers or scientists, it is an investigation into for profit companies.
"Knew to be false"?

This is 2016 and there is a great deal of disagreement about whether man-made emissions are a factor affecting changes in the climate.

http://business.financialpost.com/f...hy-it-looks-like-game-over-for-global-warming

In fact, arguments have been made that the planet may benefit from increased CO2: http://www.thegwpf.org/patrick-moore-should-we-celebrate-carbon-dioxide/

Computer model projections are not evidence. There is no possible way that ExxonMobil could have known in the 1980s whether the hypothesis is valid or not.

Actually, ExxonMobil's position in the 1980s -- that there is a great deal of uncertainty -- was entirely sensible. It is as true today as it was then.

You don't prosecute people or companies for questioning the government's dogma.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
62,235
6,944
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...

This is 2016 and there is a great deal of disagreement about whether man-made emissions are a factor affecting changes in the climate.....
Bullshit. There is a debate about how much of a factor it is, not whether it is a factor. Even the survey you posted a while back had a single digit percentage of scientists saying it had no effect.


It is sad that all your arguments come down to some government led scientific conspiracy.
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,659
287
83
The Keebler Factory
so when are they going after the liquor companies and the anti-vaccine movement that kill more people that denying climate alarmism?
So consumed with conspiracy theories and Evil Empire government plots.

Are you happy with your life? Seriously.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
94,243
23,695
113
"Knew to be false"?

...
Computer model projections are not evidence. There is no possible way that ExxonMobil could have known in the 1980s whether the hypothesis is valid or not.
They first learned about it in 1977, then did their own research up until the late '80s'.
At a meeting in Exxon Corporation's headquarters, a senior company scientist named James F. Black addressed an audience of powerful oilmen. Speaking without a text as he flipped through detailed slides, Black delivered a sobering message: carbon dioxide from the world's use of fossil fuels would warm the planet and could eventually endanger humanity.

"In the first place, there is general scientific agreement that the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels," Black told Exxon's Management Committee, according to a written version he recorded later.

It was July 1977 when Exxon's leaders received this blunt assessment, well before most of the world had heard of the looming climate crisis.

A year later, Black, a top technical expert in Exxon's Research & Engineering division, took an updated version of his presentation to a broader audience. He warned Exxon scientists and managers that independent researchers estimated a doubling of the carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration in the atmosphere would increase average global temperatures by 2 to 3 degrees Celsius (4 to 5 degrees Fahrenheit), and as much as 10 degrees Celsius (18 degrees Fahrenheit) at the poles. Rainfall might get heavier in some regions, and other places might turn to desert.

"Some countries would benefit but others would have their agricultural output reduced or destroyed," Black said, in the written summary of his 1978 talk.

His presentations reflected uncertainty running through scientific circles about the details of climate change, such as the role the oceans played in absorbing emissions. Still, Black estimated quick action was needed. "Present thinking," he wrote in the 1978 summary, "holds that man has a time window of five to ten years before the need for hard decisions regarding changes in energy strategies might become critical."

Exxon responded swiftly. Within months the company launched its own extraordinary research into carbon dioxide from fossil fuels and its impact on the earth. Exxon's ambitious program included both empirical CO2 sampling and rigorous climate modeling. It assembled a brain trust that would spend more than a decade deepening the company's understanding of an environmental problem that posed an existential threat to the oil business.

Then, toward the end of the 1980s, Exxon curtailed its carbon dioxide research. In the decades that followed, Exxon worked instead at the forefront of climate denial. It put its muscle behind efforts to manufacture doubt about the reality of global warming its own scientists had once confirmed. It lobbied to block federal and international action to control greenhouse gas emissions. It helped to erect a vast edifice of misinformation that stands to this day.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...confirmed-fossil-fuels-role-in-global-warming
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
172
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Yes. Knew to be false.

This is about what did the executives believe, and when, and internal emails and documents will be used to determine what they knew.
This is April 2016 and the climate researchers can't figure any of this stuff out. They don't know anything with any certainty (eg., the deep ocean argument that was offered up when the Earth's surface temperature didn't increase as predicted).

What do you think ExxonMobil knew in the 1980s, or any time after?

This is a perfect example of totalitarian justice. "We're investigating a crime. Confess now and it will save us the headache of trying to figure out what the crime was supposed to have been."
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
172
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Here is an editorial from the National Review that captures the issue perfectly. The parts in bold were highlighted by me.

---

An Attack on Us

by the editors

The Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian-leaning think tank that has been a loud and trenchant critic of global-warming activism, is under subpoena by the attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Islands, who demands that the organization produce a decade’s worth of communication on the subject of global warming.

Intending no slight to our friends and CEI and the fine work they do (some of which NRO has published), this isn’t about libertarian exegesis of meteorological data, but rather an attempt to fry up a much, much bigger fish: Exxon. Exxon was, in the past, a substantial donor to CEI; presumably, communication with Exxon is no small part of what the subpoena hopes to uncover. The open, naked promise to use prosecutorial powers as a political weapon is a prima facie abuse of office.

On March 29, a group of mainly Democratic attorneys general announced at a press conference (with former vice president and green-energy profiteer Al Gore in attendance) that they would seek to transform U.S. policy on climate change by “creatively” and “aggressively” deploying their prosecutorial powers. That, in and of itself, should raise an entire May Day parade’s worth of red flags: Prosecutors are in the business of enforcing the law, not rewriting it, and the open, naked promise to use prosecutorial powers as a political weapon is a prima facie abuse of office. In a self-respecting society, every one of those state attorneys general would have been impeached the next day. But this is the Age of Obama, not the Age of Self-Respect.

Claude Earl Walker, the attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Island, who promised a “transformational” use of his prosecutorial powers in the global-warming crusade, shortly thereafter issued a subpoena to Exxon, demanding private communication and other internal information as part of an investigation into the firm. Walker has not come even close to describing any crime committed by Exxon, much less a crime committed by Exxon in his jurisdiction, the U.S. Virgin Islands, where Exxon does no business, holds no assets, maintains no employees, and has no physical presence. Again, this is, in and of itself, a grotesque abuse of power.

But things get even a little weirder from there.

Exxon was not served the Virgin Islands subpoena by the authorities of the Virgin Islands, but by a private, Washington-based law firm, Cohen Milstein. You will not be shocked to learn that Cohen Milstein has a very large interest — millions and millions of dollars — in separate litigation being pursued against Exxon. You will be even less surprised to learn that the firm received a $15 million contingency-fee payment from Walker’s office in another matter, and we will be surprised still less if, as Exxon suggests, Cohen Milstein has a contingency interest in this new case against Exxon.

The case has unmistakable parallels to the shakedown of Chevron, in which a cabal of U.S.-based lawyers, left-wing activists with connections to the administrations of Barack Obama and Andrew Cuomo, working in conjunction with corrupt judges and officials in Ecuador attempted to extort billions of dollars from the energy giant. That case continued to advance until a federal judge threw it out as fraudulent — among other things, much of the evidence was manufactured — and recommended that a racketeering case be made against the defendants.

For Democrats, these cases represent a potential double dip: There is the possibility of winning a policy change by engaging in the political suppression of a hated adversary; short of that, there’s the possibility of a consolation prize in the form of a very large settlement from Exxon, which is the world’s most valuable company by market capitalization. And, with any luck, they might get both.

No one has offered the tiniest bit of persuasive evidence that Exxon has committed fraud or done anything other than pursue a policy agenda at odds with that preferred by Democratic activists. Regardless of one’s views on the global-warming debate, the proper venue for lawmaking is Congress and the state legislature, which are entrusted with that duty. It is true that fraud is not protected by the First Amendment, but no one — not Walker in the Virgin Islands or his Democratic colleagues pursuing similar cases in New York and California — has offered the tiniest bit of persuasive evidence that Exxon has committed fraud or done anything other than pursue a policy agenda at odds with that preferred by Democratic activists. The statute under which Walker is purporting to prosecute Exxon, the Criminally Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (CICO) contains quite specific criteria for the pursuit of a fraud case, including a prosecutable instance of actionable fraud within the past five years — a period of time not even covered by the CEI subpoena (which is for 1997–2007).

There is nothing even close to a plausible prosecutorial rationale in this case.

Using prosecutions to sort out policy differences is undiluted authoritarianism; delegating prosecutorial powers to a private law firm with a financial interest in seeing the target of a prosecution suffer is a gross violation of due process and legal norms; attempting to prosecute a firm for violations of Virgin Islands law when that firm does no business in the Virgin Islands and has no presence there is an obvious and indefensible abuse of office.

Unhappily for Exxon, the institution to which it might turn for relief — the U.S. Department of Justice — is, under the management of Loretta Lynch, dedicated to precisely this kind of banana-republic political persecution. Indeed, it is considering a case of its own.

What is at stake here isn’t Exxon’s share price. Exxon can afford to lose a lawsuit. What’s at stake here is nothing less than the rule of law and the maintenance of a free society, one in which people, think tanks, and businesses are not subject to prosecution for political activism on contentious public-policy questions. This is an attack not only on the First Amendment but on the entirety of the political process itself. It is a scandal, and voters in jurisdictions represented by members of the so-called Green 20 ought to be shocked and dismayed — and outraged — by what is being done in their name, with powers delegated by them to their attorneys general.

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...rprise-institute-subpoena-attack-exxon-us-all
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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This is April 2016 and the climate researchers can't figure any of this stuff out. They don't know anything with any certainty (eg., the deep ocean argument that was offered up when the Earth's surface temperature didn't increase as predicted).

What do you think ExxonMobil knew in the 1980s, or any time after?

This is a perfect example of totalitarian justice. "We're investigating a crime. Confess now and it will save us the headache of trying to figure out what the crime was supposed to have been."
None of that is relevant. What will be relevant are statements from internal company documents indicating what the executives of the company knew, and when they knew it.

You keep trying to position this as a debate over the science. It isn't.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
94,243
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113
Here is an editorial from the National Review that captures the issue perfectly. The parts in bold were highlighted by me.
Its a subpoena, if they didn't do anything wrong then they have nothing to worry about.
Same with Exxon, if they are innocent let the courts decide.
Why are you still claiming you know more about their innocence then the AG?

Why are you spending so much energy defending Exxon?
You don't have to worry that you'll get sued, its not illegal to be incredibly stupid.
Its only if you really know that climate change is occurring and are just lying that you have to worry.
But you're just stupid, correct?
 

eznutz

Active member
Jul 17, 2007
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Attorneys General Drafted ‘Agreement’ to Keep #ExxonKnew Strategy Secret, Emails Show
http://energyindepth.org/national/attorneys-general-agreement-exxonknew-secret-emails/

State officials in New York and Vermont strategized on how to avoid disclosing public documents relating to an investigation of ExxonMobil, according to newly released emails. The correspondence, first covered by Reuters, also shows the New York Office of the Attorney General instructing an environmental activist not to reveal details of a strategy meeting intended to broaden the campaign against Exxon.

Participants at the meeting included attorneys general from New York, Vermont, and 11 other states, as well as environmental lawyer Matthew Pawa and Peter Frumhoff from the Union of Concerned Scientists. According to other internal correspondence, participants in the meeting would coordinate talking points related to their current or future climate-related investigations, ahead of their press conference with Al Gore on March 29, 2016.

‘Okay with Refusing to Disclose’

In an email to Lem Srolovic with the New York Attorney General’s office, Vermont Assistant Attorney General Scott Kline expressed concerns about sharing documents related to the meeting, as they could be discoverable by public records requests. Nonetheless, Kline said “our office is okay with refusing to disclose covered documents,” assuming that doing so could be considered legal.

Members of the New York Attorney General’s office had requested a “Common Interest Agreement” to establish policies for sharing documents internally, as well as advice on how to avoid public disclosure.

In section 5 of the draft agreement, the parties would agree that if they were served with a public records request, they would “refuse to disclose any Shared Information unless otherwise required by law.” The agreement also dictated that anyone forced to disclose information related to the campaign must “immediately notify” other signatories.

The attempt to avoid disclosure came just three years after New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman expanded the disclosure requirements for nonprofits engaged in what he called “electioneering.” Schneiderman said the new rules, which were unveiled in 2013, were based on his concerns that certain groups were trying to “hide who has bankrolled” their activities.
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