Toronto Passions

European Refugee Crisis

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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It’s a warm summer night in Budapest as hundreds of people turn the concrete plaza around the main railway station into a refugee camp. The luckier ones have tents. Others stretch out on the steps leading to the subway, using water bottles as pillows. Others sleep on flattened boxes, so exhausted they are oblivious to the noise around them. One family perches on a ledge, their young daughter resting in her mother’s lap as her parents sway with fatigue.

Europe’s failure to forge a response to its greatest refugee crisis since the Second World War is now on full display in downtown Budapest. The human current flowing from Turkey to Greece, then on to Macedonia and Serbia, has struck an obstacle here in Hungary, where authorities are preventing migrants from boarding trains heading west.

Earlier Tuesday, rail traffic was temporarily suspended altogether. Then the hundreds of people hoping to travel were ejected from Budapest’s main Keleti station, even though some had tickets for trains to Germany. A heavy police presence at all entrances to the station prevented them from re-entering. They had nowhere to go and nowhere to stay; they could only sit outside the railway station and wait.

As night fell, there was no information on what would happen to the crowds of people gathered here. In front of the ornate glass façade of the station, a group of about 100 migrants conducted a kind of sit-in, waving makeshift signs and chanting slogans: “We want go! We want go!” and “Germany! Germany! Germany!”

Around the corner, a 30-year old man from Baghdad who would give his name only as Khaled, showed me his ticket for a train from Budapest to Munich for Tuesday and asked if I knew when it would depart. Nearby sat his wife and daughter, a two-year-old with curly hair wearing a pink sweatsuit.

“Where is the help? Is this Europe?” he asked, gesturing bitterly to the scene around him. “Macedonia did not stop us, Greece did not stop us. Why just here you make it hard?”

Khaled hoped to make it to a smaller European country, like Sweden or the Netherlands – somewhere he could quickly find a job, where the schools and hospitals were good, where his daughter could learn to speak another language. “A good life,” he said. “In Iraq we don’t have life.”

The hundreds of people spending the night outside Budapest’s railway station are hostages in a broader European crisis as political leaders dither over how to respond to the flow of refugees and migrants from the Middle East and Africa. For now Hungary is not allowing them to leave, nor is it eager for them to stay.

According to European Union rules, refugees must submit their claims for asylum in the first country where they arrive. In practice, countries like Greece have allowed people arriving from Turkey to move on to places like Germany.

In the meantime, the scenes unfolding at the heart of a European capital are hard to comprehend. Across the street from a Burger King, a McDonald’s and a Western Union, babies sleep on concrete as their parents wait and watch. The subterranean passage leading to the adjoining subway station is now an encampment, with hundreds of people sprawled on the floor – many from Syria, but also Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. I count four portable toilets. Volunteers hand out bottles of water, diapers and apples, but it’s clear the situation is untenable.

SNIP....

Then he has a thought. “Canada is big,” he says. “Why not say, ‘Syria, come’?”



Link to rest

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...event-migrants-from-boarding/article26172535/
 

james t kirk

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A situation that is getting worse by the day it seems. With no easy solution in sight.

But watching this unfold, I have to admit, my one thought is, "put them all on a boat and send them back"

Seriously.

Taking millions of people into Europe from failed Islamic countries will overwhelm Europe. Follow the Australian model and deport each and every one of them immediately. Tell them (like the Australians) that they need to follow the correct procedure for immigrating period. No exceptions.

I know many of you will say, "you're a racist" for saying what I'm saying, however, my opinion on this is that "the west" is successful for all the reasons that these people abhor - mainly that we are a secular society based on personal freedoms. Yes, yes, there are religious whack jobs in the bible belt in the United States and other places in the west, but they are in the minority and our system of laws is not based on a stone age mentality. (You racist JTK.) 99% of the those now flooding into Europe will never assimilate, their children will not assimilate, and their grand children will not assimilate. (Yeah, but they said the same thing about Italians coming to Canada after World War 2).

I was watching the news last night and they showed a mob of refugees (so called) screaming and yelling and jumping up and down for the cameras and I thought, how typical. I've seen this kind of stupid shit a hundred times on TV. It must be some sort of "Protesting 101" that all middle eastern people get taught at school.

Interesting how every one of them seem to have their sights set on Germany. Not Greece, not Eastern Europe - Germany. Obviously, it's because they see economic opportunity in Germany.

Imagine if Germany takes on millions of muslims overnight. The German way of life will be wiped out.

The best thing to do is that these people return to their own countries and work to establish a free society free from intolerance and a secular one at that. Make their countries work. The west can help them do that. But we cannot accept millions of people who only want to come to the west for economic reasons. Sorry.
 

red

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Nov 13, 2001
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There is some sense to what you say but the problem is the west meddled in the region and has some responsibility for what happened.

Some- not all. So we send them back and then what. We need a plan to rebuild the political structure there.
 

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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There is some sense to what you say but the problem is the west meddled in the region and has some responsibility for what happened.

Some- not all. So we send them back and then what. We need a plan to rebuild the political structure there.
I'm not sure I buy the meddling thing. The entire region is based on religious extremism. Islam and the fundamentalist Muslim culture is the law of the land. The west had absolutely 0 to do with that. Quite the opposite in fact.

I was in the process of editing and adding to my second post.

The only solution I see for these people is that they go back to their own countries and work to establish a secular society with the fundamental freedoms that we in the west already have. In that way, they could emulate the west and be more successful. The west did not become successful because we are the geographic equivalent of the lucky sperm club. Success did not happen in the west by chance. It happened because people here worked hard and we built a system of government (for better or for worse) that was based on democracy and freedom. In addition to that, we had a reformation in Christianity that rejected the church from the running of the country (though I am not so naïve to think that the church would not love to be back at the head of government if they could)

There is not a single country in the world that I can think of where the laws of the country are based on fundamental religious law (dogma) and that country is a success. And more specifically, there is not a single Islamic country in the entire world that is successful. They are all variations on a theme - the theme being failures. In fact, they more hard core Islamic countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen) are greater failures than the moderate Islamic countries (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan). So I would say that the level of economic success inversely proportional to the level of fundamentalism (in any country for that matter.)

The abject failure of the Islamic countries is proof positive that in order for a country to be successful, that country must reject religion as head of government. Until such time as the Islamic countries figure that out, they will continue with the status quo as we see before us now. And that being said, I do not want to import this line of fundamentalist religious intolerance into Canada and I really doubt that most Europeans do either.
 

shogun89

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It was America mainly who meddled with these regions so why should dozens of European countries who had nothing to do with it be flooded with these migrants and over generations be bred out of existence all together?

These liberals in Europe, for such a short time in power are literally ruining it forever. Why must they be either extreme right wing or extreme left wing? Find a balance for fuck sakes.
 

red

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I wasn't talking about countries being islamic- the west has destabilized the regimes in the middle east and that hass resulted in the refugee crisis.

Islam started it. They have attacked the west and christian societies since their inception. Much of the middle east was christian before islam. So yes they were and remain anti-western society.

How should we deal with that problem? You raise valid points about their assimilation into our society. Just shipping them back isn't the whole answer- we still need to deal with the problem or they will keep coming
 

shogun89

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I wasn't talking about countries being islamic- the west has destabilized the regimes in the middle east and that hass resulted in the refugee crisis.

Islam started it. They have attacked the west and christian societies since their inception. Much of the middle east was christian before islam. So yes they were and remain anti-western society.


How should we deal with that problem? You raise valid points about their assimilation into our society. Just shipping them back isn't the whole answer- we still need to deal with the problem or they will keep coming

They've been trying relentlessly to conquer Europe for over a thousand years, and now they may just succeed through the back door thanks to the naivety and idiocy of the lib labs. The lib labs have turned their own countries into the worlds door mats so as not to offend anyone.
 

red

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They've been trying relentlessly to conquer Europe for over a thousand years, and now they may just succeed through the back door thanks to the naivety and idiocy of the lib labs. The lib labs have turned their own countries into the worlds door mats so as not to offend anyone.
Well if you are christian then you feel a duty to help those in need.

If we turn them back and dont have a plan then this problem doesnt go away

Its like invading iraq, firing all of the govt and then throwing up your hands and leaving with no govt to take over and wondering why a group of crazies are jumping into the power vortex
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I'm not sure I buy the meddling thing. The entire region is based on religious extremism. Islam and the fundamentalist Muslim culture is the law of the land. The west had absolutely 0 to do with that. Quite the opposite in fact.
....
But to many people, the proxy war between Iran and Saudi doesn't matter because it's all the fault of the US. I actually feel it is the modern version of the Victorian 'White Man's Burden' where people infer that non-Westerners are incapable of independent thought and are therefore just puppets of the evil American empire.

Europe (like shogun) has some extremely xenophobic tendencies. Hungary for example is very open about it. Obviously accepting refugees puts economic and social strains on society but that is not what's driving Europe's reluctance.
 

basketcase

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I wasn't talking about countries being islamic- the west has destabilized the regimes in the middle east and that hass resulted in the refugee crisis....
The Shia/Sunni conflict has been destabilizing the region for over a thousand years and it just hopped on the bandwagon of conflict that goes back to the start of civilization with Elam battling the Sumerians. Under various authoritarian regimes that conflict has been suppressed at times but there are some very old hatreds that aren't going away and have emerged any time they can. At times, the West or the Ottomans or the Mongols have taken advantage of this perpetual state of conflict but they did not cause it.

Simply put, history (and the instability in the Middle East) didn't start in 1900 AD.
 

basketcase

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...

Let the stinking rich gulf states take in these muslims. They can afford it! Maybe they can do some good with their money for a change rather than building more opulent palaces in the desert and funding terrorism far and wide.
.....
I agree with that. They should be doing more but considering the way they treat their own poor, I doubt they will so should we just leave them locked in trucks?
 

james t kirk

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Check out this video clip....

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...-path-of-refugees-seeking-eu-asylum-1.3212395

I love the one guy in the orange shirt with BBall on it. He takes the cake. The attitude on him that he should just be able to do what he wants.

And the last guy who was saying that they want nothing from Hungary, so why are they stopping us, just let us pass. (Presumably to Germany.) So all these people are just economic refugees basically.
 

red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
Nov 13, 2001
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The Shia/Sunni conflict has been destabilizing the region for over a thousand years and it just hopped on the bandwagon of conflict that goes back to the start of civilization with Elam battling the Sumerians. Under various authoritarian regimes that conflict has been suppressed at times but there are some very old hatreds that aren't going away and have emerged any time they can. At times, the West or the Ottomans or the Mongols have taken advantage of this perpetual state of conflict but they did not cause it.

Simply put, history (and the instability in the Middle East) didn't start in 1900 AD.
It didnt end then either. When the west invaded iraq in 2003 it started the chain of events that lead to where we are now. They went invaded but had no real plan on what to do afterwards. They disbanded the army but all that did was leave a bunch of armed unemployed guys who were angry at the west.

Once the us left- there was a power vaccum and it was filled by people with guns.

Bombing syria and libya has had similar consequences.

Is it all the west's fault? No- I said they bear some responsibility. You can say send them back and pretend its going to go away but thats not how the world works
 

mandrill

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Problem is....

.... Every Western country signed an international agreement to accept refugees in 1947(?) after it came to light than six million Jews had been murdered in Germany because no Western country would take them in the late 1930's. So there was more than enough guilt, blame and embarrassment to go around and the way out was to sign an undertaking that it would never happen again.

To refuse to take refugees means that the present day governments of those countries are reneging on the principles of their grandfathers and essentially saying "Fuck it! We'll go back to letting all the Jews fry in ovens and we don't give a shit!" Which is an embarrassing thing to have to admit you believe in.

Or let's leave the Jews out of it because they're doing just fine now?! okay, who's going to be the first to admit that the Syrians can fry and we'd save the Jews - because after all, the Syrians are rude and smelly and wear funny orange t-shirts and we socialize with Jews and have dinner with them.

It amounts to a fundamental repudiation of post war Western democratic values, as accepted by pretty much every expert, legal authority or reputable spokesperson - as opposed to Right Wing neo Nazi Yahoo.
 

james t kirk

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Problem is....

.... Every Western country signed an international agreement to accept refugees in 1947(?) after it came to light than six million Jews had been murdered in Germany because no Western country would take them in the late 1930's. So there was more than enough guilt, blame and embarrassment to go around and the way out was to sign an undertaking that it would never happen again.

To refuse to take refugees means that the present day governments of those countries are reneging on the principles of their grandfathers and essentially saying "Fuck it! We'll go back to letting all the Jews fry in ovens and we don't give a shit!" Which is an embarrassing thing to have to admit you believe in.

Or let's leave the Jews out of it because they're doing just fine now?! okay, who's going to be the first to admit that the Syrians can fry and we'd save the Jews - because after all, the Syrians are rude and smelly and wear funny orange t-shirts and we socialize with Jews and have dinner with them.

It amounts to a fundamental repudiation of post war Western democratic values, as accepted by pretty much every expert, legal authority or reputable spokesperson - as opposed to Right Wing neo Nazi Yahoo.
Completely wrong analogy.

The refugees from the middle east that we see inundating Europe now are not there because their survival is threatened. They are economic refugees. This can be seen in the fact that pretty much each and every one of them wants to go to Germany. Germany being the economic engine of Europe. You can see that in the video link I posted above. They specifically are chanting (in English for the North American camera crew) "Germany, Germany, Germany". Both of the other 2 guys they interviewed specifically state that they want to go to Germany. One guy even says that they don't want anything from Hungary, except be allowed to pass through Hungary and he is rather put off that the Hungarians aren't allowing him to do what he wants. (Because let's face it, Hungary is a lot poorer than Germany.) If they were running for their lives like the Jews were in 1939, they'd be happy to be anywhere, anywhere where they knew that they weren't going to be killed. But nope, it's Germany or bust. (I would sure hate to be Germany right now. It's only a matter of time before the Hungarians play pass the hot potato.)

Now in 1930's Germany (ironically), they were gearing up for the holocaust. They were stripping Jews of all their rights, they were confiscating their property, and they were sending them to work camps, etc. etc.

The Islamic refuges are not being threatened with death. They have been uprooted by war in some cases, in other cases, their lives are not what they would want, and in other cases they figure that they will jump on the band wagon. But they are not facing concentration camps and they are not facing death. They simply want to go to Germany where they figure they will make a good living and live a German standard of living (but let's be honest, they will never adopt German values. If anything, they will figure that Germany should accommodate their values.)

And as far as it goes, if they are fleeing persecution, then why not head for Lebanon, or Jordan, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Dubai, or any other number of Islamic countries that have not been touched by war whatsoever? (Rhetorical Question.) The Americans may have fucked up Iraq, but they had nothing to do with Syria (the Americans despise Assad with a passion) and they were taken by surprise in Libya where there were initially high hopes that democracy would finally take hold (more like one whack job succeeds another whack job.)
 

red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
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While some are economic refugees to say that all are would be incorrect. Many are fleeing isis or the war in syria- assad bombs cities and gases civilians. They certainly are at risk of life and death.

While the people in hungary in the video are trying to get to germany they arent the sum total of refugees fleeing. This is a large humanitarian crisis with millions displaced in refugee camps in turkey and other countries.
 

Twister

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Aug 24, 2002
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While some are economic refugees to say that all are would be incorrect. Many are fleeing isis or the war in syria- assad bombs cities and gases civilians. They certainly are at risk of life and death.

While the people in hungary in the video are trying to get to germany they arent the sum total of refugees fleeing. This is a large humanitarian crisis with millions displaced in refugee camps in turkey and other countries.
I agree many are just migrants, I have lots of friends in Italy and they're going nuts. The migrants are refusing food provided by the Government, lots of pictures with food trays thrown in the garbage, they pull down their pants and shit anywhere, lots of rape. The Italians are protesting in the street against the migrants and Government, they don't have jobs and housing and migrants are given apartments. Its a mess.
 

james t kirk

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I agree many are just migrants, I have lots of friends in Italy and they're going nuts. The migrants are refusing food provided by the Government, lots of pictures with food trays thrown in the garbage, they pull down their pants and shit anywhere, lots of rape. The Italians are protesting in the street against the migrants and Government, they don't have jobs and housing and migrants are given apartments. Its a mess.
The reason they refuse the food is because it is not halal.

The reason they shit everywhere is because they are not the Muslim squat toilets.
 

trtinajax

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Apr 7, 2008
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Well if you are christian then you feel a duty to help those in need.

If we turn them back and dont have a plan then this problem doesnt go away

Its like invading iraq, firing all of the govt and then throwing up your hands and leaving with no govt to take over and wondering why a group of crazies are jumping into the power vortex
If Europe and the West accept all these migrants how long will Christianity and other religions be permitted to exist in the west? I find it hard to image that millions of these migrants all woke up one morning and in unison said "Hey I've got a great idea, let's go to Europe". Somebody started this migration & I believe it was either ISIS to infiltrate their terrorists or the Islamic cleric hoping to overwhelm the west and create Islamic States through-out Europe and North America. The people who want to re-settle what is really an invasion of a foreign army are really guilty of treason against their homeland. Has anyone noticed that it was Obama that started and encouraged the Arab Spring when he first got into office that has created all the mid-eastern turmoil? And now that he is supposed to give up the Presidency within 12 months we suddenly have a huge migration of Muslims into the west not to say anything about the Mexican invasion taking place across the US southern board. My American friends were predicting 6 - 7 years ago that Obama would create a massive crisis just before his term was up giving him an excuse to suspend the American constitution and retain power. Their prophesy is looking more and more right as the days pass.
 

IRIS

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And all of them are innocent civilians!



The left pictures is took in Aleppo (Syria) in 2015 January. It show a 30 years old Vahabiti gunman Laith Al-Saleh.
The right pictures took at Kos Island in Greece this summer. He just waits there as a refuggee for the ferries what bring him to Europe.
 
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