The New Racists: Jew Hate

[fuji]

Nottyboi and Perry Mason make great points. The Israelis act like Germans and Palestinians were originally judeans 1500 years ago it so. If the Jews want 2 thousand year old history to work for them than the Palestinians r entitled to the same eternal claims.
In the end though it's all just racism. People love to divide them selves up ito ethniv groups and lap up racist bullshit which their leaders use to make war and control people and make money.
This will be the undoing of our species.

Nobody is making any eternal claims on this thread other then the pro Palestinians who think all of Israel is occupied territory.

Israel is legitimate because its government was elected by a majority of its people, all of whom have full voting rights. It is the most legitimate government in the middle east, being the only fully democratic one. Tunisia is second.

 

[jcpro]

Nottyboi and Perry Mason make great points. The Israelis act like Germans and Palestinians were originally judeans 1500 years ago it so. If the Jews want 2 thousand year old history to work for them than the Palestinians r entitled to the same eternal claims.
In the end though it's all just racism. People love to divide them selves up ito ethniv groups and lap up racist bullshit which their leaders use to make war and control people and make money.
This will be the undoing of our species.

There were no Palestinian "judeans" 1500 years ago. The majority of the population until 2nd CE were Jews. Well into 7th century they were a major group. At the end of the 19th century the total population was under 300k. Nobody wanted to live in the most backward corner of the Ottoman Empire. Not even the Arabs who were mostly nomads, anyway. Comparing the current conflict to the Nazi era tragedy says two things. One-the speaker is an ignoramus about history. Two-he's a Jew hater.

 

[toguy5252]

There were no Palestinian "judeans" 1500 years ago. The majority of the population until 2nd CE were Jews. Well into 7th century they were a major group. At the end of the 19th century the total population was under 300k. Nobody wanted to live in the most backward corner of the Ottoman Empire. Not even the Arabs who were mostly nomads, anyway. Comparing the current conflict to the Nazi era tragedy says two things. One-the speaker is an ignoramus about history. Two-he's a Jew hater.

Only on a board inhabited in part by anti-Semites could a post, which should have lasted 2 or 3 posts longer with everyone agreeing that the decision was abominable and indefensible, devolve into a debate about the legitimacy of the Jews in Israel. Really quite funny although also quite pathetic and a function of what has become the increasing acceptability of antisemitism.

 

[Ulan Bator]

There is no doubt that anti-Semitism is on the rise but for that you can blame the policies of the Israeli government. Of course, there are apologists out there who will insist apples are oranges or red is really blue and it is a hideous and disgraceful form of denial, spin or disinformation. The old saying still applies -- 'If it walks like a duck......'

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.671538

 

[toguy5252]

There is no doubt that anti-Semitism is on the rise but for that you can blame the policies of the Israeli government. Of course, there are apologists out there who will insist apples are oranges or red is really blue and it is a hideous and disgraceful form of denial, spin or disinformation. The old saying still applies -- 'If it walks like a duck......'

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.671538

Why is it that the people who blame Israel for the rise in antisemitism tend to be the same one who object to Isreal identifying as a Jewish state.

 

[basketcase]

There is no doubt that anti-Semitism is on the rise but for that you can blame the policies of the Israeli government. Of course, there are apologists out there who will insist apples are oranges or red is really blue and it is a hideous and disgraceful form of denial, spin or disinformation. The old saying still applies -- 'If it walks like a duck......'

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.671538

Ah, blame the Jews for people hating them. I think I've heard that concept before.

 

[basketcase]

Still waiting for notty to give a single example of this banned artist being racist.


I guess he's too interested in defending racist hatred to actually look at facts.

 

[IM469]

Nobody is making any eternal claims on this thread other then the pro Palestinians who think all of Israel is occupied territory.

That's bullshit and again cherry picking any wild and grossly ridiculous historical centuries old claims on one small portion of Israel then topped off with the usual Israel bullshit defense of Racism for anyone who opposes the annexing and suppression of indigenous people on land grabbed by military force.

I have stated that I believe Israel has the right to exist in the international bounders set out and ratified by the UN Resolution 181. PERIOD The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory. According to the fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 (Reaffirmed in 2005) basically any territory gained through military conquest is occupied territory and not considered a part of a new international border. This was to stop aggression such as Germany, Japan ... let's see .. who else has annexed territory with military might and then suppressed resistance (aka France's freedom fighters in WWII) ? Let me see ... it's coming to me ...

So Fuji - stop your misleading talk that my argument is against Israel - that's bullshit - it's a push to get Israel out of militarily seized and held territory and back within it's own borders. You can't invade other countries and then put on a self-righteous indignation that both the indigenous people and the neighboring countries aren't going to be upset.

 

[toguy5252]

That's bullshit and again cherry picking any wild and grossly ridiculous historical centuries old claims on one small portion of Israel then topped off with the usual Israel bullshit defense of Racism for anyone who opposes the annexing and suppression of indigenous people on land grabbed by military force.

I have stated that I believe Israel has the right to exist in the international bounders set out and ratified by the UN Resolution 181. PERIOD The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory. According to the fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 (Reaffirmed in 2005) basically any territory gained through military conquest is occupied territory and not considered a part of a new international border. This was to stop aggression such as Germany, Japan ... let's see .. who else has annexed territory with military might and then suppressed resistance (aka France's freedom fighters in WWII) ? Let me see ... it's coming to me ...

So Fuji - stop your misleading talk that my argument is against Israel - that's bullshit - it's a push to get Israel out of militarily seized and held territory and back within it's own borders. You can't invade other countries and then put on a self-righteous indignation that both the indigenous people and the neighboring countries aren't going to be upset.

"What counts is Israel is occupying territory it does not have any historical rights to since it has gone far beyond the old Jewish quarter. "

Gee I wonder who said this and what the "Jewish Quarter has to do with the "internationally recognized boundaries of Israel" or land that "Israel acquired by conquest". Crazy thing about the internet is that it leaves a record of what you really said and not what you are now attempting to rewrite. But nice try.

 

[basketcase]

...
So Fuji - stop your misleading talk that my argument is against Israel - that's bullshit - it's a push to get Israel out of militarily seized and held territory and back within it's own borders. You can't invade other countries and then put on a self-righteous indignation that both the indigenous people and the neighboring countries aren't going to be upset.

Speaking of bullshit, you might actually want to read some history. The Jewish leadership at the time accepted the UN partition plan. They said yes.

Sadly there was a group that chose to ignore it and declared war instead of accepting it. Those same people then decided that the Palestinian part of the Partition shouldn't be an independent state and then took it over. Those same people then decided that although they were unable to destroy Israel militarily that they would still refuse to accept Israel's existence and continued their support for attacks on Israel. To this day, there are still prominent factions among the Palestinians (including their last elected legislature) who still refuse to accept Israel's existence, whether withing the Green Line, the Partition plan lines, or even a single city.

You have clearly stated you oppose a two state peace which means you oppose Israel existing. Now when called out you try and backtrack but still refuse to assign any responsibility to the Palestinians and Arab leadership.

 

[jcpro]

That's bullshit and again cherry picking any wild and grossly ridiculous historical centuries old claims on one small portion of Israel then topped off with the usual Israel bullshit defense of Racism for anyone who opposes the annexing and suppression of indigenous people on land grabbed by military force.

I have stated that I believe Israel has the right to exist in the international bounders set out and ratified by the UN Resolution 181. PERIOD The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory. According to the fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 (Reaffirmed in 2005) basically any territory gained through military conquest is occupied territory and not considered a part of a new international border. This was to stop aggression such as Germany, Japan ... let's see .. who else has annexed territory with military might and then suppressed resistance (aka France's freedom fighters in WWII) ? Let me see ... it's coming to me ...

So Fuji - stop your misleading talk that my argument is against Israel - that's bullshit - it's a push to get Israel out of militarily seized and held territory and back within it's own borders. You can't invade other countries and then put on a self-righteous indignation that both the indigenous people and the neighboring countries aren't going to be upset.

Borders are not determined by resolutions, but by facts on the ground. Most recently that was demonstrated by Russia in Crimea. But also by Poland in Silesias, Pomerania and Prussia. Russia in Finland, Prussia, Ukraine, etc. United States Spanish and Mexican episodes, France in Sardinia(just to name one). China in Tybet, Russia in the Far East. The list is endless. Not many are complaining because there aren't that many Jews there. There's no way Israel will allow a hostile state in the center of it. Not if they have a death wish. Resolutions, international guarantees, proclamations, as history teaches time after time, are for fools.

 

[TESLAMotors]

That's bullshit and again cherry picking any wild and grossly ridiculous historical centuries old claims on one small portion of Israel then topped off with the usual Israel bullshit defense of Racism for anyone who opposes the annexing and suppression of indigenous people on land grabbed by military force.

I have stated that I believe Israel has the right to exist in the international bounders set out and ratified by the UN Resolution 181. PERIOD The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory. According to the fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 (Reaffirmed in 2005) basically any territory gained through military conquest is occupied territory and not considered a part of a new international border. This was to stop aggression such as Germany, Japan ... let's see .. who else has annexed territory with military might and then suppressed resistance (aka France's freedom fighters in WWII) ? Let me see ... it's coming to me ...

So Fuji - stop your misleading talk that my argument is against Israel - that's bullshit - it's a push to get Israel out of militarily seized and held territory and back within it's own borders. You can't invade other countries and then put on a self-righteous indignation that both the indigenous people and the neighboring countries aren't going to be upset.

Damn, that was well said. Fuji loves to mislead, it seems to be his M.O. in rebuttals and debates.

 

[IM469]

You have clearly stated you oppose a two state peace which means you oppose Israel existing.

No, in the most simplistic rules of logic does your assumption make sense and considering that I have already told you that I agree to the right existence of Israel in the original borders provers that you really don't give a f*ck about any other solution other than letting Israel continue it's military occupation and suppression of the indigenous populations.

I said I would like to see Israel out of land occupied through military expansion ... that is not part of the 'two state' peace plan supported by Israel. They have no intention of giving up land and f*ck any rights of the indigenous population. Recently Israel put another settlement of 3,000 homes on occupied territory - a move that the US admitted is a counterproductive move. And Israel has continued activities to make the two state solution less likely. " In January 2012 the European Union Heads of Mission report on East Jerusalem found that Israel's continuing settlement activities and the fragile situation of the Palestinian population in East Jerusalem, as well in area C, was making a two-state solution less likely." Israel is playing international politics and settlements to solidify their hold on occupied territory ignoring the increasingly frustration of the indigenous people who rightly belong there.

 

[Ulan Bator]

Ah, blame the Jews for people hating them. I think I've heard that concept before.

Obviously you didn't even bother reading the Haaretz article - probably because you're more interested in demagoguery than facts which doesn't surprise me because that's all Israeli apologists can do when confronted with the blowback created by the actions of the Israeli state. At any rate, let me help you here. The article states the case for Israel being, in fact, what every clear thinking person suspects it to be, namely a cruel, apartheid state. And, naturally enough, the illegal, brutal and racist treatment of indigenous Palestinians invariably creates 'blowback', much of which is the anti-Semitism we see more and more of today.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.671538

 

[fuji]

Nobody is making any eternal claims on this thread other then the pro Palestinians who think all of Israel is occupied territory.

Israel is legitimate because its government was elected by a majority of its people, all of whom have full voting rights. It is the most legitimate government in the middle east, being the only fully democratic one. Tunisia is second.

That's bullshit and again cherry picking any wild and grossly ridiculous historical centuries old claims on one small portion of Israel

Learn to fucking read. Nobody is making any centuries old claims. Israel was legitimate in 1948 because in 1948 it had the support is a majority of its citizens. It is legitimate in 2015 because it has the support of a majority of its citizens.

Nobody but you is talking about history. You seem to think that the will of a majority of citizens should be overturned by historical claims. Only you are making that argument and is is a bullshit argument.

Democracy in the here and now legitimizes Israel.

Full stop

I have stated that I believe Israel has the right to exist in the international bounders set out and ratified by the UN Resolution 181. PERIOD The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory. According to the fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 (Reaffirmed in 2005)

.

The UN and international community consider Israel's expansion as occupied territory.

Wrong. The UN recognized the boundary change in 48 that resulted from the Arabs losing the illegal war of aggression they started. That territory is recognized as Israel. Also you can't apply a 1949 convention to a 1948 war particularly since it concluded with Jordan signing a peace treaty recognizing Israeli sovereignty over the land.

The UN has no opinion on where the border should be after the 1967 war and has called for it to be negotiated. The UN had certainly challenged the settlements and been heavily critical of them but that is not a claim that the territory they are on isn't Israeli because the border itself has never been settled.

Once a peace treaty is signed if that land is in Israel there is no wrong done.

 

[nottyboi]

Nope. Germany clearly had a direct role. What are you, a holocaust denier now too?

The people who took the homes had no direct role. And Israel was instrumental in seizing Arab property by legislative fiat in the chaos of war. Israelis are settling on land they KNOW is not part of Israel. So the people flee chaos, Isreal slams the door behind them, takes their property and bombs them. NICE..

 

[nottyboi]

Nobody is making any eternal claims on this thread other then the pro Palestinians who think all of Israel is occupied territory.

Israel is legitimate because its government was elected by a majority of its people, all of whom have full voting rights. It is the most legitimate government in the middle east, being the only fully democratic one. Tunisia is second.

No one is denying Israel is a legitimate nation in principal, but its expansionism is not. It has really no right to lands it has taken, Even spoils of war need to be returned, just as Israel returned the Sinai it must return land it took if it really wants peace....but it does not.

 

[fuji]

The people who took the homes had no direct role. And Israel was instrumental in seizing Arab property by legislative fiat in the chaos of war. Israelis are settling on land they KNOW is not part of Israel. So the people flee chaos, Isreal slams the door behind them, takes their property and bombs them. NICE..

Israel has committed to make whole people who lost property, and did not ethnically cleanse them.

Second you are lying when you say they know it is not Israel. No one knows that. No one knows where the border will be. You can say that they do not KNOW it is Israel, but equally they do not KNOW it isn't either.

The Green Line is not a border and the UN had explicitly said it cannot be considered a border. The border will be negotiated and if the settlements wind up on the Israeli side then no wrong was done.
.

 

[fuji]

It has really no right to lands it has taken,

You have no reason to believe that. Israel had clear recognized sovereignty over the territory it captured in 1947/48, with Jordan having signed a peace treaty recognizing Israeli jurisdiction and the UN having endorsed that deal.

The 1967 war is less clear, the green line is an armistice line rather than a border and clearly it is presumptuous of Israel to unilaterally decide where the border is, but given Palestinian intransigence that is also a way forward. Palestinians unilaterally declared a state, Israel unilaterally declared a border.

Olmerts offer gave the Palestinians equal land elsewhere so there is nothing clearly unfair about declaring the settlements Israel and the swap resolves core strategic issues like the Tel Aviv wasp waist.

 

[basketcase]

No, in the most simplistic rules of logic does your assumption make sense and considering that I have already told you....

What you've already said is you think Jews have no business beyond the Jewish quarter of the Old city. Of course you then contradict yourself by saying the original partition that Arab leadership reused did not include the Jewish Quarter as part of Israel.


Fact is the original Partition plan failed because the Arabs states didn't want it and went to war. The Green Line was the result of that war and that is what most people including the Arab League see as the basis for a two state peace.

Also fact is that the party last elected to the Palestinian legislature is outright opposed to Israeli existing in any form. It is pathetic that you insist that blame lies solely on Israel despite 70+ years of Arab/Palestinian leadership being opposed to Partition or Israel's existence. Israel's leaders accepted the Peel Commission plan in 1937. They accepted the 1948 Partition plan. They offered the West Bank back to Jordan in their peace deal. They have made numerous offers for a two state peace, the most recent being Olmert's offer that was completely in line with the Arab League plan. Abbas walked away from that without comment.

Yes Israel has groups that are opposed to a Palestinian state and even some groups that want The West Bank annexed but their past has shown them willing to make compromises for peace.