Bibi Wins, Two State Solution Dies?

[fuji]

You can't claim to be occupying a country that you claim doesn't exist.
Netanyahu's declaration that there is no Palestine means he's claiming it all.

That is why Israel calls it "occupied territory", which is what the entire world called it prior to the very recent recognition of a Palestinian state. You clearly don't have a clue what "occupied" means either.

It is just bullshit nonsense made up by you with no basis in logic or reality to say that if there isn't a Palestinian state then it must be Israeli territory. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[fuji]

So you are also agreeing that the one state solution is already in effect?

The alternative to a two state solution IS NOT a one state solution. The alternative is a no state solution. It remains occupied TERRITORY. In future it could be annexed by Jordan, administered by the UN in perpetuity, or any of a number of alternatives all of which are more plausible, more likely, and better than another bloody civil war, aka one state solution.

 

[Frankfooter]

The alternative to a two state solution IS NOT a one state solution. The alternative is a no state solution. It remains occupied TERRITORY. In future it could be annexed by Jordan, administered by the UN in perpetuity, or any of a number of alternatives all of which are more plausible, more likely, and better than another bloody civil war, aka one state solution.

For it to be occupied territory it has to be another country. You can't occupy a country you say doesn't exist.
That's as if Canada occupied Alaska, then said there was no Alaska. That would akin to declaring that you've already annexed that land.
Just as Israel behaves right now.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has urged the International Criminal Court (ICC) to reject the Palestinians' request for a membership because they did not rank as a state.
"We expect the ICC to reject the hypocritical request by the Palestinian Authority, which is not a state but an entity linked to a terrorist organisation," he said in a statement on Thursday, referring to Hamas.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...reject-palestinian-bid-20151117815257173.html

How can you claim to occupy a state that doesn't exist?

 

[basketcase]

For it to be occupied territory it has to be another country....

Where are you making that shit up from?

BTW. Notice the term is Occupied "TERRITORY", not Occupied Country.

 

[basketcase]

so if ...

You do know what "IF" means right?

And Israel has said repeatedly it will not annex the West Bank and opinion polls show Israelis are strongly opposed to it.

Israel does want the border agreement to include land swaps for some of the settlements and has included that in their peace offers but Olmert is still waiting of Abbas to get back to him about THE offer.

 

[Frankfooter]

And Israel has said repeatedly it will not annex the West Bank and opinion polls show Israelis are strongly opposed to it.

Wrong again.
Netanyahu has confirmed that settlements are land grabs meant to make sure a Palestinian state is near impossible.

In his election eve speech at Har Homa, Netanyahu expanded on the traditional arguments for settlements based on Jewish history and Israeli security needs, and in effect confirmed Palestinian accusations the enclaves are built as a land grab.

"There was a Palestinian attempt to join Bethlehem, to break through into Jerusalem. I thought we must protect the southern gateway to Jerusalem by building here. There was huge objection, because this neighborhood is in a location that prevents Palestinian contiguity," Netanyahu said.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN0MX0T220150406?sp=true

So we've established that Netanyahu has:
1) been elected on a promise to not allow a Palestinian state while PM.
2) declared that there is no state of Palestine
3) confirmed that settlements are land grabs designed to prevent a contiguous Palestinian state.

And the beliefs of the elected parties in Israel?

Within Netanyahu’s faction, it needs to be stressed, the prime minister holds a minority opinion by even entertaining theoretically the notion of a Palestinian state. The vast majority of current and future Likud MKs are adamantly opposed to the idea, instead suggesting the indefinite continuation of the status quo or calling for a full or partial annexation of the West Bank.

Jewish home calls for Annexing Area C, or 60% of the West Bank.
Yisrael Beytenu calls for annexing the major settlement blocks.
Yahad calls for annexing all of historic Palestine.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/from-a...-what-the-parties-say-about-the-palestinians/

Since there is will be no two state solution (for at least 20 years, if at all, according to fuji), and Netanyahu's party calls for continuing the occupation and/or annexation as well as declares there is no state of Palestine, the continuing settlement plan must be read as a de-facto, slow motion form of annexation.

Annexation is happening, just fairly slowly.

 

[fuji]

For it to be occupied territory it has to be another country.

Wrong. Just flat fucking wrong. You are clueless.

From 1967 to 2012 it was very clearly recognized by the United Nations as occupied territory. Not another country. Not a state. That only changed in 2012 when the General Assembly recognized it as a state.

That's as if Canada occupied Alaska, then said there was no Alaska. That would akin to declaring that you've already annexed that land.

Just flat out wrong.

 

[fuji]

so if Israel annexes this land without giving equal rights to arab residents there whereas Jewish settlers enjoy full civilian rights, what makes it different from an apartheid regime ?

If blue martians show up tomorrow claiming to be Elvis how is that any less ridiculous than your post above? There is a clear separation between Israeli territory and Palestinian territory -- a massive wall that you might notice if you visit the area.

 

[fuji]

One state solution is already in effect, now the question for palestinians is how to make it one egalitarian state instead of the current one apartheid state

The factors that prevent a two state solution also make a one state solution. If you create a one state solution that will result in a house to house urban war to annihilate Hamas and other armed militias, with a massive number of dead civilians and the whole area turning into a shithole until every last Hamas fighter is dead. It just isn't even in the realm of possibility, it isn't going to happen.

Similarly if you create a two state solution currently one would wind up being Hamastan, get arms from Iran, and you would again have a massive war with lots of dead civilians on both sides. Just not possible.

Fundamentally the existence of groups like Hamas makes any solution impossible right now. That problem has to be solved before ANY of these discussions are had -- and once that problem is solved there is really no obstacle to the Palestinians having their own state.

The only solution that does not involve that sort of massive urban warfare is to turn the territories over to Egypt and Jordan. Alternately, to wait 20-30 years for the Palestinians to rise up and replace Hamas/Fatah with leaders actually interested in peace.

 

[fuji]

there was also clear separation between white and black areas ( bantustans ) in apartheid south africa

No there wasn't. They were integral to the South African economy and made up 99% of the workforce. You are just lying.

 

[Frankfooter]

From 1967 to 2012 it was very clearly recognized by the United Nations as occupied territory. Not another country. Not a state. That only changed in 2012 when the General Assembly recognized it as a state.

We all accept that the world and the UN recognize Palestine as a state.
The question is what does Israel call it.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has urged the International Criminal Court (ICC) to reject the Palestinians' request for a membership because they did not rank as a state.
"We expect the ICC to reject the hypocritical request by the Palestinian Authority, which is not a state but an entity linked to a terrorist organisation," he said in a statement on Thursday, referring to Hamas.

On Gaza:

“The root cause of the violence that burst from Gaza is not Israel’s occupation in Gaza, for a simple reason: Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza,” Netanyahu said.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-to-Ban-Gaza-is-not-occupied-378807

On ending the occupation.

Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” — a reference to the Jordan Valley and the West Bank — as Kerry had urged during a US-led peace effort that collapsed in April.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...-israel-cant-relinquish-control-of-west-bank/

On the occupation.

Netanyahu-appointed panel: Israel isn't an occupying force in West Bank

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...sn-t-an-occupying-force-in-west-bank-1.449895

Satisfied?

 

[fuji]

Jordan and Egypt can sign new treaties to take them back. A lot less violence and bloodshed than trying to restart the '47 civil war.

 

[Frankfooter]

Jordan and Egypt can sign new treaties to take them back. A lot less violence and bloodshed than trying to restart the '47 civil war.

Refusing to answer to this?

From 1967 to 2012 it was very clearly recognized by the United Nations as occupied territory. Not another country. Not a state. That only changed in 2012 when the General Assembly recognized it as a state.

We all accept that the world and the UN recognize Palestine as a state.
The question is what does Israel call it.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has urged the International Criminal Court (ICC) to reject the Palestinians' request for a membership because they did not rank as a state.
"We expect the ICC to reject the hypocritical request by the Palestinian Authority, which is not a state but an entity linked to a terrorist organisation," he said in a statement on Thursday, referring to Hamas.

On Gaza:

“The root cause of the violence that burst from Gaza is not Israel’s occupation in Gaza, for a simple reason: Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza,” Netanyahu said.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-to-Ban-Gaza-is-not-occupied-378807

On ending the occupation.

Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” — a reference to the Jordan Valley and the West Bank — as Kerry had urged during a US-led peace effort that collapsed in April.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...-israel-cant-relinquish-control-of-west-bank/

On the occupation.

Netanyahu-appointed panel: Israel isn't an occupying force in West Bank

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...sn-t-an-occupying-force-in-west-bank-1.449895

Satisfied?

 

[Moviefan-2]

But the fact remains that Israel has declared there is no state of Palestine, which means they are no longer considering it occupied land.

And, of course, Israel's declaration confirms the existence of the tooth fairy.

Or whatever else you would like to add.

If this thread ever finds its way back to reality, be sure to let me know.

 

[fuji]

President Sissi in Egypt is busy fighting muslim brotherhood, do you think he would accept to annex another branch of muslim brotherhood ?

Sure, control of the Sinai would make his job easier. He could wipe Hamas out pretty quick, would likely help his cause.

 

[fuji]

Refusing to answer to this?

I answered you, there is really no difficulty updating the Israel/Jordan or Israel/Egypt peace treaty to transfer that land back to them. Just takes some negotiations to get everyone to agree and they can sign a deal.

Everyone would prefer a two state solution but if you want to talk about plan B, that is a better solution.

We all accept that the world and the UN recognize Palestine as a state.
The question is what does Israel call it.

You lied and said a territory can't be occupied if it isn't a state. I pointed out that from 1967 to 2012 the UN viewed Palestine as an occupied territory that was not a state.

The UN only listed Palestine as a state three years ago. For the 44 years prior to that the UN position was that Palestine was occupied territory.

Clearly a territory can be occupied without being a state.

 

[Frankfooter]

I answered you, there is really no difficulty updating the Israel/Jordan or Israel/Egypt peace treaty to transfer that land back to them. Just takes some negotiations to get everyone to agree and they can sign a deal.

Sorry, Netanyahu ruled that one out.

Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” — a reference to the Jordan Valley and the West Bank — as Kerry had urged during a US-led peace effort that collapsed in April.

Netanyahu says its not a state and its not occupied and he won't ever give it up.
Sounds like he's claiming the one state solution is in effect right now.

 

[fuji]

Netanyahu says its not a state and its not occupied and he won't ever give it up.
Sounds like he's claiming the one state solution is in effect right now.

Now you are back to your blatant lying. Netanyahu has said he supports a Palestinian state if in future conditions change.

Where has Netanyahu ruled out Jordan taking over portions of the west bank? By the way, he HAS explicitly to ruled out the one state solution. I can quote his explicit words ruling that out.

 

[Frankfooter]

Now you are back to your blatant lying. Netanyahu has said he supports a Palestinian state if in future conditions change.

Netanyahu said this:

Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” — a reference to the Jordan Valley and the West Bank — as Kerry had urged during a US-led peace effort that collapsed in April.

You said this:

Netanyahu was elected on a promise not to establish a Palestinian state while he was in office.

Netanyahu promised he wouldn't support a Palestinian state or allow the two state solution to come to pass as long as he was in office, and promised also that he would never give up security control of the Jordan Valley and West Bank, which means he will never support a sovereign Palestinian state.

You really should apologize for accusing me of lying, everything I've claimed is backed up by quotes by you and Netanyahu.

 

[fuji]

Netanyahu promised he wouldn't support a Palestinian state or allow the two state solution to come to pass as long as he was in office,

No you fucking liar he never said that. YOU added the word "support" because you are lying clown. You can't just keep rewording what people say in order to change their meaning to fit your lying.

He promised that a state would not be established while he was in office, not all the other shit you are spewing about not supporting one.

Reality actually exists you know, you can't change it by trying to reword things.

and promised also that he would never give up security control of the Jordan Valley and West Bank

So what, the US provided security for Japan and Germany for fifty years after the occupation of those countries ended. It is very common post occupation for the former occupier to maintain security control over the territory long after the occupied area achieves independence.

Japan is clearly sovereign.