Another Malaysian Airways flight down over Ukraine....

[GPIDEAL]

Which might be interesting if there was any real issue as to whether a crash had taken place or not. But 99% say that there is a crash - including Ukraine, Donetsk, Moscow, Washington and every other country. Only a couple of internet trolls are suggesting its ALL a huge conspiracy theory.

I agree (had to disagree with a friend who is a conspiracist, who thinks we shouldn't believe in the reports by western MSM - this is another false flag operation to make Putin look bad).

There are too many indicators that this was done by Ukrainian separatists. Even their control of the 'crime scene' and limited access to international monitors is very telling.

 

[mnztr]

Vladimir Putin is the richest man in the world, worth approx $80 billion -graft pays!

He is also a macho meathead who cannot begin to contemplate the huge risks he is taking. He could end up becoming the Kerensky of the 21st Century, only this time it won't be the Bolsheviks who take over, it will be the PRC. Czar Vlad will bankrupt the country sooner than later.He signed a sweetheart gas deal with the PRC for a fraction of what Europe is paying. He's already subsidizing Transdnistria, South Ossetia and most recently Crimea. He's opened a Pandora's Box with East Ukraine, it's too big to subsidize and he knows it. The situation is spiraling out of his control.

What Putin will eventually become:

Not really true about the price of the gas:

"Russia recently clinched a US$400-billion deal to feed China around 38 billion cubic metres of natural gas via pipelines at a chummy price of $10-$11 per million cubic feet, shaking up an industry that is used to fetching $14-$18 per mcf from Asian markets."


http://business.financialpost.com/2...-of-canadian-lng-projects-td/?__lsa=200c-51a9


and :

European Union Natural Gas Import Price is at a current level of 9.77, down from 10.20 last month and down from 11.92 one year ago. This is a change of -4.22% from last month and -18.04% from one year ago.

So the price is higher then Europe, and China will spend 20B to help develop the resource. So it is a great deal. It also punishes the interests that triggered the whole Ukrainian crisis by deflating Asian gas prices.

 

[mandrill]

Not really true about the price of the gas:

"Russia recently clinched a US$400-billion deal to feed China around 38 billion cubic metres of natural gas via pipelines at a chummy price of $10-$11 per million cubic feet, shaking up an industry that is used to fetching $14-$18 per mcf from Asian markets."


http://business.financialpost.com/2...-of-canadian-lng-projects-td/?__lsa=200c-51a9


and :

European Union Natural Gas Import Price is at a current level of 9.77, down from 10.20 last month and down from 11.92 one year ago. This is a change of -4.22% from last month and -18.04% from one year ago.

So the price is higher then Europe, and China will spend 20B to help develop the resource. So it is a great deal. It also punishes the interests that triggered the whole Ukrainian crisis by deflating Asian gas prices.

I think what Insidious is saying is that Putin just sold gas to China at $8.00 below the market norm to make a political statement to his domestic public that he has an "alliance" with China. The deal had hung fire for a long time due to disagreement re the pricing. The Chinese exploited Russia's increasing isolation in Europe by getting the grandaddy of sweet deals at Russia's expense. So explain how Putin triumphed here....

 

[mandrill]

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...-17-over-ukraine/story-fnh81p7g-1226992904029

Brief tech overview of the BUK missile system.

 

[mnztr]

I think what Insidious is saying is that Putin just sold gas to China at $8.00 below the market norm to make a political statement to his domestic public that he has an "alliance" with China. The deal had hung fire for a long time due to disagreement re the pricing. The Chinese exploited Russia's increasing isolation in Europe by getting the grandaddy of sweet deals at Russia's expense. So explain how Putin triumphed here....

I think the price was fair especially since pricing is linked to oil prices. When you spend 400B you expect to get a discount no?

 

[BlueLaser]

But right now, the evidence - albeit Ukrainian in origin - is that this BUK came from Russia. And has gone back there. And the missile system has to be fired by someone who can read the radar screen you talk about.

It doesn't matter how well you can read the screen, a combat radar display lacks the detail to distinguish one type of aircraft from another, and the processor inside the radar itself doesn't have the ability to process data like that either. When someone says "the echo of a 777 and an Antonov are easily mistaken", I can instantly see someone trying to sell you something. Either he wants hits on his blog or he hopes someone will hire him to be an "expert" like most of the ones you can watch on CNN. What it proves to those who understand weapon systems of this nature is that he's making it all up.

Of course Ukraine is going to say it came from Russia. What else would you expect them to say? I didn't hear the US advertising about how their soldiers were being killed by the very weapons they had equipped Al Qaeda with back in the 70's and 80's. No one will admit it's their own stuff.

It may have been Russian. Putin may be behind everything. These are possibilities no one can deny. I have no problem with advancing a theory. But people speaking as though this is gospel, as though Ukraine, Europe and the US would NEVER lie and Russia is the epitome of evil. It's a biased opinion formed precisely because of how the west views the Cold War. To talk about Soviet and Russian propaganda while you repeat the kool aid you're getting fed by mainstream media (that wants to sell newspapers), online bloggers (that want to get page hits), and talking points from governments with a history of lying to people (Bay of Pigs, WMD's in Iraq, etc) is pretty hypocritical.

 

[BlueLaser]

I know several Russians who believe that. I just spoke to one on Facebook, a guy called Andrey Bogdanov, a university teacher from Moscow and a buddy of Strelkov's. Look him up and say "hi" for me. I'll give you the link. He can introduce you to his friends. And it seems to be a growth industry. And there are Russian news and internet reports which specialize in spreading this type of crap.

Here's something I just found. A commentary on Russian media which reminded me that Russia's main TV news channel recently published a fake story about a child being crucified in Slovyansk's main square by Ukrainian troops. This stuff is getting weirder and weirder and it's being put about by major Russian news outlets and believed by the masses.

http://mobile.businessweek.com/arti...oting-russian-news-media-tries-crazy-theories

Yeah, I said there may be fringes that believe it, but it's not widely believed. Shall I point you to articles about some of the crazy shit that fringes in Western society believe? Lizard people? Freeman on the Land? Illuminati?

I realize you have such a reputable, unbiased and accurate source as Bloomberg. That's much more accurate that going to Russia and walking around talking to people.

 

[BlueLaser]

At the risk of jumping topic, right now the separatists own about 50% or less of Lugansk and Donetsk. Both of these regions are industrial. But both are driven by outmoded coal mining. All of the analysis I've read suggests that the regions are a economic burden to Ukraine and not an advantage. If you want to tell me that there's an industrial bonanza there and that it's worth Ukrainian lives and American money to keep them, go right ahead and convince me. The west gets all the cheap manufacturing it needs already.

Poroshenko offered peace terms, including federalization. The separatists refused. So back to square one. Before the peacekeepers come in, the separatists have to agree to it. No sign of that. So no peacekeepers.

As far as Putin, convince me that all the reports about recruiting Russians to fight in Donetsk and convoying them and their heavy armament across the border is horseshit and give me your sources. Tell me why Putin's media quite clearly backs preposterous exaggerations about Ukrainian war crimes in Donbas, if not to facilitate recruitment of Russians for "Novorussiya" and give me your sources. Give me your sources for the proposition than all Russian-speaking Ukraine would reject Kiev. And then we can talk.

The steel industry and the thriving military manufacturing industry out of Eastern Ukraine including Donetsk disagree with your assessment.

While a principle of peacekeeping is that the major players in a conflict have to agree, the argument can be made that the major players are Russia and Ukraine. Russia would fear a pro-West force going in, which is why I specifically brought up Pakistani units that have shown to have no love for the West or the Russians. In any case, having all parties agree may be one of the principles of peacekeeping, but it's been waived before. Here we have innocent from unaffected countries being hurt. I think that calls for the same kind of exemption we've seen in the past.

Why do I have to convince you it's horseshit? I'm saying it MIGHT be true. I'm just saying that the reports that they are have nothing to back them up. They're speculation. I could just easily tell you to convince me that they're true. All you can do is point to media reports and what amounts to op-eds put out by pro-West government's media affairs offices. That's the exact same thing I'd be able to point you to. You can't rage about Russian propaganda if you're going to spout nothing but government reports back. Putin may be directly involved... And the CIA may have kicked the whole thing off. Or maybe neither side has had anything to do with it. As lowly peons in the modern world, we'll probably never know. The difference is that I'm capable of admitting my opinion is based on speculation while you seem to think Ukraine and the US government would never lie to you. One of us sounds pretty naive.

 

[BlueLaser]

Blue Lazer is pretty handy with incisive, angry denunciations of the pro Western fools who don't agree with him. Less handy with real facts.

Example: He once said the Canadian aid for Ukraine was pointless as Ukraine's war industries and war capabilities far exceed Canada's. Yet everything I have read from Ukraine indicates that the defence industries are so run down and degraded and the army so badly supplied and corrupt that they find it difficult to obtain even body armour and helmets.

No, someone had said Canadians would be more likely support sending the Canadian military against Russia and I said that Russia would absolutely trounce Canada. Russia and Ukraine are two very different countries.

You also see that I'm not claiming Russia is not innocent in this whole thing. I'm saying they could be guilty as sin, but there's no REAL evidence that they are. Just as there's no REAL evidence that the US was behind the protests that started it all. I'm simply tempering the statements that speak as though a de facto Russian invasion is a known thing by pointing out that all you have is what could be nothing more than propaganda saying that's so, and laughing at how ironic it is when you then turn around a paragraph later and rage about Russian propaganda.

 

[harryass]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malays...shes-in-ukraine-near-russian-border-1.2709881

They are not having any luck lately..... If this is part of the conflict there somebody's got some explaining to do...:crazy:

nothing but bunch of f/n murderers.

 

[mandrill]

Yeah, I said there may be fringes that believe it, but it's not widely believed. Shall I point you to articles about some of the crazy shit that fringes in Western society believe? Lizard people? Freeman on the Land? Illuminati?

I realize you have such a reputable, unbiased and accurate source as Bloomberg. That's much more accurate that going to Russia and walking around talking to people.

Or talking to them on FB? Like I do?

The distinction is that Russian mainstream media fosters the same crazy shit. I don't hear your favourite TV station, CNN talking about alien abductions. But Channel One in Russia talks about child crucifixion.

I'm actually waiting for you to mention a Western news source that you DON'T describe as unreliable or biased. Surprise me.

 

[mandrill]

No, someone had said Canadians would be more likely support sending the Canadian military against Russia and I said that Russia would absolutely trounce Canada. Russia and Ukraine are two very different countries.

You also see that I'm not claiming Russia is not innocent in this whole thing. I'm saying they could be guilty as sin, but there's no REAL evidence that they are. Just as there's no REAL evidence that the US was behind the protests that started it all. I'm simply tempering the statements that speak as though a de facto Russian invasion is a known thing by pointing out that all you have is what could be nothing more than propaganda saying that's so, and laughing at how ironic it is when you then turn around a paragraph later and rage about Russian propaganda.

"Someone" didn't say that. Stop lying. We've been through your crap on this once already. And my post is on the open board. So any reader can go and read it.

And on another thread, you made a post that you have apparently forgotten. When someone suggested sending war material aid to Kiev, you told him that the Ukrainian war industry is strong and prolific and Ukraine does not need any material assistance. About as ludicrous as your other nonsense.

And yes, lots of real evidence that Russia is directly involved. The side issue is that you call all Western government and media sources propaganda and refuse to accept it. I suppose ALL Western recordings, photos and videos could be clever fakes. So could the moon landings. You hate Kiev. You hate the USA. And the rest is simply you finding ways to avoid accepting their view on the conflict by terming everything they show as propaganda.

 

[mandrill]

It doesn't matter how well you can read the screen, a combat radar display lacks the detail to distinguish one type of aircraft from another, and the processor inside the radar itself doesn't have the ability to process data like that either. When someone says "the echo of a 777 and an Antonov are easily mistaken", I can instantly see someone trying to sell you something. Either he wants hits on his blog or he hopes someone will hire him to be an "expert" like most of the ones you can watch on CNN. What it proves to those who understand weapon systems of this nature is that he's making it all up.

Of course Ukraine is going to say it came from Russia. What else would you expect them to say? I didn't hear the US advertising about how their soldiers were being killed by the very weapons they had equipped Al Qaeda with back in the 70's and 80's. No one will admit it's their own stuff.

It may have been Russian. Putin may be behind everything. These are possibilities no one can deny. I have no problem with advancing a theory. But people speaking as though this is gospel, as though Ukraine, Europe and the US would NEVER lie and Russia is the epitome of evil. It's a biased opinion formed precisely because of how the west views the Cold War. To talk about Soviet and Russian propaganda while you repeat the kool aid you're getting fed by mainstream media (that wants to sell newspapers), online bloggers (that want to get page hits), and talking points from governments with a history of lying to people (Bay of Pigs, WMD's in Iraq, etc) is pretty hypocritical.

What are you talking about? I didn't make any comment about the radar. I know little about radar. Any conclusion that I make about culpability is based on the track record of the separatists firing at planes in the same area, the phone recordings, the videos and the general probability. You repeatedly misstate my posts to try and make your own points.

And re the Cold War - again, I've responded to your horseshit with a long post on another thread wherein I told you why I felt the USSR was superficially attractive to some Russians, why it wasn't a nice place and why I felt Putin is trying to recreate some of the same regime conditions. Go back and re read that post and stop trying to re argue the issue afresh.

 

[mandrill]

United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems.

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft.

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11.

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17.

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft.

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media.

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area. http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

US Embassy in Kiev official statement places blame on separatists.

 

[Aardvark154]

No, Dub is an oak tree in Russian.

Transliteration is always tricky

дуб - Oak, дух - Spirit

Another great one is дворец - palace

(This is translation not transliteration the problem with transliteration is things aren't always pronounced strictly as they are spelled)

 

[mandrill]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...esponse-crisis-senior-western-politician.html

New British MoD, Michael Fallon opens door for direct NATO military involvement in Ukraine to oppose Russia, but nixes idea of combatants.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine

More narrative and comment on Russian media spin to obscure shoot-down of jet.

 

[afterhours]

I think it's very clear what has happened with the plane. The question is, what if anything the West is going to do about it.

 

[mandrill]

Black boxes may have been recovered by separatists. UNSC considers Australian resolution that the separatist militia allow unfettered access to the crash site.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/bodies-moved-to-refrigerated-wagon/5610108

Ukrainian secret service publishes another tape recording of separatist militia seizing the black boxes ahead of the investigators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff_LTlZZI8&feature=youtu.be

 

[Keebler Elf]

Look on the bright side... the Ukraine is kicking ass and soon the separatists will get what's coming to them.

 

[mandrill]

Look on the bright side... the Ukraine is kicking ass and soon the separatists will get what's coming to them.

My info too. My buddy from Kiev is cock-a-hoop and telling me that the separatist controlled territory has been driven in further and communications cut between Lugansk and Donetsk. They are thinking that Putin is now too intimidated to think about invading.

Today's British tabloid headlines....