Another Malaysian Airways flight down over Ukraine....

[BlueLaser]

I did, but neither they nor you provided me with any new information. Ukraine has a large defence industry making components for the Russian armed forces' equipment. It's a variant on what's called a "branch plant economy" closely integrated with Russia. The articles also note the hopeless corruption on all levels of the Ukrainian state. Making engine parts for Antonov's - or whatever they make - doesn't necessarily make your army well prepared to fight a war. If a factory in Brampton produced avionics by sub contract to Lockheed, that wouldn't necessarily provide artillery ammunition to Canadians in Afghanistan. And certainly not when your factory owner and the poiticians who got him the job and their hangers-on and cronies skim the profits, as opposed to ploughing it back into the national budget.

I've also seen numerous articles and videos of Ukrainian govt troops complaining that they have no food, uniforms, helmets, etc. And I posted an article wherein a Ukrainian source complained that the fighting capacity of the Uke army had been so heavily degraded since the break-up of the Soviet Union that they could field only 6,000 fighting troops at the end of March, due to lack of equipment and training.

The Ukrainians crowd-funded to buy supplies for their Nat Gvardia units.

Re Putin and Merkel, I don't see that as supporting your position. The separatists control the crash site area. Putin sort of controls the separatists, some of the time. Or doesn't, depending on what game he is playing from day to day. And Merkel has more leverage w Putin than Petro does. So the Canada analogy is pretty off target.

Anything else you want me to comment on?

You said:

At the risk of jumping topic, right now the separatists own about 50% or less of Lugansk and Donetsk. Both of these regions are industrial. But both are driven by outmoded coal mining. All of the analysis I've read suggests that the regions are a economic burden to Ukraine and not an advantage. If you want to tell me that there's an industrial bonanza there and that it's worth Ukrainian lives and American money to keep them, go right ahead and convince me.

Now you say:

I did, but neither they nor you provided me with any new information. Ukraine has a large defence industry making components for the Russian armed forces' equipment.

Which is it? You believe Eastern Ukraine is driven by outmoded coal mining and you need to be convinced that they have industry and aren't a burden, or the idea that Ukraine has a large defence industry that manufacturers and exports military equipment? It really can't be both.

As for the state of Ukraine's army, you may want to reread what I said... Here are some snippets:

how useful will we be to Ukraine if we can't afford to put bullets in our guns? Yes, Ukraine suffers that same problem

They are absolutely underequipped and underfunded, spending about 1/20th of what Canada spends.

What they need are the primary resources militaries use: food, bullets and gas

To repeat myself, the question isn't how effective is the Ukrainian military, but how much help we would be to them. And the answer is none. We wouldn't help at all. What they DO have, as I've said numerous times, is people. And the other thing I have said, numerous times, is that they're fighting the same old equipment and the same poor funding that they themselves suffer from.

 

[mandrill]

Nice try. Let me rephrase and make it obvious.

Ukraine has a defence industry which is tied in w Russia and which exports component parts to Russia which spends the largest % of GDP on military of all major developed countries. This interaction accounts for Ukraine being an exporter of "arms" - or at least arms components.

Some of that industry is situated in Donbas. Some of that industry is situated in Dnepropetrovsk and other areas.

Donbas is an economic basket case because its major industry is coal mining. This industry is non competitive and is headed for the scrap heap in the near future. Ukrainian economic studies indicate that Donbas is at best an economic neutral in the national economy, if not a minus.

Ukraine itself is a borderline failed state due to government corruption and lack of a truly competitive industrial base. The fact that it exports components to Russia in arrangements made 20 years ago hardly means it can compete in the international arms export world.

Let me add: Most western countries are far more interested in keeping their own arms industries busy and profitable. Hence France's tenacious struggle to sell its Mistrals to Russia in the wake of Russia's recent misbehaviour. My understanding of the "military industrial complex" is that hi tech, highly paid industries in St Louis and LA get lucrative contracts from the US being on a permanent semi war footing. I have difficulty seeing how an arms industry in Donetsk - or Dnepropetrovsk either - does anything but undermine the profit forecasts of the folks in LA or those in Le Havre.

But you can explain, correct?

 

[mandrill]

To repeat myself, the question isn't how effective is the Ukrainian military, but how much help we would be to them. And the answer is none. We wouldn't help at all. What they DO have, as I've said numerous times, is people. And the other thing I have said, numerous times, is that they're fighting the same old equipment and the same poor funding that they themselves suffer from.

A message from the EuroArmyMaydan group that are gathering Medicine kits for Ukrainian soldiers.

Our dearest friends abroad! Thank you so much for sending all of these wonderful packages with Celox and Israeli bandages.
You are definitely guarding our back!

Please, remember that we are asking for help only with the items that are unavailable or ridiculously expensive in Ukraine.
And the next very important item on the list is BINOCULARS!

They are an essential component to the soldier’s security on par with body armor and helmet. Especially given the current circumstances

There is a devastating shortage of binoculars at the moment at ALL of our checkppoints. This is the list of what we need. The price range is $13-$30 dollars on the most common models.

Celestron UpClose G2 16×32 Roof Binocular Mfr # 71234 (200 needed)
Tasco 12×25 Essentials Binocular Mfr # 178BCRD (200 needed)
Celestron UpClose G2 20×50 Porro Binocular Mfr # 71258 (150 needed)
Celestron SkyMaster 25×70 Binocular Mfr # 71008 (70 needed)
Barska 15-40×50 Colorado Spotting Scope Mfr # CO11500 (70 needed)
Sakura Super Zoom & High Resolution Binocular 20 – 180 x 100 (30 needed. Should be about $40-80 apiece)


To answer your questions of where to buy and how to ship please email our Binocular Angel Expert nycmonitor@gmail.com or call him directly +17189091834.

Please ship them via Meest. We’ll receive your precious packages here and use our “special” ways to transfer them directly to the hot spot. And of course will publish photo reports after the mission is accomplished.

Olesya Favorska, EuroArmyMaydan coordinator http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/24/help-ukrainian-army-please-send-binoculars/

This might be an example of the help they need?

 

[mandrill]

What a surprise.

I'll give you their FB pages. You can send them translations of Eric Margolis. I'm sure you will be a far more successful friend of Russia than I was.

Remember though, when they tell you that the USA is paying Ukraine - and Poland, now I recall - to harvest organs from Russian children and recycle those organs in hospitals in Germany, you must repeat "Da, tovarishch. Of course. Whatever Tovarishch Putin says."

If you change the subject and start talking about Chomsky's theory of neo colonialism, you'll lose their limited attention span.

 

[BlueLaser]

Blue Lazer, pls read the above post and comment. We have had an ongoing debate wherein I tell you that Russian media propaganda is materially different from CNN and that the former operates at the level of a Kremlin-controlled "National Eqnquirer" and that it has a wide following among the majority of the population, including the educated classes. While CNN may be manipulated and cooperative with the State Dept, it does not run "lizardman stories" at the bequest of the administration, nor does the majority of the population believe in Lizardmen.

In Russia, it's different. The vast majority of the population appear to be paranoid, aggressive, angry and out of control. I continually see this in my inter action with Russian FB friends, most of whom have un friended me. I could give you numerous examples.

This is an interesting topic and is important to understanding the dynamics of the Ukraine conflict and why is continues.

I'll tell you what I did... I copied-and-pasted one of your paragraphs into Google, curious to see your sources since you didn't provide one. I see one result from New Statesman, a British magazine, and then a whole whack from places like "NewRepublic.com", "OffTheBeltway", "DemocraticUnderground.com"... (Democratic Underground being the news agency that reported the Japanese Tsunami was caused by earthquake weapons)

You say CNN doesn't run Lizardmen stories, which is true I suppose, but they do engage in rampant speculation. During 9/11, CNN did report all the conspiracy theories it was getting. It called them conspiracy theories, it said they were speculation. The New Statesman link to a Vesti article, which itself sources Komsomolskaya Pravda. For those who don't know, Komsomolskaya Pravda is a tabloid. Everyone knows it's a tabloid. If you know Russian and read the article on Vesti, it's about the various theories behind the crash. CNN also changed it's mind about 20 times in the first 24 hours MH370 went missing. Speculation is the name of the game in a 24 hour a day newscycle.

I actually spent 20 minutes writing a much longer, more detailed post, but I promised the good folks I wouldn't have any more long posts in this thread. So this will have to do. But of course it won't. Enjoy all the same.

EDIT: Removed from my longer post but important to include, Vesti actually mentions that these are conspiracy theories. Kind of an important fact.

 

[BlueLaser]

Nice try. Let me rephrase and make it obvious.

Ukraine has a defence industry which is tied in w Russia and which exports component parts to Russia which spends the largest % of GDP on military of all major developed countries. This interaction accounts for Ukraine being an exporter of "arms" - or at least arms components.

Some of that industry is situated in Donbas. Some of that industry is situated in Dnepropetrovsk and other areas.

Donbas is an economic basket case because its major industry is coal mining. This industry is non competitive and is headed for the scrap heap in the near future. Ukrainian economic studies indicate that Donbas is at best an economic neutral in the national economy, if not a minus.

Ukraine itself is a borderline failed state due to government corruption and lack of a truly competitive industrial base. The fact that it exports components to Russia in arrangements made 20 years ago hardly means it can compete in the international arms export world.

Let me add: Most western countries are far more interested in keeping their own arms industries busy and profitable. Hence France's tenacious struggle to sell its Mistrals to Russia in the wake of Russia's recent misbehaviour. My understanding of the "military industrial complex" is that hi tech, highly paid industries in St Louis and LA get lucrative contracts from the US being on a permanent semi war footing. I have difficulty seeing how an arms industry in Donetsk - or Dnepropetrovsk either - does anything but undermine the profit forecasts of the folks in LA or those in Le Havre.

But you can explain, correct?

So I'm confused... You still seem to be saying both things. Is Eastern Ukraine a thriving industrial base where it manufactures military hardware or does it rely on outmoded coal mining and it's military exports generate insufficient revenue making them a burden on the rest of Ukraine? Where is the rest of Ukraine getting it's money from? Taxes? How do you explain the Forbes report from 2012 that ranked Donestsk the "Best city for Businesses" based on factors like purchasing power of citizens, infrastructure and economic stability. The list is almost entirely made up of Eastern Cities - Karkhiv, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaparozhya, etc.

You say it can't compete in the arms export world, yet you said the links I gave you were nothing new. Links which rank it very highly in the arms export business. When you say something isn't news, that implies it's a truth you already know. So you already knew Ukraine had a thriving arms industry based mostly in the East, but you also know that Ukraine can't compete in the arms industry and that the East, where this thriving business lies, is based on outmoded coal mining and is an economic burden?

Do you not see the circles your in? One of your claims has to be wrong.

 

[Insidious Von]

The PRC must be loving Czar Vlad's King Pyrrhus routine.

They're just sitting back and watching Putin consume Russia from within. From Ivan III to Leonid Brezhnev the biggest threat to Russia's sovereignty has always come from the East, it cannot be conquered from the West. Before embarking on his revanchist policies Putin should have dealt with the nation's problems; all pervasive corruption, runaway alcoholism and a collapsing birthrate. But Putin is too much of a meathead to tend to tough problems, he so desperately wants to be Ivan Grozny but doesn't have the stomach for it. Good luck to him when the PRC assumes control.

 

[BlueLaser]

A message from the EuroArmyMaydan group that are gathering Medicine kits for Ukrainian soldiers.

Our dearest friends abroad! Thank you so much for sending all of these wonderful packages with Celox and Israeli bandages.
You are definitely guarding our back!

Please, remember that we are asking for help only with the items that are unavailable or ridiculously expensive in Ukraine.
And the next very important item on the list is BINOCULARS!

They are an essential component to the soldier’s security on par with body armor and helmet. Especially given the current circumstances

There is a devastating shortage of binoculars at the moment at ALL of our checkppoints. This is the list of what we need. The price range is $13-$30 dollars on the most common models.

Celestron UpClose G2 16×32 Roof Binocular Mfr # 71234 (200 needed)
Tasco 12×25 Essentials Binocular Mfr # 178BCRD (200 needed)
Celestron UpClose G2 20×50 Porro Binocular Mfr # 71258 (150 needed)
Celestron SkyMaster 25×70 Binocular Mfr # 71008 (70 needed)
Barska 15-40×50 Colorado Spotting Scope Mfr # CO11500 (70 needed)
Sakura Super Zoom & High Resolution Binocular 20 – 180 x 100 (30 needed. Should be about $40-80 apiece)


To answer your questions of where to buy and how to ship please email our Binocular Angel Expert nycmonitor@gmail.com or call him directly +17189091834.

Please ship them via Meest. We’ll receive your precious packages here and use our “special” ways to transfer them directly to the hot spot. And of course will publish photo reports after the mission is accomplished.

Olesya Favorska, EuroArmyMaydan coordinator http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/24/help-ukrainian-army-please-send-binoculars/

This might be an example of the help they need?

Nice twist of words. The post we were speaking of, the claims I made, were about the Canadian military deploying in support of Ukraine. My posts already adequately cover why a Canadian military deployment wouldn't help. If you want the Canadian military to send binoculars, go ahead and write to your MP. But bear in mind that 20 years ago our military officer recruits fired 1,000 rounds of ammunition as part of basic training, and today they fire 30. Don't forget too the M777 ammunition I mentioned that we can't afford to buy. We aren't exactly flush with supplies ourselves. I suppose we can close more veterans support centers to fund the Ukrainian army... Or maybe start charging soldiers for parking at work across the country like Halifax is doing. Maybe we can stop doing arms training altogether, or downsize again, that would work. We did just cut our military budget by $2.3 billion after all, of which almost half will impact our own military readiness, but I'm sure we could cut it more. I mean, maybe we can sell our new M777 for 30 cents on the dollar and keep flying our jets that were designed in 1978 for another 3 or 4 decades, perhaps keep the Sea King in the air a little longer too?

I suppose the government could take money out of a different department, or increase our debt, to fund Ukraine's military... But if it's not coming from the military's budget, it's really not something our "military" is doing to help at all.

 

[BlueLaser]

Nice try. Let me rephrase and make it obvious.

Ukraine has a defence industry which is tied in w Russia and which exports component parts to Russia which spends the largest % of GDP on military of all major developed countries. This interaction accounts for Ukraine being an exporter of "arms" - or at least arms components.

Some of that industry is situated in Donbas. Some of that industry is situated in Dnepropetrovsk and other areas.

Donbas is an economic basket case because its major industry is coal mining. This industry is non competitive and is headed for the scrap heap in the near future. Ukrainian economic studies indicate that Donbas is at best an economic neutral in the national economy, if not a minus.

Ukraine itself is a borderline failed state due to government corruption and lack of a truly competitive industrial base. The fact that it exports components to Russia in arrangements made 20 years ago hardly means it can compete in the international arms export world.

Let me add: Most western countries are far more interested in keeping their own arms industries busy and profitable. Hence France's tenacious struggle to sell its Mistrals to Russia in the wake of Russia's recent misbehaviour. My understanding of the "military industrial complex" is that hi tech, highly paid industries in St Louis and LA get lucrative contracts from the US being on a permanent semi war footing. I have difficulty seeing how an arms industry in Donetsk - or Dnepropetrovsk either - does anything but undermine the profit forecasts of the folks in LA or those in Le Havre.

But you can explain, correct?

PS: I was curious so I looked it up. Russia expends 4.4% of GDP on defence, the US spends 4.9%. Oman 6%, Israel 6.9%, Saudi Arabia spends 11.4%, UAE 7.3% and Eretria 20.9%. I suppose you could argue the middle eastern nations aren't "developed" from one perspective and I'd humm and haww but eventually begrudgingly agree that from a certain point of view that's an allowable argument, but the US is certainly developed.

 

[mandrill]

So I'm confused... You still seem to be saying both things. Is Eastern Ukraine a thriving industrial base where it manufactures military hardware or does it rely on outmoded coal mining and it's military exports generate insufficient revenue making them a burden on the rest of Ukraine? Where is the rest of Ukraine getting it's money from? Taxes? How do you explain the Forbes report from 2012 that ranked Donestsk the "Best city for Businesses" based on factors like purchasing power of citizens, infrastructure and economic stability. The list is almost entirely made up of Eastern Cities - Karkhiv, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaparozhya, etc.

You say it can't compete in the arms export world, yet you said the links I gave you were nothing new. Links which rank it very highly in the arms export business. When you say something isn't news, that implies it's a truth you already know. So you already knew Ukraine had a thriving arms industry based mostly in the East, but you also know that Ukraine can't compete in the arms industry and that the East, where this thriving business lies, is based on outmoded coal mining and is an economic burden?

Do you not see the circles your in? One of your claims has to be wrong.

C'mon. Give it up. You're just being obtuse to annoy me.

The obvious answer is that Ukraine has an arms export industry because of its interconnection w Russia which dates back to before 1991. However..... that arms export industry doesn't outweigh the fact that the Donbas is fucked because most of its economy is based on coal mining. Despite an arms export industry. How many different ways do you want me to phrase it. And you already know this, I am sure.

 

[mandrill]

PS: I was curious so I looked it up. Russia expends 4.4% of GDP on defence, the US spends 4.9%. Oman 6%, Israel 6.9%, Saudi Arabia spends 11.4%, UAE 7.3% and Eretria 20.9%. I suppose you could argue the middle eastern nations aren't "developed" from one perspective and I'd humm and haww but eventually begrudgingly agree that from a certain point of view that's an allowable argument, but the US is certainly developed.

Last time I checked, the RF had edged ahead of USA in % terms, although not in absolute terms. The journalist felt it was a significant development.

What's your argument that Eretria is "developed"? I need a chuckle.

 

[mandrill]

The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.

The photograph above, first published by the Financial Times over the weekend, shows a piece of the downed Boeing 777 about a metre square with a gaping hole in the middle, surrounded by smaller holes and apparent burn marks.

The wreckage was recovered by the people of Petropavlovka from a villager’s back yard last Thursday and moved to the roadside because it was believed to be important.

Two defence analysts in London and a former military pilot who have studied the picture corroborated the claim by a local man, who said he had served in the military, that much of the damage was consistent with a missile strike.

Over the weekend, western intelligence agencies pointed to mounting evidence that backs Ukraine’s claim that the aircraft with 298 people on board was shot down by mistake by pro-Russian separatists and Russian military personnel with an SA-11 missile launched from a Buk-M1 SAM battery.

Justin Bronk, an analyst at the Royal United Services Institute in London, said: “The size of the shrapnel holes is consistent with what one might expect to see from an SA-11 hit. However, it is difficult to assess the total blast pattern with such a small fragment of fuselage.”

Another analyst, Douglas Barrie of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said the photographic evidence “was consistent with the kind of damage you would expect to see from the detonation of a high explosive fragmentation warhead of the type commonly used in a SAM system”.

Both analysts cautioned, however, that further work would be needed to ascertain exactly what had happened, including chemical testing for explosive residue.

One former senior Royal Air Force officer who was shown the picture said he had seen similar damage on aircraft that had been hit by flying shrapnel from rocket attacks on airbases.

All three experts agreed that the large hole in the middle of the fragment was likely to have been punched from the inside out as the aircraft rapidly depressurised when it was hit at a height of 33,000ft last Thursday afternoon.

All three confirmed the part of the aircraft in the photograph was the port side of the Boeing 777’s cockpit. The former RAF officer, who flew fast jets, said that based on the evidence it would appear that the missile exploded in front and to the left of the aircraft.

Anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to score a direct hit as they are targeted to destroy fast, agile fighter jets. Instead, they are designed to explode within about 20m of their target, sending out a cloud of red hot metal to increase the chances of inflicting as much damage as possible.

The former RAF pilot said an explosion in front of the aircraft would be consistent with the interception course a SAM would be expected to follow. “The last thing a ground-launched missile wants to do is play catch-up with an aircraft, it would look to get ahead of its target,” he said. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388laoF6B

Link contains photo of a damaged piece of the Malaysian airline plane, as recovered.

 

[mandrill]

Nice twist of words. The post we were speaking of, the claims I made, were about the Canadian military deploying in support of Ukraine. My posts already adequately cover why a Canadian military deployment wouldn't help. If you want the Canadian military to send binoculars, go ahead and write to your MP. But bear in mind that 20 years ago our military officer recruits fired 1,000 rounds of ammunition as part of basic training, and today they fire 30. Don't forget too the M777 ammunition I mentioned that we can't afford to buy. We aren't exactly flush with supplies ourselves. I suppose we can close more veterans support centers to fund the Ukrainian army... Or maybe start charging soldiers for parking at work across the country like Halifax is doing. Maybe we can stop doing arms training altogether, or downsize again, that would work. We did just cut our military budget by $2.3 billion after all, of which almost half will impact our own military readiness, but I'm sure we could cut it more. I mean, maybe we can sell our new M777 for 30 cents on the dollar and keep flying our jets that were designed in 1978 for another 3 or 4 decades, perhaps keep the Sea King in the air a little longer too?

I suppose the government could take money out of a different department, or increase our debt, to fund Ukraine's military... But if it's not coming from the military's budget, it's really not something our "military" is doing to help at all.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/16/wings-phoenix-your-money-a-chance-to-avoid-funerals/

Plea for $ for helmets. Or perhaps even old Canadian army helmets.

As I recall your original post, the other poster asked if Canada could do something to assist Ukraine. You said "No. Ukraine has a huge, thriving arms industry." Nothing about our military.

But this is a thoroughly flogged horse and I am moving on. Even the most provocative post from you will not get a response.

 

[mandrill]

Ukrainian army claims this dude is the deputy defence minister of the Russian puppet state of South Ossetia, captured by them while apparently running around near Lugansk in his underwear on an official state visit to the People's Republic of Lugansk.

I would at least have worn a shirt.

 

[BlueLaser]

C'mon. Give it up. You're just being obtuse to annoy me.

The obvious answer is that Ukraine has an arms export industry because of its interconnection w Russia which dates back to before 1991. However..... that arms export industry doesn't outweigh the fact that the Donbas is fucked because most of its economy is based on coal mining. Despite an arms export industry. How many different ways do you want me to phrase it. And you already know this, I am sure.

I'm not being obtuse, you've being evasive.

I don't know how else to phrase it either.

You said you were unaware of any thriving industry in Eastern Ukraine and asked me to show you evidence of it. I show you a thriving arms manufacturing and sales trade and you respond you knew about that already. It's a thriving industry, the very thing you said you weren't aware of. So did you know about it or not?

You said Eastern Ukraine was a financial burden. Now you claim you were always aware of it's status as a massive manufacturer and exporter of arms. But you do so with the caveat that it's tied to Russia. Does Russian money evaporate the second it leaves Russia?

You said my links about Ukraine's arms industry were "not news", now you say Eastern Ukraine's arms industry is based on Russia... But my links showed them to be the 9th largest arms exporter in the world, the largest to the US (and the US isn't Russia as we all know).

Conclusion: You're making this up as you go. You "already knew it" when I brought it up but "weren't aware of it" before I mentioned it.

 

[BlueLaser]

Last time I checked, the RF had edged ahead of USA in % terms, although not in absolute terms. The journalist felt it was a significant development.

What's your argument that Eretria is "developed"? I need a chuckle.

What's your argument that Saudi Arabia, Israel and the UAE aren't? I threw Eritria in as a lark, given it's staggering % of GDP spent on the military. It was an interesting statistic.

 

[BlueLaser]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/16/wings-phoenix-your-money-a-chance-to-avoid-funerals/

Plea for $ for helmets. Or perhaps even old Canadian army helmets.

As I recall your original post, the other poster asked if Canada could do something to assist Ukraine. You said "No. Ukraine has a huge, thriving arms industry." Nothing about our military.

But this is a thoroughly flogged horse and I am moving on. Even the most provocative post from you will not get a response.

We moved on to the new style helmet a long time ago. The old ones are long gone. We still have a shortage of the kevlar helmets outselves.

 

[eznutz]

Malaysia Airlines flight over war-torn Syria draws fresh criticism

KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA (BNO NEWS) — A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane flying from Kuala Lumpur to London flew over Syria on Sunday, flight data showed, sparking a new wave of criticism for the airline just days after one of its airliners was shot down over a conflict zone in eastern Ukraine.

The log details published by flight tracking website Flightradar24 showed the flight path of Malaysia Airlines flight MH4, an Airbus A380 which departed Kuala Lumpur on early Sunday. The log showed the aircraft flying over Syria, which is in the midst of a raging civil war, from about 1:20 p.m. local time, flying close to the city of Homs.

 

[benstt]

But this is a thoroughly flogged horse and I am moving on. Even the most provocative post from you will not get a response.

Always ask yourself when you find yourself writing more than a few posts in a thread - am I being trolled?

 

[mandrill]

Always ask yourself when you find yourself writing more than a few posts in a thread - am I being trolled?

I pretty clearly am. I just politely played along w it for a page or so.

I'm putting Blue Lazer on "ignore" for a few weeks. That way, I don't have to deal with him.

When I checked his profile, I noted somewhat amusingly that it read "Blue Lazer has not made any friends yet."