Hamas and Fatah declare unity government

[basketcase]

Your hatred for Palis keeps you fanning the hatred. I don't think it should be imposed on anyone, but many Palis want the right of return. WTF do you think that means?

For a guy who complains about people throwing out accusations of anti-semitism, you sure are quick to accuse others of hatred.

No matter what you want, the Palestinians do not want a One-State solution with equal rights for all.

As for right of return, except for Palestinians actually born in Israel, there is no such thing as a right of RETURN.

 

[nottyboi]

The Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian Authority law courts. They have made it illegal for the camp dwellers to gain status in the country of their birth, their parents birth, grandparents birth. As a result they cannot own property, hold jobs, access normal schools and hospitals.

In Lebanon, for example, a third generation Palestinian cannot own the home they grew up in and live in, cannot leave it to their children. It becomes the property of the State when they die or move, ensuring that the Palestinian family remains locked in poverty with no means to amass wealth or savings assuming that they overcome the anti Palestinian employment laws.

The camps in Lebanon are essentially decaying prisons.

And Israeli courts have denied them any status in the land their parents were born. Or in many cases, where they were born. I guess more proof Israel is just another Arab country.

 

[nottyboi]

For a guy who complains about people throwing out accusations of anti-semitism, you sure are quick to accuse others of hatred.

No matter what you want, the Palestinians do not want a One-State solution with equal rights for all.

As for right of return, except for Palestinians actually born in Israel, there is no such thing as a right of RETURN.

According to Israeli law, the child of parents of Israeli origin can claim Israeli citizenship. Unless of course you are not a Jew, in which case, you are discriminated against and can go fuck yourself...so much for equality under the law.

 

[basketcase]

According to Israeli law, the child of parents of Israeli origin can claim Israeli citizenship. Unless of course you are not a Jew, in which case, you are discriminated against and can go fuck yourself...so much for equality under the law.

Now you are talking immigration policy. I'm sure that the future Palestinian state will likewise give preferential treatment to applications with ties to Palestine. Still doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians and Israelis are both overwhelmingly against a One State solution.

 

[fuji]

Yes, Israeli ethnic cleansing and apartheid has caused horrible situations in Israel and around as well.

But in order to fix those poor situations (which are not apartheid outside of Israel) we need to fix the source of the problems in Israel.

Sorry but you don't get to blame Israel for what the Lebanese have done. Every single time we discuss this, you immediately try and switch the topic to Israel -- it's a pathetic weasel move. Face up to what the Lebanese do to the Palestinians. Face up to what the Syrians do to the Palestinians. Face up to what the Palestinian Authority actually does to Palestinians in camps in their own damned territory.

Stop being a weasel and face the facts.

 

[fuji]

And Israeli courts have denied them any status in the land their parents were born. Or in many cases, where they were born. I guess more proof Israel is just another Arab country.

The Palestinians living in Israel all have full status and citizenship, equal rights, they own property, they hold down jobs. Sorry but you lose on this one.

EVEN IF you want to argue that these people should be admitted to Israel as immigrants, a ludicrous claim with no basis in international law, but even if that was your position there is no justification for the atrocity that the Lebanese in particular inflict on the Palestinians, that the Syrians do, and the miserable and cynical mistreatment of camp dwelling Palestinians by their own fellow Palestinians in the PA. No excuse for it at all.

But you and Groggy don't want to discuss this horrendous abuse of Palestinians, do you? You are only interested in discussing Palestinian refugees to the extent necessary to criticize Israel, and no more -- you don't really want to talk about their lot in life, who persecutes them, and why, because that doesn't actually help you hate and you don't really give a fuck about them at all.

 

[fuji]

According to Israeli law, the child of parents of Israeli origin can claim Israeli citizenship. Unless of course you are not a Jew, in which case, you are discriminated against and can go fuck yourself...so much for equality under the law.

So what? Israeli law also does not allow Filipinos to migrate into the country without restriction. Is this a problem? Japan has similar laws on the book, never heard you cook off about that. Why not? I can name dozens of countries for you that have immigration laws that discriminate on various factors that are usually unacceptable -- including Canada. We have age discrimination in our immigration law, which is a charter violation when applied to a domestic law.

Countries are entitled to decide which foreigners applying to immigrate they want to accept, as a means of planning the future demographic makeup of their country.

 

[groggy]

So what? Israeli law also does not allow Filipinos to migrate into the country without restriction.

Israel is the only country in the world that kicked out most of the natives and won't allow them to return.

 

[nottyboi]

Now you are talking immigration policy. I'm sure that the future Palestinian state will likewise give preferential treatment to applications with ties to Palestine. Still doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians and Israelis are both overwhelmingly against a One State solution.

So now you are saying all Israeli citizens are equal except under immigration law? Palestine is not a state. If I were there I would be more concerned with emigration then immigration. Saying they are for or against a one or two state policy is like saying they are for or against never never land at this point. Not worth arguing until a torrent of blood compels both sides to the bargaining table.

 

[fuji]

Israel is the only country in the world that kicked out most of the natives and won't allow them to return.

First, that is false. The Arab countries kicked out natives (Jews) and won't allow them to return. There were roughly equal numbers of Jewish and Arab refugees flowing across the front line in the Arab/Israeli conflict, about 700k in each direction. Native Middle Eastern Jews flowing into Israel from Arab countries they had lived in since recorded history, and Arabs flowing out of Israel into Arab countries. The numbers going in each direction were roughly the same, so your statement is just patently false. The Arab countries really did ethnically cleanse a lot of the natives and forced them out - and note that in many cases, the Arab ethnic cleansers were NOT natives, like the Hashemites who imposed themselves on Jordan even though they aren't from there, kicking out the Jews who WERE from there.

Second, Israel never kicked out anybody. The Arabs left because they lost the civil war they started and they refused to live under Jewish rule -- well, not all of them left: quite a lot stayed, got citizenship, and are still there.

 

[groggy]

Second, Israel never kicked out anybody.

Tell that to the UN and the 5 million refugees waiting for their rightful return.
Better yet, tell that to Netanyahu, whose coalition government contains a party that wants to ethnically cleanse the West Bank today.

 

[fuji]

Tell that to the UN and the 5 million refugees waiting for their rightful return.
Better yet, tell that to Netanyahu, whose coalition government contains a party that wants to ethnically cleanse the West Bank today.

They are. not waiting for rightful return, only about 30,000 of them lived in Israel. The rest are native born Lebanese, Syria, and the PA. There is no basis in any law or UN resolution for the ludicrous claim that they have some "ancestral" right to immigrate to Israel.

Complete bullshit. The right of return in the UDHC, etc., applies to people who HAVE citizenship, it is not a way of gaining citizenship.

I notice that you slunk away from responding to the point that Arab countries did kick out the natives and refuse to let them return, you just deleted that from my post and tried to hide from it.

 

[groggy]

They are. not waiting for rightful return, only about 30,000 of them lived in Israel. The rest are native born Lebanese, Syria, and the PA. There is no basis in any law or UN resolution for the ludicrous claim that they have some "ancestral" right to immigrate to Israel.

Tell that to the UNWRA who has been taking care of Israel's victims for nearly half a century now.

 

[fuji]

Tell that to the UNWRA who has been taking care of Israel's victims for nearly half a century now.

UNRWA does not believe they are Israeli citizens either. By policy, UNRWA does not comment on final status issues, but simply calls for a "just resolution" without defining what that is.

There are only 30,000 or so who lived in Israel. The rest are clearly native to Lebanon, Syria, etc.

 

[groggy]

UNRWA does not believe they are Israeli citizens either. By policy, UNRWA doors not comment on final status issues, but simply calls fire a resolution.

Of course not, the UNRWA recognizes them as stateless refugees, as are all Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.
And why won't Israel respond to UNRWA calls for a resolution to this issue?

 

[fuji]

Of course not, the UNRWA recognizes them as stateless refugees, as are all Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.
And why won't Israel respond to UNRWA calls for a resolution to this issue?

Why are they Israel's problem? Israel needs to compensate people who lost property, but it is Lebanon and Syria that need to step up here. These people are multi generation Syrian and Lebanese. That is where they were born and it is criminal that they don't have citizenship in the country of their birth.

Israel already absorbed 700,000 refugees from the 48 war. Israel has done its bit.

 

[groggy]

Why are they Israel s problem? .

As stated in the report:

The state of Israel has displaced and dispossessed the majority of the Palestinian population over a period
of more than six decades. Therefore, Israel, by definition, is not providing Palestinians with the protection
required by international law. Israel’s legal obligations apply in the entire territory over which it has
sovereignty or exercises jurisdiction, that is, Israel and the oPt. In the oPt, the Palestinian Authority (PA)
has protection responsibilities towards the Palestinian population but its ability to protect is constrained
by the Israeli Occupying Power, which exercises effective control over both the West Bank and the Gaza
Strip.15

 

[fuji]

That is about the West Bank and Gaza, I agree that Israel has obligations as an occupier for the people there.

Israel has no obligation to those born and living in Lebanon and Syria, other than to pay compensation to their grandparents for any property they forfeit after deciding to emigrate.

BTW, "BADIL" is a partisan source, like quoting IDF.

 

[groggy]

BTW, "BADIL" is a partisan source, like quoting IDF.

This was for your pathetic apartheid accusation against the PLO. It's very clear that you have no idea what Palestinians think or feel on the matter.

 

[fuji]

This was for your pathetic apartheid accusation against the PLO. It's very clear that you have no idea what Palestinians think or feel on the matter.

The PLO had herded Palestinians into camps and oppressed them, while stealing hundreds of millions from the Palestinian people. It has repeatedly failed to accept peace deals that would meaningfully improve Palestinian lies.

Absolutely the Palestinian people have been exploited by the PLO, abused by the PLO, and lied to by the PLO.

Your only argument that it is not apartheid is a technicality: the systematic abuse and exploitation are there, the two tier citizenship is there, but the basis of the discrimination in the PA is ancestral national origin rather than race.

In Lebanon, however, it does appear to be discrimination based on race, with the complicity of the PLO for its own self serving cynical reasons.