Ontario electricity price hike...again.

fuji

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As long as the "government" takes the risk with your money,...I'd be OK with that,...problem is,...they risk/waste my money too,...and with lousy/NO returns to boot.
Too bad most people don't agree with your narrow minded and stupid conception of what government is for. I vote for government that takes risks in such matters.

It is indeed the job of the government to coerce and incent the development of strategically important technologies, and where the risks/rewards aren't sufficient in and of themselves for private industry to do that alone, it is the job of government either to sweeten the pot so that they will do so, or make the alternatives illegal so that they have no choice. I guess the third alternative is for the government to develop the technology itself directly, which sometimes the military has done, but probably most of us agree it's better to find a way to push private industry into doing it.

Another great example is emissions technology. There was no interest in that from private industry until California made it illegal to sell cars that didn't measure up. That regulatory regime sparked an incredible amount of research that never would have happened without government pressure. That's the stick approach. Bribing companies to develop green energy infrastructure is the carrot approach.

Whether the carrot is better or worse than the stick we can debate sometime, but clearly, it's the job of government to be using these tools to drive strategic technology development.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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Grow up

Too bad most people don't agree with your narrow minded and stupid conception of what government is for. I vote for government that takes risks in such matters..
Look DICK WAD,...if you can't debate me without personal insults,... S. T. F. U.

You said it was up to governments to take the risks,...now your saying its to coerce,...make up your "mind",... what there is of it.
So you voting for the liberals,...that worked out well.

It is indeed the job of the government to coerce and incent the development of strategically important technologies, and where the risks/rewards aren't sufficient in and of themselves for private industry to do that alone, it is the job of government either to sweeten the pot so that they will do so, or make the alternatives illegal so that they have no choice. I guess the third alternative is for the government to develop the technology itself directly, which sometimes the military has done, but probably most of us agree it's better to find a way to push private industry into doing it..
Give me one example of the military developing ANYTHING that benefited us ???

Another great example is emissions technology. There was no interest in that from private industry until California made it illegal to sell cars that didn't measure up. That regulatory regime sparked an incredible amount of research that never would have happened without government pressure. That's the stick approach. Bribing companies to develop green energy infrastructure is the carrot approach.
And just what risks did the CA government take when it set higher (lower) pollution requirements than the rest of the US,...NONE.

If you had the slightest clue what you were taking about,...the biggest gains in meeting CA's rules were already developed by the Japanese and the Europeans.
What the big 3 came up with, was absolute crap,...so much for you theory.

Does anybody remember the ritual of shutting down a big 3 motor in that era,...turn off the key and wait for 5 minutes for the motor to make what sounded like a slow death rattle, before it stopped,...so that worked out brilliantly !!!

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groggy

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Mar 21, 2011
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In the same manner that I think we should be phasing in wind/solar at a sensible pace, I do not think we should outright dismiss coal. If you really want Ontario to have a smart mix of generation sources (which would optimize security and adequacy ... a couple of crucial electricity sector terms), then coal would have a role. Even the previous auditor general's office (in a previous report to the one on the cancelled gas plants) questioned why we were spending billions on new gas plants while shutting down 6,000 MW of perfectly good capacity at Nanticoke and Lambton. And therein is a key word: capacity. I don't advocate using coal anywhere near the extent that was done in the past by Ontario Hydro, but those of you who understand the difference between capacity and energy will know that if we really wanted to have a smart generation mix, we would be wise to keep two Lambton units and two Nanticoke units around for capacity. Furthermore, coal generating station have advantages even over natural gas. First - coal prices are much less volatile than nat gas adding predictability to electricity prices. Second - coal plants have on site fuel storage providing better security of supply than gas. Does anyone ever get curious about whether there is enough pipeline capacity to supply building/residential heat and power generation during extended nipply cold snaps? How about when a pipeline gets forced out of service at the same time? There are no restrictions on supplying coal into a station during those times. There are restrictions on those competing for the gas (although Marcellus fracked gas should alleviate that problem). Third - coal plants have much better turn down ratio, which refers to the ratio of minimum load to full load allowing a coal plant to provide much twice as much ramp capability as a similar sized combined cycle gas plant and more operating reserve. And this is why the Germans are turning back to coal instead of gas ..... too much renewables has significantly increased the amount operating reserve required and this need is better met by coal than nat gas. In Ontario the coal plants are built and long ago paid for. Do we really want to throw these assets away? The auditor general - who is not an electricity sector pro - thinks that we should not. And the last time I looked, this province wasn't in a financial position to by throwing out serviceable assets that cost billions to replace. The coal would not run every day, only during times of peak demand.
Sure, coal is cheapish and dependable, but the CO2 output, even with good scrubbers, is too high and that's the reason it should be eliminated.

But the key question is:
What other options are there?
 

fuji

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Give me one example of the military developing ANYTHING that benefited us ???
Jet aircraft. Radar. Nuclear power. GPS. Artificial rubber (the kind used in all weather tires). Oops, more than one, sorry.

And just what risks did the CA government take when it set higher (lower) pollution requirements than the rest of the US,...NONE.
Certainly at the time there was much consternation that the move ess going to be big trouble for California's economy.

If you had the slightest clue what you were taking about,...the biggest gains in meeting CA's rules were already developed by the Japanese and the Europeans.
And? Seems the policy worked. California's policy appears to have spurred Japanese and European automakers to do that. California being their most important market.
 

elmo

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Oct 23, 2002
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Well this got off track...quel surprise! The point is that the Libs told us to use electricity on off peak hours to save money...and now we're saving less. They lied...again.
 

FAST

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Jet aircraft. Radar. Nuclear power. GPS. Artificial rubber (the kind used in all weather tires). Oops, more than one, sorry..
Your examples were developed in times of war ( except GPS).


Certainly at the time there was much consternation that the move ess going to be big trouble for California's economy.
And? Seems the policy worked. California's policy appears to have spurred Japanese and European automakers to do that. California being their most important market.
As I said,...CA did not have any risks when creating the laws,...CA was NOT known to make a lot cars,...the real incentive was the worst pollution in the country.
As I said,...the Japanese and European automakers had ALREADY developed/introduced most of the technology, that was used to decrease pollutants.

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FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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Still lying

Well this got off track...quel surprise! The point is that the Libs told us to use electricity on off peak hours to save money...and now we're saving less. They lied...again.
Correct,...when we consider that power is sold (given away) at a much lower rate during off peak,...makes this total bull shit.

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fuji

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Well this got off track...quel surprise! The point is that the Libs told us to use electricity on off peak hours to save money...and now we're saving less. They lied...again.
The off peak rates are still lower. So, you are the liar. Not the liberals.
 

dirk076

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Sep 24, 2004
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The off peak rates are still lower. So, you are the liar. Not the liberals.
Seriously fuji, how can you possibly defend the record of this government? Corrupt, thieving, liars. They should be shot and pissed on for what they have done to this once great province.
 

elmo

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Oct 23, 2002
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The off peak rates are still lower. So, you are the liar. Not the liberals.
The off peak increases are a higher percentage than the peak periods. So, you are incapable of providing an objective opinion. The Libs are the liars, you are a follower.
 

groggy

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Mar 21, 2011
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Seriously fuji, how can you possibly defend the record of this government? Corrupt, thieving, liars. They should be shot and pissed on for what they have done to this once great province.
Bad management, sure, but 'corrupt, thieving, liars'?
You are off your meds again, dirk.
 

dirk076

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Sep 24, 2004
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Bad management, sure, but 'corrupt, thieving, liars'?
You are off your meds again, dirk.
E-Health, Ornge, the Green Energy fiasco, Gas plants, Pan-Am Games, Ontario's have not status, etc, etc., etc. You are off your meds if you can't trace the money to countless Liberal bagmen, including the new Premier's wife. There is nothing redeemable about anyone tied to McGuinty. The lot of them should be in prison.
 

IM469

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Jul 5, 2012
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Seriously fuji, how can you possibly defend the record of this government? Corrupt, thieving, liars. They should be shot and pissed on for what they have done to this once great province.
I can't imagine why so many have a preference for either a blue or a red dick up there ass fucking them for additional money.

I am old enough to remember Hydro ads on TV bragging that while the cost of everything has gone up - electricity has always gone down because of ever improving technology to produce it. Just after that Bill Davis's conservative government and Ont. Hydro went on an out of control spending spree for plants like Darlington that ballooned costs to the users and the tax payers. The delivery charge portion of your monthly electricity bill is a little lingering VD type itch from years of conservative arrogance and waste.

Now we have the Liberals playing politics with the new plant locations and promoting a type of shell game promising to give a discount when the reality is that they will never (ever) decrease the amount of our hard earned money they are grabbing.

They are all parasites. We should put broken election promises to get your money (through elections) under the same rule we have for the private sector (e.g.: fraud)
 

Marcus1027

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Feb 5, 2006
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The off peak rates are still lower. So, you are the liar. Not the liberals.
Please Fuji, the liberals are the poster childeren for duplicity and yet you continue defending this ratbag government that has done nothing but lie to us from day one.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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Please Fuji, the liberals are the poster childeren for duplicity and yet you continue defending this ratbag government that has done nothing but lie to us from day one.
Except your claim was the false claim. The off peak rates are still lower. You lied!
 

dirk076

Member
Sep 24, 2004
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Except your claim was the false claim. The off peak rates are still lower. You lied!
Hydro rates have increased 75 percent under Dalton McGuinty or over 100 per cent for families, seniors and small businesses with an activated smart meter.

An Ontario Energy Board report, released on March 3, 2010, shows the cost of installing so-called smart meters on Ontario homes and small businesses reached over $994.4 million as of September 2010.

A study by the well regarded Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters estimates the average Ontario family’s hydro bill will increase by $732 a year by 2015.

These corrupt pieces of shit are good for nothing but draining us of our earned income through boondoggles and thievary. They are maggots on shit.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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However the claim made by a few on this thread was that you don't save money by switching to of peak rates. You do, so those posters were lying.
 

Art Mann

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May 10, 2010
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Maybe we're not the only ones who find electricity rates a pain in the ass

 
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