Steeles Royal

Man with knife on streetcar at Dundas and Grace, shot by police

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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It doesn't matter what his intentions were; they never materialized. What matters is what he was alone trapped in a streetcar when he was killed. The cop wasn't evaluating the situation clearly and exceeded required force.
Actually he intentions matter. A lot. IF they had been somehow communicated to the officers on site. Because then it goes from scared, distraught 18 year old possibly having a breakdown to knife weilding would be hostage taker of middle eastern descent(to bad about profiling but that's the real world) on public transit. Same would be hostage taker acting in a threatening and suicidal manner towards the police.

And the decision when it appears he is making a threatening move is split second.

Like I said. I'll wait for more testimony and evidence to come to light. But both scenarios are possible in the heat of the moment.
 

KBear

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Can you not read? You quoted me saying "you don't wait".
you wrote
pointz said:
Also, you don't wait. As soon as you arrive and realize that you need more qualified help, you call for it. Should not take more than a few minutes...
Ok, so is acceptable to wait 3 minutes. If the qualified help is further away, you end it one way or another.


pointz said:
Have you ever fired a gun? Do you know that there's nothing to be afraid of when you're holding it? Definitely not a guy with a knife a few metres away.
Handguns are not really that powerful, and do not generally kill immediately. People hit with a bullet from a handgun mostly die from blood loss which can take some time, unless they are hit in the head. Hitting a moving target, even if it is close, with a handgun is not so easy. At 2m someone would most likely be able to stab you even after being shot.

A knife can also be thrown by some with deadly accuracy.
 

IM469

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Jul 5, 2012
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I just saw the CCTV footage. It is much worse than I suspected. There was little or no provocation - certainly not any indication he was even going for the door. He was also totally helpless (no threat) when the next 6 bullets flew. I read that the chief was shocked at this video - it is a clear view into the streetcar. Anyone supporting this kind of cop behavior has a few issues of his own to resolve.

 

bammab007

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Jan 23, 2010
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I just saw the CCTV footage. It is much worse than I suspected. There was little or no provocation - certainly not any indication he was even going for the door. He was also totally helpless (no threat) when the next 6 bullets flew. I read that the chief was shocked at this video - it is a clear view into the streetcar. Anyone supporting this kind of cop behavior has a few issues of his own to resolve.

he moved. they said not to. he had knife. only issue is with your bleeding heart.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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he moved. they said not to. he had knife. only issue is with your bleeding heart.
In that particular moment you are correct. However it appears they blundered badly before that, and after that.

Before that -- what the hell were they doing getting so close to a guy with a knife that he was a threat to them? That is a class A fuck up.

After that -- six seconds, aim at the guy on the ground, fire another six shots -- AIM AT THE GUY ON THE GROUND. Really? Did he present any threat at that point?
 

explorerzip

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2006
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A shot from a sniper rifle to a stationary man's knee from where Jimmy The Killer was standing? Extremely difficult indeed.
Sniper rifles can't be used like pistols up close as in video games. First of all, they're heavy especially unsupported. Secondly, the scope (and other cops) are in the way of the shooter's view. Could they have taken the scope off? Sure, but it's not a quick operation. I'm sure the ETF is trained very well, but they're not super human. Also, it's kind of difficult to climb up the stairs of a street car while pointing a rifle at someone and not breaking view.
 

spielburg

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Jan 29, 2013
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What a messed up situation this has become. This video will be used what not do for training LE ! The kid wasn't a bad ass criminal. He did commit a crime. Death wasn't necessary. The cop should face charges. The cops is to serve and protect. He was a scared! I don't know why. All the cops looked scared. He had a knife. Training is needed badly. Toronto is looking like a lame joke lately. mayor and now police.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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While you're at it, we might want to review all the various security people like armoured car guards that carry guns. They have even less training than the TPS.
Actually, both groups receive roughly the same amount of training, at least with handguns. Security guards can't carry Tasers, OC spray, shotguns or C8s but the familiarization with the Ontario Use of Force Model and handgun qualifications are very comparable.
 

lovelatinas

Retired
Sep 30, 2008
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I am afraid to say that the trigger happy cop is coming out of this unscathed. I am betting that there was evidence tampering and the the other 21 cops are lying to the SIU (which really has no power over the Toronto Police) back their buddy cop. The SIU and Ontario Ombudsmen have made several recommendations in 9 past police shootings and Toronto Police have ignored them. So really what is the fuckin point of having SIU and the Ontario Ombudsmen when they are useless?

In Montreal recently, a 12 hour standoff and police capture their suspect without deadly force, they use rubber bullets.

Toronto is looking like a US crime ridden city, where people are scared of criminals and people can't even trust the cops. This is bad for the City Of Toronto. The mayor is a joke so is the Police.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I wonder if the subject officer was a video gamer. It is possible his response was programmed by exposure to video games....
Video games are the devil's tool (or is that rock and roll or was it greek tragedies...)
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Do you guys know that the streetcar doors can be locked from the outside with the key that that TTC driver probably had on him?
Did you know that the streetcar was still engaged and he could have driven off and into who knows what?
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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A sniper could have also walked right up to that door and shot him in the knee. You are making it more difficult than it should be.
I love the crazy second guessing that goes against the training for every police force in the world. Maybe they should have used a tranquilizer dart?
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Can you not read? You quoted me saying "you don't wait". I never said they should try to wrestle. Don't make things up. I said try to enter, then open fire if still necessary. Have you ever fired a gun? Do you know that there's nothing to be afraid of when you're holding it? Definitely not a guy with a knife a few metres away.
Really? Try and enter a bus when a guy with a knife is two steps away?
 

MattRoxx

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Nov 13, 2011
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Did you know that the streetcar was still engaged and he could have driven off and into who knows what?
This is absolutely not true, and the police in the video show no concern about Yatim even thinking about driving off. He wasn't going anywhere, and less than a minute after the shooting a sergeant shows up with a taser.
All the trigger-happy cop had to do was wait a few more seconds (like all the other cops around him) and this could have been resolved without a teenager being killed.

I've been on the streetcar when the driver left and went across the street to get a coffee. Had no idea this meant that the police could have stood outside and shot me and the other passengers to prevent us from stealing the streetcar and going on a track-guided rampage.

Interesting analysis here:
http://globalnews.ca/news/751568/watch-former-police-officer-analyzes-streetcar-shooting-video/
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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Cop is getting threats: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/31/toronto-cop-in-sammy-yatim-shooting-being-threatened


Toronto cop in Sammy Yatim shooting being threatened

The Toronto Police officer who shot and killed a knife-wielding Sammy Yatim on a TTC streetcar Saturday is being threatened.

The threats have been aimed at Const. James Forcillo online and electronically and Toronto Police Association president Mike McCormack said he’s worried about the officer and his family.

“It’s mostly on social media, mainly comments that are, at the very least, inappropriate,” the union boss said Wednesday. “But the tone and nature of others is more concerning.”

He said one Twitter user tweeted: “We know where you are. Expect us.”

“That’s just inappropriate,” McCormack said.

The name of the 14 Division officer, who has six years of service, was revealed in the media Tuesday.

McCormack said the threats have picked up since then.

“It’s elevated the stress for our officer,” he said, adding Forcillo and his family are going through a lot as it is.

McCormack repeated his request that people to wait for the investigation to unfold before judging the officer.

Meanwhile, Ontario’s Special Investigations Unit confirmed they are aware of a YouTube video showing emergency responders trampling through the scene of the shooting early Saturday.

But while the SIU acknowledged such behaviour would be troubling, they haven’t said if their investigation into Forcillo was affected.

”We are always concerned about the integrity of the scene,” SIU spokesman Monica Hudon said.

The video clearly shows officers, firefighters and paramedics walking through the spot where Forcillo stood on Dundas St. W. as he fired into the streetcar.

Cops are also seen standing on, even kicking, some of the nine spent shell casings.

Disturbing footage of the moment Yatim was gunned down surfaced online immediately after the shooting, sparking public outrage.

Those videos also show another officer entering the rear of the streetcar and apparently Tasering Yatim’s lifeless body, nearly a minute after Forcillo fired his ninth bullet.

That second officer is not under SIU investigation because the teen was already incapacitated by gunshots, possibly even dead, so the Tasering doesn’t fall under the police watchdog’s mandate of probing serious injuries or death involving cops.

“We are of the view that only one subject officer caused Mr. Yatim’s death,” Hudon said. “Accordingly, one officer has been designated as the subject officer.”

Toronto Police say the second officer’s actions may be examined as part of Chief Bill Blair’s investigation
 

blackrock13

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Jun 6, 2009
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This is absolutely not true, and the police in the video show no concern about Yatim even thinking about driving off. He wasn't going anywhere, and less than a minute after the shooting a sergeant shows up with a taser.
All the trigger-happy cop had to do was wait a few more seconds (like all the other cops around him) and this could have been resolved without a teenager being killed.

I've been on the streetcar when the driver left and went across the street to get a coffee. Had no idea this meant that the police could have stood outside and shot me and the other passengers to prevent us from stealing the streetcar and going on a track-guided rampage.

Interesting analysis here:
http://globalnews.ca/news/751568/watch-former-police-officer-analyzes-streetcar-shooting-video/

Did you have a weapon and threatened others on the s/c? Probably not, although from your post in this thread we might wonder.
 

blackrock13

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Jun 6, 2009
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I am afraid to say that the trigger happy cop is coming out of this unscathed. I am betting that there was evidence tampering and the the other 21 cops are lying to the SIU (which really has no power over the Toronto Police) back their buddy cop. The SIU and Ontario Ombudsmen have made several recommendations in 9 past police shootings and Toronto Police have ignored them. So really what is the fuckin point of having SIU and the Ontario Ombudsmen when they are useless?

In Montreal recently, a 12 hour standoff and police capture their suspect without deadly force, they use rubber bullets.

Toronto is looking like a US crime ridden city, where people are scared of criminals and people can't even trust the cops. This is bad for the City Of Toronto. The mayor is a joke so is the Police.
Yup, totally unscathed. As a matter of fact, he and the guys are yuking it up at the local or on the cottage patio, telling their story to those who weren't there. He's got something new to tell the family at the next reunion.:wink: Don't bet the farm just yet. Name just three recommendation that have been made and not followed. A 12 hour standoff, Christ there would be some members on here complaining about the overtime. Shoot the prick and get back to the house.
 
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