Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?

[Yoga Face]

There is no savings if an incremental student leaves
You still have to pay for infrastructure, teachers and admin salaries if enrollment in a class is 25 or 26 students
Again you show you are oblivious to the reality of the situation

of course

one student leaving saves nothing

as well, because he was probably a good student the class is worse off

now if thousands leave you can shut down a school or even better sell it to a private school

You came up with an answer and claim it will save money, but now you claim it s not fair of me to expect you to know the numbers????
Your credibility suffers with ever post, consider doing some homework before declaring a solution

never, ever made such a claim


i said it very well may save monies but needs to be studied

u expect me to figure costs out ???

i have no way

that is the governments job

At an incremental cost to the taxpayer? No thanks

Back of the envelope calculation
Total 2013 budget = $23.5 B >> $24 B
Guessimate 2 MM students enrolled across the province. (A genius like you should be able to search for 2013 enrollment levels in Ont)
Cost is approx. $12,000 per kid / year

why insult me?

my turn to make you look stupid

those are simple statistics and statistics have to be deeply studied to escape their lies

so what do those numbers include ?

probably not the cost of building the school (capitalization costs)

or the loss of tax revenue from the prime real estate schools sit on

etc etc

seems like well over 12 k per student

who knows for sure ? anyone ?

the government is a blind spending machine

private enterprise is not

How long do you think that would take one year, two maybe?
Get real

do private schools have unions now ??

treat employees right and they do not unionize

A nice utopian idea, however not at all practical
And it would add a whole additional layer of costly administration
I also suspect the quality of education would be disrupted and I suspect some kids would be denied. All kids deserve a quality education, regardless of their parents income

Forced studies ?

Fix the cost problem before you go set up a separate School board so gay kids can be themselves
Get your priorities right and do some homework before proclaiming a solution

separate school board for gays ????

who said that ?

if a gay wants to go to a private gay school it is his inalienable right to do so
this right has been stolen because the government took all the educational monies

Vouchers, a ridiculous idea

some say they are working in other parts of the planet and some say they are not

a lot of very bright people agree with me and a lot do not


look, above and beyond the money issue is the right of an individual to freely educate themselves in an environ they choose


you sound like a commie

with your saving monies before people have freedom argument


yet you insist the rich have freedom to get richer and richer and richer simply because they are rich


look, john, argue this one


at the downtown ymca the local gay community set up a survival reading/writing/arithematic course for the gays who had been so ostracized by the school system (and their families) they were now on the street and illiterate

the room was free and so were the teachers and so were the used books

so, these kids were getting an education that was infinitly surperior (for them) than the public schools (because there they learned zero and to get anything from zero you must multiply by infinity) because they were in a supportive environment that gave them self esteem so they could finally learn


costs for this infinitly surperior (for them) private education ????? was $0

the costs to be fucked up by the public school? By your numbers it is well over 12K per year


the value of finally getting an education and, more importantly, self worth

priceless

 

[GameBoy27]

Toronto District School Board sick days up 22% as teachers no longer allowed to ‘bank’ time.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/tdsb-sick-days/

New figures from the Toronto District School Board show a 22% spike in teachers reporting in sick last month compared to the previous year, and a 53% jump from three years ago.

The recent increase echoes similar reports at other school boards in the wake of the provincial government’s end to the practice of school employees’ sick day “banking.”

Numbers compiled by the school board for National Post show there were 33,494 sick days collectively taken by TDSB teachers in May, compared to 27,456 sick days taken in May, 2012. The TDSB has a total of 16,259 teachers in its system this year, so the new numbers average out to just over two sick days per teacher in May alone.

The figures show an even more dramatic jump in sick days taken over the last three years, with 11,663 more sick days taken in May 2013 compared to May 2010, when the board had 16,077 teachers, for an average of about 1.3 sick days per teacher.

This is teachers giving the finger to the students, parents and the Liberal government. So much for it being all about the students. Once again, teachers setting a fine example for their students. The lesson for today is, screw the taxpayer!

 

[guelph]

Could I have a show of hands --- which of you would give several thousand dollars that was due to you without a fight? this negotiated and accepted by all parties. The teachers who had saved the time in case of serious illness are now out of luck. Some municipal governments did a buy

 

[CTSblues]

I disagree that those are the left are more honest about things...idealogues are by their very nature, for wont of a better term, dishonest about things in order to support their agenda (left or right). They all skew things to their side, be it facts or interpretations. Generally I distrust the right and am fearful of the left (principally because the left has taken the holier than thou mantle, albeit atheistically, and the left has a vise-grip hold of the media).

My idea is that people left-of-centre are more honest concerning the issue of why I should be responsible for others’ social spending. They are certainly every bit as self-serving as the people on the right in other matters that are close to their heart. I have no doubt I can do well whether the country is left-leaning or right-leaning, as long as they apply their policies consistently. It is the cynicism of partisan politics, and of course, hypocrisy that bother me.

Besides the media, people on the left also dominate the nation’s best universities. At least it is the case in the U.S.

 

[CTSblues]

one is wise to realize one has only enough knowledge to be dangerous

also that it is impossible to be objective so ones opinion is always coloured in gray (including this one)


decision making needs to be a hard, long thought out process

a process that will only reduce mistakes not eliminate them

Very true. I am impressed by your ability to see shades of grey.

 

[CTSblues]

so u would take freedom away from people based on a theoretical argument which in turn is based on a theoretical belief that vouchers mean segregation ?

most private schools are inclusive so that fear seems moot

No. I am just showing you the other side of the argument. As I said before, I feel very comfortable about having a voucher for all my social spending. In fact, I would just LOVE it.

Private schools are not inclusive. We can look at the States to get an idea where we are going with that. To compete successfully against other private schools, you need to make your school more elite. The way to do that is to keep the school population small, increase tuition and to compete for a more desirable student body. In other words, unless you are the (lucky?) token poor, you are out of luck.

 

[DTECanada]

My idea is that people left-of-centre are more honest concerning the issue of why I should be responsible for others’ social spending. They are certainly every bit as self-serving as the people on the right in other matters that are close to their heart. I have no doubt I can do well whether the country is left-leaning or right-leaning, as long as they apply their policies consistently. It is the cynicism of partisan politics, and of course, hypocrisy that bother me.

Besides the media, people on the left also dominate the nation’s best universities. At least it is the case in the U.S.

You may be right on a large scale about how the left is honest about the reason for social spending, but they are not honest about the costs and implementation of social spending in many cases. For example, the wage and benefit issues for teachers as discussed here. Also in the US the "Obamaphone" program which, unknown to most, was actually a program initiated by Reagan to ensure poor people had home phones and has now to into a free cell phone program for anyone who cares to scam the system. The cost of the program has skyrocketed in the last four years. Basically the left demonises anyone with money (except they themselves) and demands they hand it over to those without wealth, whether deserving or not. Just like one cannot say everyone without wealth deserves to be poor, one cannot say that everyone who is affluent does not deserve to have wealth.
I mentioned to one person who said he would never vote Republican for president in the US because of the abortion issue that there was no way abortion would ever become illegal based on who is president. He said yeah, but funding is going down. Wait, abortions are supposed to be paid for by tax dollars? Why does that procedure warrant a federal subsidy?
The general view regarding social spending: left says everything should be paid for on federal level; right says defence should be paid for on federal level and other social spending should be done at the state, local, or provincial level.
I think often that is a misconception, that those on the right want to leave people high and dry, when they've always held things should be handled best at the local level.
Those who fear too much power at the federal level should like that.
That said, as many including you have pointed out, there are no easy answers.

 

[Yoga Face]

Private schools are not inclusive. We can look at the States to get an idea where we are going with that. To compete successfully against other private schools, you need to make your school more elite. The way to do that is to keep the school population small, increase tuition and to compete for a more desirable student body. In other words, unless you are the (lucky?) token poor, you are out of luck.

the states do not have vouchers (except milwaukee)

it seems to me private are inclusive in the sense that race etc does not matter

the good private schools have standards so those who refuse to or cannot learn are not part of the body

but there will be schools for them, if not then public schools will have a gap to fill

waldorf , montessori are inclusive of everyone including the slow are they not?

they have few problem students because students are taught respect at the beginning (4 years old) is what i have been told

if inclusive means you must learn to associate with a trouble maker or be held back by a slow learner then i say fuck inclusiveness

but to me it means all races and religions are in most private schools (are some exceptions)

the reason we see all white private schools is because the whites have the money

which creates a two tier education

with vouchers everyone now has the money so the playing field is more level although the rich will always have some advantage

 

[JohnLarue]

You know what they say Johnnyboy... a righteous man avoids all extremes. It's a crime that you come and spout your obviously politically agenda'd claptrap like a broken record. I think I'd rather listen to a living breathing human being than a robot.

Then put me on ignore
Drop dead

 

[JohnLarue]

People who say that there is no competition in the public system clearly have no idea as to what is really going on right now in Ontario

1) The public competes with the catholic and private schools in a region of dropping enrolments
2) Within schools, teachers, especially those who teach electives compete with each other to ensure that their classes run. Not enough students enrolling for elective classes mean that they do not run.

True economic competition would address the cost problem
What you are describing does not appear to phase the unions when demanding more

 

[JohnLarue]

u expect me to figure costs out ???

i have no way

that is the governments job

1. I showed you
2. If your solution is not based on numerical work, it is not of any use
Do not lose sight of the problem, it is a cost problem

why insult me?

Why not, you are oblivious to the reality and appear far too self assured

my turn to make you look stupid

Good luck

those are simple statistics and statistics have to be deeply studied to escape their lies

They tell the story
Speaking of lies your agenda is quite different than you portray
You would drive costs up by creating an unmanageable administrative nightmare

so what do those numbers include ?

They are actual and budget numbers so it is the cash the gov't has and proposes spending on education

probably not the cost of building the school (capitalization costs)

So what?
Since it is govt budget it probably does include funds for construction of new schools. Those are need regardless of the operating costs
Will your voucher system require new buildings?


You have a value $12K
Will your hair brained idea work or will it not?
I say not

or the loss of tax revenue from the prime real estate schools sit on

you want to fund this nightmare by selling the assets?
You can only do that once. If the operating costs can not stand on their own, it is doomed to failure

seems like well over 12 k per student

who knows for sure ? anyone ?

Then how in the world can you say you have a solution?
You just want to change things for special interest groups and you really do not know or care if the costs will go up

the government is a blind spending machine

private enterprise is not

I agree, however private enterprise will not guarantee every child gets a quality education and that is unacceptable
It will be pay for play.

Why go there ?
Simply forcing teachers to take a 15% cut in salary and benefit solves the issue

do private schools have unions now ??

treat employees right and they do not unionize

So you would pay more than $83K per
That appears to be the teacher's line in the sand for being treated right

separate school board for gays ????

who said that ?

if a gay wants to go to a private gay school it is his inalienable right to do so
this right has been stolen because the government took all the educational monies

You want to ensure gay students can be them selves and chose they type of school they want
What else can that mean?

some say they are working in other parts of the planet and some say they are not

a lot of very bright people agree with me and a lot do not

look, above and beyond the money issue is the right of an individual to freely educate themselves in an environ they choose

That is not at all practical for every child in Ont
If you provide gay students with an schooling environment of their choice, then a muslin student will want their own environment, as will Hindu students, mandarin , Cantonese ... etc
This will be a mess

It is also now where near as important the right of every child to have access to education

you sound like a commie

with your saving monies before people have freedom argument

Ha Ha
That's too much
Better dead than red

yet you insist the rich have freedom to get richer and richer and richer simply because they are rich

No they should have the freedom to create wealth and not have it stolen by left-wing pinkos like yourself, who are too stupid to understand what drives our economy

look, john, argue this one

at the downtown ymca the local gay community set up a survival reading/writing/arithematic course for the gays who had been so ostracized by the school system (and their families) they were now on the street and illiterate

the room was free and so were the teachers and so were the used books

so, these kids were getting an education that was infinitly surperior (for them) than the public schools (because there they learned zero and to get anything from zero you must multiply by infinity) because they were in a supportive environment that gave them self esteem so they could finally learn


costs for this infinitly surperior (for them) private education ????? was $0

Nice story
It relied on a free ride for rent, the books and who ever was kind enough to devote their time to help these people

Unfortunately , you have to scale this up for 2 + MM kids and you are not going to get that free ride on that scale
Apparently that costs $24 B
You are a dreamer and a fool

the costs to be fucked up by the public school? By your numbers it is well over 12K per year

So in the end you have nothing tangible to offer, other than complaints
Your complaints are not even focussed
You blame the rich, the govt and the education system, yet you are oblivious to the costs

But you still insist you know better

the value of finally getting an education and, more importantly, self worth

priceless

You were short changed on yours

 

[shakenbake]

Could I have a show of hands --- which of you would give several thousand dollars that was due to you without a fight? this negotiated and accepted by all parties. The teachers who had saved the time in case of serious illness are now out of luck. Some municipal governments did a buy

That would be much like some federal government employees who don't have short term disability coverage, compared to the private sector. By that, I mean the banking of sick days.

 

[JohnLarue]

That would be much like some federal government employees who don't have short term disability coverage, compared to the private sector. By that, I mean the banking of sick days.

The banking of sick days in the private sector is a very rare and excessive benefit.

How in the world will those poor Fed govt employees survive?
My god, our govt must be heartless tyrants, to over pay and under work these poor devils and then leave them without bankable sick days!!!
What is tis world coming to if a union can not count on the Feds for excessive, unnecessary and easy to abuse benefits ?

The Ont teachers sick rate has not surprisingly skyrocketed as teachers by the score were sick , just prior to the closing of this joke.
These were never sick days, it was a cash grab, plain and simple

 

[buckwheat1]

get over it, it's now summertime and there not paid for two months

 

[Yoga Face]

1. I showed you
2. If your solution is not based on numerical work, it is not of any use
Do not lose sight of the problem, it is a cost problem


Why not, you are oblivious to the reality and appear far too self assured


Good luck


They tell the story
Speaking of lies your agenda is quite different than you portray
You would drive costs up by creating an unmanageable administrative nightmare


They are actual and budget numbers so it is the cash the gov't has and proposes spending on education


So what?
Since it is govt budget it probably does include funds for construction of new schools. Those are need regardless of the operating costs
Will your voucher system require new buildings?


You have a value $12K
Will your hair brained idea work or will it not?
I say not


you want to fund this nightmare by selling the assets?
You can only do that once. If the operating costs can not stand on their own, it is doomed to failure





Then how in the world can you say you have a solution?
You just want to change things for special interest groups and you really do not know or care if the costs will go up



I agree, however private enterprise will not guarantee every child gets a quality education and that is unacceptable
It will be pay for play.

Why go there ?
Simply forcing teachers to take a 15% cut in salary and benefit solves the issue




So you would pay more than $83K per
That appears to be the teacher's line in the sand for being treated right




You want to ensure gay students can be them selves and chose they type of school they want
What else can that mean?




That is not at all practical for every child in Ont
If you provide gay students with an schooling environment of their choice, then a muslin student will want their own environment, as will Hindu students, mandarin , Cantonese ... etc
This will be a mess

It is also now where near as important the right of every child to have access to education



Ha Ha
That's too much
Better dead than red



No they should have the freedom to create wealth and not have it stolen by left-wing pinkos like yourself, who are too stupid to understand what drives our economy




Nice story
It relied on a free ride for rent, the books and who ever was kind enough to devote their time to help these people

Unfortunately , you have to scale this up for 2 + MM kids and you are not going to get that free ride on that scale
Apparently that costs $24 B
You are a dreamer and a fool



So in the end you have nothing tangible to offer, other than complaints
Your complaints are not even focussed
You blame the rich, the govt and the education system, yet you are oblivious to the costs

But you still insist you know better



You were short changed on yours

u continue to be missing my original point entirely (how many times do u have to be told what my argument is ?????)

economics is not my argument - it is a human rights issue

argue that vouchers will not give students a better education to those who desire it then u r addressing the issue


ultimately economics is, of course, an essential consideration

but

u are the arrogant one in assuming vouchers will result in more taxes with sweeping statements based on extremely generalized numbers

u r using pedestrian and assumptive economic arguments

and so would i be forced to use pedestrian and assumptive economic arguments if i argued vouchers would save taxes


the economics need to be studied by professionals ( how many times have i said that ??)


but i do not believe money is the issue, freedom is

i thought u of all people would believe in freedom

the least the government can do is give back to the student the monies it saves if the student leaves

but

for 12K there are cheaper alternatives in the private arena as my YMCA example is one example of how money is not the issue in some cases, freedom is

(of course not all gays can be taught for free at the YMCA )



BTW That investments drive the economy is an extremely simple concept to understand

i do not offer a solution to the rich getting richer because they are rich problem i simply point it out

 

[JohnLarue]

u continue to be missing my original point entirely (how many

times do u have to be told what my argument is ?????)

economics is not my argument - it is a human rights issue

argue that vouchers will not give students a better education to those who desire it then u r addressing the issue


ultimately economics is, of course, an essential consideration

Let me set you straight
This is an economic problem and not a human rights problem

the least the government can do is give back to the student the monies it saves if the student leaves

It was never the students money to begin with. It originated at the taxpayer

for 12K there are cheaper alternatives in the private arena as my YMCA example is one example of how money is not the issue in some cases, freedom is

(of course not all gays can be taught for free at the YMCA )

Your example is akin to sending 100 buckets to Calgary to help with their flooding problem

BTW That investments drive the economy is an extremely simple concept to understand

i do not offer a solution to the rich getting richer because they are rich problem i simply point it out

The rich are the one making the investments you moron

Please explain the following and the impact of taxation:
ke=rf+B(rm-rf) and

WACC = E/V *ke + D/V* kd*(1-Tc)

Until you can do that you have no right to even consider taxing the rich, because you do not understand how investment decisions are made

 

[JohnLarue]

get over it, it's now summertime and there not paid for two months

They get paid for a full year @ 83K
What they do not get is anything accomplished in return for that pay

Where do you get such consistently incorrect information

 

[FAST]

The big thaw

Another teachers union, UPPER GRAND DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD ELEMENTARY, announced a 2% increase in their new contract,... a union official stated, "its something we can live with",... I’m so happy for him.

With this latest announcement,...I'm starting to believe a little more in the "global warming" phenomena.

FAST

 

[basketcase]

Toronto District School Board sick days up 22% as teachers no longer allowed to ‘bank’ time....

I read in one of the recent articles that private sector averages 8.9 sick days per year while public sector averages 13.9.

Considering teachers now are limited to 10 sick days, what are the odds that they now average right around what the private sector does?

 

[FAST]

Two different friut

I read in one of the recent articles that private sector averages 8.9 sick days per year while public sector averages 13.9.

Considering teachers now are limited to 10 sick days, what are the odds that they now average right around what the private sector does?

Define year !!!

FAST