Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?
- Thread starter TeasePlease
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There, fixed your post for you.Well you are wrong once again
I may not be everyone's cup of tea, however I am honestly brutal
God you're so ideological it's probably pathological.
What's your agenda? It's obvious that you have one. Oh I forgot, political victory at any cost, even at the cost of civil society.
we need to know the real cost per student in the public school systemPlease explain
Will vouchers impact the cost per teacher, if so how?
Will vouchers impact the cost per student , if so how?
this would include the cost of capitalization, lost tax revenue as schools sit on prime real estate, administrative costs etc
Defiantly out of the norm for current administrative types (teachers and others ) in the current education system
I knew this would fall apart
You want "students actually do work like maintenance cutting costs down" ???
Sure
"Lets send little 7 year old Suzy down to the boiler room to adjust the heating system"
Or "Hey, Jimmy, replace the 6 ' plate glass window in the front lobby after you complete your math test will ya? we need it done today as the forecast calls for snow tonight."
Or "Our maintenance requirements for the year include re-tarring the gym roof and installing new shelving in the library, did you want the grade 8s to do the roof and the grade six class to be assigned the shelving job?"
Dumbest idea yet
it is a possibility for some older students in select situations and is already being done at some alternative schools (I know of three solid examples) so u r wrong
they grow as they accept real responsibilities and get a cheaper education
I do not suggest little johnny fix the roof nor breaking child labour laws
competition always seems to drive the price down while improving quality so why not in education?You have provided nothing which address the cost problem and vouchers appear to add another layer of administration
"Welcome to XYZ PS little Jenny, I hope you like grade 1, do you have your voucher ?
No ?
Piss off then"
I really do not think you understand the size, scope or complexities you are dealing with here
I am not convinced
Show me how vouchers would save money?
You have not done that at all
Of the $24.1 B in education costs, approx. 1/2 are for salaries & benefits
That is where the solution sits
serious debate needs to be done but my original concern was , and still is, giving people freedom to educate themselves as they see fit
(saving money is of secondary concern although the financial costs to society must be considered)
to have such freedom u must have access to monies
monies that were taken in taxes
right now only the rich has such freedom
People who say that there is no competition in the public system clearly have no idea as to what is really going on right now in Ontario
1) The public competes with the catholic and private schools in a region of dropping enrolments
2) Within schools, teachers, especially those who teach electives compete with each other to ensure that their classes run. Not enough students enrolling for elective classes mean that they do not run.
1) The public competes with the catholic and private schools in a region of dropping enrolments
2) Within schools, teachers, especially those who teach electives compete with each other to ensure that their classes run. Not enough students enrolling for elective classes mean that they do not run.
Typical John, claiming this is salary related despite having no evidence to back it up.http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2013/ch2g.html#ch2_t2-24
2011A $21.9 B
2012A $22.9 B
2013E $23.5 B
2014E $24.1 B
mmmm! Some are calling this a pay cut for teachers ??
Bullshit
...
My agenda is to see that Ont does not become a financial train wreak. (believe me it is well on its way)There, fixed your post for you.
God you're so ideological it's probably pathological.
What's your agenda? It's obvious that you have one. Oh I forgot, political victory at any cost, even at the cost of civil society.
Is that such a crime?
More than happy to hear your explanationTypical John, claiming this is salary related despite having no evidence to back it up.
Before you go solving problems you may want to take a few management accounting courseswe need to know the real cost per student in the public school system
this would include the cost of capitalization, lost tax revenue as schools sit on prime real estate, administrative costs etc
Once completed you would realize the true cost per student can only approximated.
Best guess $24.1 B divided by enrollment = TOO HIGH!!!!!
A pipe dream .it is a possibility for some older students in select situations and is already being done at some alternative schools (I know of three solid examples) so u r wrong
they grow as they accept real responsibilities and get a cheaper education
If you are attempting to pick and choose "select situations" you might save $10-$20 MM, however have an incremental administration cost of $100 MM.
What links student maintenance with vouchers
You are not answering the original question, how does vouchers save any $
I know, however I needed to point how absurd you idea wasI do not suggest little johnny fix the roof nor breaking child labor laws
Now your taking, too bad the unions will not let teachers bid for the workcompetition always seems to drive the price down while improving quality so why not in education?
So the truth comes out, there is no savings in vouchers.serious debate needs to be done but my original concern was , and still is, giving people freedom to educate themselves as they see fit
(saving money is of secondary concern although the financial costs to society must be considered)
to have such freedom u must have access to monies
monies that were taken in taxes
right now only the rich has such freedom
This is just another tax grab and targeted at the rich.
Your plan would drive up the costs and reduce the quality of education
If you want to be taken seriously, think your ideas through and do not mix two separate agenda together
Most importantly, do not think you can sell this mess / joke as a potential cost saver
I could come up with many but you are the one who claimed it was salary. Give us some evidence.More than happy to hear your explanation
DUDE! They make $83K per year!!I could come up with many but you are the one who claimed it was salary. Give us some evidence.
That multiplied by X (JL inserts number here) = HUGE DEFICIT!!
Get it through your head. (Is this where I call the poster a fool?)
SMH
You know what they say Johnnyboy... a righteous man avoids all extremes. It's a crime that you come and spout your obviously politically agenda'd claptrap like a broken record. I think I'd rather listen to a living breathing human being than a robot.My agenda is to see that Ont does not become a financial train wreak. (believe me it is well on its way)
Is that such a crime?
Before you go solving problems you may want to take a few management accounting courses
Once completed you would realize the true cost per student can only approximated.
agreed
and u can only estimate what is saved if a student leaves
but we have to use some numbers and we are stuck with what we got
how can u expect me to know the numbers when no one else does ?
studies need to be done
A pipe dream .
If you are attempting to pick and choose "select situations" you might save $10-$20 MM, however have an incremental administration cost of $100 MM.
What links student maintenance with vouchers
You are not answering the original question, how does vouchers save any $
look, this is just one small example of how some students could, and actually do, reduce education costs in some cases and is not meant to be a panacea
it is an example of creative thinking that comes when free of bureaucratic control
they cannot force unions into the the private sectorNow your taking, too bad the unions will not let teachers bid for the work
they have to be voted in
it is intended to give children and their parents freedomSo the truth comes out, there is no savings in vouchers.
This is just another tax grab and targeted at the rich.
Your plan would drive up the costs and reduce the quality of education
If you want to be taken seriously, think your ideas through and do not mix two separate agenda together
Most importantly, do not think you can sell this mess / joke as a potential cost saver
in some cases freedom from abuse from other children and freedom to be themselves as in gays and the freedom to educate themselves as they see fit
u r the one who has turned my voucher idea into a way to save monies, that was not my original reason although it very well may save monies
studies need to be done
these studies need to be forced as the status quo has no self interest in such studies or they would have done them
Yoga, My position is basically yours writ large. Just have the government give each of us back our share of the social spending (education spending is part of it) and be done with it. This way nobody needs to worry about communist, parasites, or hypocrites.
This voucher approach is not without problem. If I choose to keep the voucher money and home school, one of us would have to do the work, and the job will be overwhelming. I would much rather move to a well-to-do area and send the children to a school where they are surrounded by children of high SES parents and highly trained teachers, and intervene only when necessary. (I did just that, btw, and when I found out their calculus teachers have honours degree in math from Waterloo and Queen’s, I knew I did the right thing). Yes, I agree in having more freedom of choice in principle, but whether that can be translated into practice is another matter.
Even more so, in the mind of some people, public education is the way we socialize (some calls it brainwashing) our children into the Canadian society. It is the mortar that holds the house together. If each of us retread into our own little enclave, Canada would be no more than a series of ghettoes. In times of national need, what will there be to keep us together?
I find it interesting that no one right-of-centre has given me a good justification why I should be responsible for other people’s social spending. There must be a lot of closet socialists or hypocrites among them. At least the people left-of-centre are honest about it.
This voucher approach is not without problem. If I choose to keep the voucher money and home school, one of us would have to do the work, and the job will be overwhelming. I would much rather move to a well-to-do area and send the children to a school where they are surrounded by children of high SES parents and highly trained teachers, and intervene only when necessary. (I did just that, btw, and when I found out their calculus teachers have honours degree in math from Waterloo and Queen’s, I knew I did the right thing). Yes, I agree in having more freedom of choice in principle, but whether that can be translated into practice is another matter.
Even more so, in the mind of some people, public education is the way we socialize (some calls it brainwashing) our children into the Canadian society. It is the mortar that holds the house together. If each of us retread into our own little enclave, Canada would be no more than a series of ghettoes. In times of national need, what will there be to keep us together?
I find it interesting that no one right-of-centre has given me a good justification why I should be responsible for other people’s social spending. There must be a lot of closet socialists or hypocrites among them. At least the people left-of-centre are honest about it.
u seem to be a libertarianYoga, My position is basically yours writ large. Just have the government give each of us back our share of the social spending (education spending is part of it) and be done with it. This way nobody needs to worry about communist, parasites, or hypocrites.
.
I am not as capitalism needs controls (as much as I dislike the government it is needed)
This voucher approach is not without problem. If I choose to keep the voucher money and home school, one of us would have to do the work,
.
no
with vouchers u can hire teachers
esp if u include select fellow home schoolers
if u do not use all the vouchers then put them in an interest bearing account for later
so u would take freedom away from people based on a theoretical argument which in turn is based on a theoretical belief that vouchers mean segregation ?Even more so, in the mind of some people, public education is the way we socialize (some calls it brainwashing) our children into the Canadian society. It is the mortar that holds the house together. If each of us retread into our own little enclave, Canada would be no more than a series of ghettoes. In times of national need, what will there be to keep us together?
.
most private schools are inclusive so that fear seems moot
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including benefits the average salary is much higher than thatDUDE! They make $83K per year!!
That multiplied by X (JL inserts number here) = HUGE DEFICIT!!
Get it through your head. (Is this where I call the poster a fool?)
SMH
benefits can double a wage
the auto workers made $35 per hour
with benefits it was estimated to be $80 per hour
the giveback after the financial collapse was in some benefits
Some excellent points, very concise and to-the-point. It does seem that you answered your own question vis-a-vis social spending justification (i.e. the one-nation concept and the education of all is vital to society). I disagree that those are the left are more honest about things...idealogues are by their very nature, for wont of a better term, dishonest about things in order to support their agenda (left or right). They all skew things to their side, be it facts or interpretations. Generally I distrust the right and am fearful of the left (principally because the left has taken the holier than thou mantle, albeit atheistically, and the left has a vise-grip hold of the media).Yoga, My position is basically yours writ large. Just have the government give each of us back our share of the social spending (education spending is part of it) and be done with it. This way nobody needs to worry about communist, parasites, or hypocrites.
This voucher approach is not without problem. If I choose to keep the voucher money and home school, one of us would have to do the work, and the job will be overwhelming. I would much rather move to a well-to-do area and send the children to a school where they are surrounded by children of high SES parents and highly trained teachers, and intervene only when necessary. (I did just that, btw, and when I found out their calculus teachers have honours degree in math from Waterloo and Queen’s, I knew I did the right thing). Yes, I agree in having more freedom of choice in principle, but whether that can be translated into practice is another matter.
Even more so, in the mind of some people, public education is the way we socialize (some calls it brainwashing) our children into the Canadian society. It is the mortar that holds the house together. If each of us retread into our own little enclave, Canada would be no more than a series of ghettoes. In times of national need, what will there be to keep us together?
I find it interesting that no one right-of-centre has given me a good justification why I should be responsible for other people’s social spending. There must be a lot of closet socialists or hypocrites among them. At least the people left-of-centre are honest about it.
one is wise to realize one has only enough knowledge to be dangerousSome excellent points, very concise and to-the-point. It does seem that you answered your own question vis-a-vis social spending justification (i.e. the one-nation concept and the education of all is vital to society). I disagree that those are the left are more honest about things...idealogues are by their very nature, for wont of a better term, dishonest about things in order to support their agenda (left or right). They all skew things to their side, be it facts or interpretations. Generally I distrust the right and am fearful of the left (principally because the left has taken the holier than thou mantle, albeit atheistically, and the left has a vise-grip hold of the media).
also that it is impossible to be objective so ones opinion is always coloured in gray (including this one)
decision making needs to be a hard, long thought out process
a process that will only reduce mistakes not eliminate them
the globe and mail said the new deal will cost the province an extra $112 M per year, so it was not a salary freezeI could come up with many but you are the one who claimed it was salary. Give us some evidence.
Then you see the total education budget increasing by $ 600 MM YoY
So, do you need a road map?
Easy for you to be complacent, you are on the gravy train side of this nightmareDUDE! They make $83K per year!!
That multiplied by X (JL inserts number here) = HUGE DEFICIT!!
Get it through your head. (Is this where I call the poster a fool?)
SMH
Add something of value please.... oh sorry are you on summer break now?
There is no savings if an incremental student leavesagreed
and u can only estimate what is saved if a student leaves
You still have to pay for infrastructure, teachers and admin salaries if enrollment in a class is 25 or 26 students
Again you show you are oblivious to the reality of the situation
How old are you?
Are still in high school?
You came up with an answer and claim it will save money, but now you claim it s not fair of me to expect you to know the numbers????but we have to use some numbers and we are stuck with what we got
how can u expect me to know the numbers when no one else does ?
Your credibility suffers with ever post, consider doing some homework before declaring a solution
At an incremental cost to the taxpayer? No thanksstudies need to be done
Back of the envelope calculation
Total 2013 budget = $23.5 B >> $24 B
Guessimate 2 MM students enrolled across the province. (A genius like you should be able to search for 2013 enrollment levels in Ont)
Cost is approx. $12,000 per kid / year
Yu will have to do better than that example to convince anyonelook, this is just one small example of how some students could, and actually do, reduce education costs in some cases and is not meant to be a panacea
it is an example of creative thinking that comes when free of bureaucratic control
Again common sense should tell you that the majority of the budget is salaries & benefits, and that is where one must look for savings
No doubt there is some hugely inefficient administration spending and any efforts to reduce tat will help
However it should be crystal clear these teachers are extremely expensive and where their priorities are
How long do you think that would take one year, two maybe?they cannot force unions into the private sector
they have to be voted in
Get real
A nice utopian idea, however not at all practicalit is intended to give children and their parents freedom
in some cases freedom from abuse from other children and freedom to be themselves as in gays and the freedom to educate themselves as they see fit
u r the one who has turned my voucher idea into a way to save monies, that was not my original reason although it very well may save monies
studies need to be done
these studies need to be forced as the status quo has no self interest in such studies or they would have done them
And it would add a whole additional layer of costly administration
I also suspect the quality of education would be disrupted and I suspect some kids would be denied. All kids deserve a quality education, regardless of their parents income
Forced studies ?
Fix the cost problem before you go set up a separate School board so gay kids can be themselves
Get your priorities right and do some homework before proclaiming a solution
Vouchers, a ridiculous idea
