Teachers to Boycott After School Programs
- Thread starter GameBoy27
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User fees would prevent some kids from lower income families from achieving their full potentialMaybe the solution is that people start paying for their kids to go to school. Use the tax base to fund the cost of the infrastructure, etc. but start charging user fees to people with kids in school.
trtinajax is also correct that there needs to be a complete restructuring of the whole way that the bureaucracy is set up. Enough it is enough. Merge all the boards into a single board working under the the Ministry of Education. Lay off all the duplication.
No child should ever be limited because of the way the education system is structured.
I have no problem with a review and restructuring of the bureaucracy of the system and hope this happens, regardless of the teachers contract outcome.
However the majority of the education expense is teachers salaries and benefits.
Without some relief in this area the provinces financial situation will continue to deteriorate
It is that simple
User fees would need to be tailored to those who made over a certain salary, or a graduated scale.
Parents are simply going to have to start paying for their kid's education (on top of what they already pay)
The same is going to happen in the medical system as well. There simply are not enough tax dollars anymore because our economy has been decimated in Ontario.
Parents are simply going to have to start paying for their kid's education (on top of what they already pay)
The same is going to happen in the medical system as well. There simply are not enough tax dollars anymore because our economy has been decimated in Ontario.
Hey you're talking to a brick wall this is the same guy who was offended that I called him fucking stupid after countless number of posts where he lambasts all teachers as being the same.You don't need to be derogatory - calling him "Einstein" is not called for. (Though I know given your past history on this forum it fits. But newsflash - it's not cool.)
This is actully one of the weirdest lines of thinking that I have ever seen mind you I don't go to stormfront type forums..... but here's a guy who in his mind feels that all union members are the same.
He's a bully. He can dish it but can't take it.
Totally agree that each board is paying for a catholic system. Don't understand why non catholics and catholics parents who send thier kids to public school aren't up in arms about that.Maybe the solution is that people start paying for their kids to go to school. Use the tax base to fund the cost of the infrastructure, etc. but start charging user fees to people with kids in school.
trtinajax is also correct that there needs to be a complete restructuring of the whole way that the bureaucracy is set up. Enough it is enough. Merge all the boards into a single board working under the the Ministry of Education. Lay off all the duplication.
JTK,
Maybe the fee should be based on income. The more you make the more you pay. That way lower income families have fair access to education. Kind of a pay what you can system.
If you kid is not special ed or esl why are you paying for it?
It's really a matter of time before education and health care goes away from the current system.
I agree the self made/self educated person is a rare breed. Just because some people can teach themselves doesn't mean all can. I think people have the problem of assuming that their experience is the universal truth. Same goes for the stories of your friends.Although it is really temping to burn you here, you did leave yourself open, I won't.
I was reading before I went to school. Dry humped the World Book Encyclopedia as a youngster, molested my unveristy library card as a high school student. Remember little from university except for the stuff I was motivated to learn on my own.
That seems to be the way it works. Granted I am an odd little duck. However survey after survey show a shocking ignorance of the most basic knowledge of history, science and geography, so it isn't as if the schools are doing a wonderful job. I know I still can't spell worth a damn and if the grammar Nazis ever take over the world, no amount of work will make me free. <--- see what I did there. If not, you should bone up on your history. Geography, History, Science, later on Economics, I was on that shit like a fly on some very seductive manure, just get out of my way.
That being said, being self educated, especially on the internet can lead to much dumbassery.
A person who didn't get much out of school MIGHT be more likfely to hang around people with similar views. So that skews perception of school.
For every self made person you probably have an ignoramus as well. I was on the TTC recently and there were kids (teens) in the "big city" probably for the first time. They saw a hasidic (spelling) jew and thought he was Amish.
Some how I"m the "Einstein" while you are the one assuming that lower salaries will weed out people who teach for just the money. And I used the example of minimum wage.... people will work for $10/h and it has nothing to do with love of their profession.Well Einstein
If the compensation was reduced to a level the province could afford (who said anything about minimum wage?) and you still have people willing to teach, then we can safely say that money is not their primary consideration in a career choice
Again this is the type of people we want teaching
The ones motivated by an excessive compensation should look to a healthy sector of the private sector and be willing to work their ass off
This is very basic logic
Is common sense not part of the teachers college curriculum?
Guess that makes you "Newton"
JL is the same guy who will set up unfair comparisons to "try" and prove his point.
He says that less than 1/1000 teachers could find work that pays 90K in 9.5 months..... well each school has at least a few tech teachers and music teachers who could probably do quite well.
He also says well "try and apply for a 90K job" and see if you can get it. How about writing curriculum for the ministry of eduction. How about principal.... well VP to start (in fact those pay even better). IF you want teachers to apply outside of their field then it's unfair to expect anyone of any career to apply outside of their field and get the same compensation unless they are consulting or still using those skills.
A mechanic couldn't be paid as well outside his or her field just like a doctor would not either.
Furthermore, you can't expect someone to leave a senior position and apply to another field and get a senior position. Which is why to be fair you have to compare can a teacher make the same as their starting salary in an unrelated field..... answer is yes. Or after ten years in a different field can a teacher make the same as what they did as a maxed out 10 year teacher.... answer is maybe..... but certainly more than the 1/1000 claim.
A quick search of average salariese compared to education can show that. Obviously some degrees are more valuable then others. But you have enough business, science, math majors to beat the 1/1000 rate as it's unlikelky that 999/1000 teachers majored in philosophy or fine arts (sorry to people in those fields)
He says that less than 1/1000 teachers could find work that pays 90K in 9.5 months..... well each school has at least a few tech teachers and music teachers who could probably do quite well.
He also says well "try and apply for a 90K job" and see if you can get it. How about writing curriculum for the ministry of eduction. How about principal.... well VP to start (in fact those pay even better). IF you want teachers to apply outside of their field then it's unfair to expect anyone of any career to apply outside of their field and get the same compensation unless they are consulting or still using those skills.
A mechanic couldn't be paid as well outside his or her field just like a doctor would not either.
Furthermore, you can't expect someone to leave a senior position and apply to another field and get a senior position. Which is why to be fair you have to compare can a teacher make the same as their starting salary in an unrelated field..... answer is yes. Or after ten years in a different field can a teacher make the same as what they did as a maxed out 10 year teacher.... answer is maybe..... but certainly more than the 1/1000 claim.
A quick search of average salariese compared to education can show that. Obviously some degrees are more valuable then others. But you have enough business, science, math majors to beat the 1/1000 rate as it's unlikelky that 999/1000 teachers majored in philosophy or fine arts (sorry to people in those fields)
JL,
Can you name one job where lowering the salary has resulted in a more passionate workforce?
Can you name one job where lowering the salary has resulted in a more passionate workforce?
I do not give a rats ass if teachers are more passionate?JL,
Can you name one job where lowering the salary has resulted in a more passionate workforce?
If they are unwilling to teach because their comp was lowered to an affordable level, GET RID of THEM.
The sooner the better.
Can you name one state, province or country that has sustained esculating Health and education costs ?
Well just a few posts ago you talked about lowering salaries to get more people who want to do the job for the love of the job. But I see what you are doing. Once faced with a question based on your claims you can't answer you dismiss it.I do not give a rats ass if teachers are more passionate?
If they are unwilling to teach because their comp was lowered to an affordable level, GET RID of THEM.
The sooner the better.
I don't need to name a state province etc since I have stated that some cost controls need to be in place. Just because my controls are not to your liking or not good enough in your mind doesn't mean they are not valid.
That's the problem with discussions with you. You're not here to discuss just bang on your drum and shout your tired old views.
Whether teachers like it or not. Want a raise or not. Want their benefits or not.
They have to put up a stink. Otherwise, they can expect another cut and another cut to follow.
That's the real world is someone pushes you if you don't push back you can expect it to happen again.
They have to put up a stink. Otherwise, they can expect another cut and another cut to follow.
That's the real world is someone pushes you if you don't push back you can expect it to happen again.
Yes which is exactly what the province is doingWhether teachers like it or not. Want a raise or not. Want their benefits or not.
They have to put up a stink. Otherwise, they can expect another cut and another cut to follow.
That's the real world is someone pushes you if you don't push back you can expect it to happen again.
Unless teachers are stopped now they will continue to bleed the provinces coffers.
At some point the taxpayer will enough is enough.
That time has passed
NoWell just a few posts ago you talked about lowering salaries to get more people who want to do the job for the love of the job. But I see what you are doing. Once faced with a question based on your claims you can't answer you dismiss it.
A few posts ago I indicate that the supply of people willing to teach is so high that we could lower compensation and still have people more than willing to teach for an affordable compensation package & deliver a quality education
That is quite different from what you implied I said.
One face with some hard facts you prefer to muddy the waters and mis quote me.
You are avoiding the hard questionI don't need to name a state province etc since I have stated that some cost controls need to be in place. Just because my controls are not to your liking or not good enough in your mind doesn't mean they are not valid.
That's the problem with discussions with you. You're not here to discuss just bang on your drum and shout your tired old views.
I do not recall any cost controls you mentioned, however we assume you did so
(The only suggest I recall was raising the sales tax- non -starter)
Again, I will repeat this:
Any cost controls and opportunities to save $ should be examined and implemented
However unless there is movement on Salaries and benefits the problem will not be properly addressed and will continue to be a growing problem
This is very simple and basic, yet you prefer to ignore this fact
That sure hasn't seemed to be effective in American schools.I do not give a rats ass if teachers are more passionate?
If they are unwilling to teach because their comp was lowered to an affordable level, GET RID of THEM.
The sooner the better.
...
A music teacher could pull down 90K ???JL is the same guy who will set up unfair comparisons to "try" and prove his point.
He says that less than 1/1000 teachers could find work that pays 90K in 9.5 months..... well each school has at least a few tech teachers and music teachers who could probably do quite well.
Ok Frank you are now leaving reality and veering off into some other place, lets call it Teacherdom (teacherdumb)
Assume that said music teacher could teach lessons from his / her home
To make 90K, she would have to charge $45 / hr and work 40 hours per week for 50 weeks a year
1. It would take 5-10 years to build up 2000 hours of sales in a year and only if she is a marketer extra ordinarier
2. No way in hell she could sell all those hours for $45
3. No way in hell a teacher could do this as they require "Prep time"
I suspect this piano teacher would be very hard pressed to eck out a living, let alone replace her salary
If by some miracle she could drive 90k in salary, she will still be short another 2o-30K in benefits
Tech guys could get contracts , some of them for $100 / hr + if and only if they have the needed skills to overlook the lack of real world experience. Most of those contracts are 6-9 months in duration and they will dry up when It spending gets tight. So what is job security worth to you?
The question is not how do salaries elsewhere compareHe also says well "try and apply for a 90K job" and see if you can get it. How about writing curriculum for the ministry of eduction. How about principal.... well VP to start (in fact those pay even better). IF you want teachers to apply outside of their field then it's unfair to expect anyone of any career to apply outside of their field and get the same compensation unless they are consulting or still using those skills.
The question is (and please pay attention as you do not appear to understand this)
"Could a teacher apply and successfully land a private sector position paying 90K?"
The answer to that questions is 1/1000
The second question is
"Could a teacher apply and successfully land a private sector position paying 90K and only work 9 1/2 months a year?"
The answer to that questions is no
Comparing salaries across different occupations is irrelevant and misleading
In the real world when you apply if you do not get an interview, there is no opportunity to say "no fair, you are not comparing me consistently with these tables I referenced"
Let me clarify further for you
I could care less if you apply
However I think you should so that you understand and appreciate how good you currently have it
Since your bullshit comparisons are useless and irrelevant, landing a offer is the only way you can prove me wrong
Yeah but as someone else pointed out they must be lazy to not teach themselves..... Detroit must be lazy as hell as within this decade it reported a literacy rate a little over 50%.That sure hasn't seemed to be effective in American schools.
OK lets just give them whatever they demandThat sure hasn't seemed to be effective in American schools.
Since attempting to negotiate something that is affordable just has not worked in the USA
What a ridiculous statement
I can tell you that there are piano teachers that charge 25 to 50 for a half hour lesson.... you can find cheaper as well. But if you want Royal conservatory testing and what not that's what you will likely pay in the GTA for 30 min.A music teacher could pull down 90K ???
Ok Frank you are now leaving reality and veering off into some other place, lets call it Teacherdom (teacherdumb)
Assume that said music teacher could teach lessons from his / her home
To make 90K, she would have to charge $45 / hr and work 40 hours per week for 50 weeks a year
1. It would take 5-10 years to build up 2000 hours of sales in a year and only if she is a marketer extra ordinarier
2. No way in hell she could sell all those hours for $45
3. No way in hell a teacher could do this as they require "Prep time"
I suspect this piano teacher would be very hard pressed to eck out a living, let alone replace her salary
If by some miracle she could drive 90k in salary, she will still be short another 2o-30K in benefits
Tech guys could get contracts , some of them for $100 / hr + if and only if they have the needed skills to overlook the lack of real world experience. Most of those contracts are 6-9 months in duration and they will dry up when It spending gets tight. So what is job security worth to you?
The question is not how do salaries elsewhere compare
The question is (and please pay attention as you do not appear to understand this)
"Could a teacher apply and successfully land a private sector position paying 90K?"
The answer to that questions is 1/1000
The second question is
"Could a teacher apply and successfully land a private sector position paying 90K and only work 9 1/2 months a year?"
The answer to that questions is no
Comparing salaries across different occupations is irrelevant and misleading
In the real world when you apply if you do not get an interview, there is no opportunity to say "no fair, you are not comparing me consistently with these tables I referenced"
Let me clarify further for you
I could care less if you apply
However I think you should so that you understand and appreciate how good you currently have it
Since your bullshit comparisons are useless and irrelevant, landing a offer is the only way you can prove me wrong
Tech guys could charge 60 to 65 as a handy man.... again i am quoting prices found online.... in fact I hired a guy for that.
Of course there's the issue of job security and that's why some choose teaching instead.
Great pay freeze and keep the benefits that have been there for over 2 decades.OK lets just give them whatever they demand
Since attempting to negotiate something that is affordable just has not worked in the USA
What a ridiculous statement
