transit
- Thread starter doggee_01
- Start date
Is there a hidden message in your statement explaining what you mean, or could you provide a link.
Ford promised corporate money to pay for some of the subways but none were willing, not even his friends at Sun Media. His subway plan was never going to happen, there was never going to be enough money to pay for it. It was just a white elephant claiming to be able to deliver a white elephant.
I believe her plan involved a mix between underground and above ground. In doing so they anticipate being able to add more service for the same price. As usual though, only time will tell.
Will this really be another St Clair W senario, drawn out construction, clogged roads due to reduced lanes...and oh man when peak times hit it's usually already backed up for a few miles.
I have been taking transit (TTC) every day for alomost a year now. Hadn't done this on a regular basis since my school days many moons back. Lets just say I am not a fan. If the council or TTC board were forced to take transit every day to work and back in rush hour, they would quickly spend billions on improving the system and service, but they don't have to take it in rush hour so they pay lips service to it but, really don't care as it doesn't bother them or their families. Three of my beefs (there are others) are:
1. Smelly transit vehicles (not the people, but that is another story). Is it too much to ask that they get cleaned every night and I mean disinfected and use some soap as well.
2. Every second person seems to be a Scherpa. Lugging a huge knapsack that blocks the aisle or door and they won't move so people can get by. Do they really need all that stuff ?
3. Crowded tarnsit vehicles. I meam we used to be one of the best efficient comfortable systems when I moved here many, many moons ago. Now it is ridiculous in rush hour. We can do better.
1. Smelly transit vehicles (not the people, but that is another story). Is it too much to ask that they get cleaned every night and I mean disinfected and use some soap as well.
2. Every second person seems to be a Scherpa. Lugging a huge knapsack that blocks the aisle or door and they won't move so people can get by. Do they really need all that stuff ?
3. Crowded tarnsit vehicles. I meam we used to be one of the best efficient comfortable systems when I moved here many, many moons ago. Now it is ridiculous in rush hour. We can do better.
Oh come now-- They're just getting back to what was the core of Transit City, while preserving the option of closing the subway loop on Sheppard. Actually, the potential compromise might be better as we may get:
-Most of the LRT from Transit City (in the places that actually need it, like on Finch)
-More of Ellington that is buried, but not out to the burbs
-A Sheppard line that runs from Downsview and closes the loop on the other end (Possible.)
As it stands at this second, if they don't go with the above they default back to the funded portion of Transit City (More LRT than above)... Which would serve far more people that Ford's 'I couldn't find the gravy so I'm making an underground gravy train' plan. The absolute worst case scenario is that Ford throws such a fit that the Liberals use it as an excuse to pull funding in the name of the Provincial deficit. That scenario isn't terribly likely given the number of Provincial and Federal Liberal seats in the area, and the fact that our Premier probably wouldn't mid giving a big 'Fuck you!' to Ford over his use of Ford Nation and Transit as a wedge and hammer in the Provincial election... I'm sure this sits fine with Queen's park because it has a plan that serves more people coming out on top, and a lovely 'Fuck Ford' factor to boot...
Here, from the horrible Socialist rag (that's actually soft centre right) the Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...to-bring-transit-above-ground/article2330860/
If they really want to build a subway it should be a full on downtown relief line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Relief_Line) or to the airport, then I'd happily let go of Transit City, but Ford's plan servers fewer people for far more money... Nothing like trying to scrap a few million in school lunches then digging a $2 billion dollar hole through the burbs...
It would make more sense to connect the Sheppard line south, intersection the Danforth line, then down and along Queen to connect with the Yonge line at Queen. That would actually be a high traffic route, unlike connecting across to Scarborough Center. The subways at the extreme ends are just not that full, whereas they are jam packed downtown. Connecting at Queen rather than Union would make sense because Union Station itself is overcrowded and could use some relief. Queen is nice and central and there is already an abandoned lower platform built there in anticipation of a Queen line. That line could then progress along Queen and eventually connect up at Dundas West one day, relieving the University line.
The other thing that would make sense is adding a third track from Union up to Yonge/Bloor, to allow for express trains in one direction each rush hour, that fly all the way up to Yonge/Bloor from Union before proceeding normally up the rest of the line.
The other thing that would make sense is adding a third track from Union up to Yonge/Bloor, to allow for express trains in one direction each rush hour, that fly all the way up to Yonge/Bloor from Union before proceeding normally up the rest of the line.
Yeah, that would be ideal, and probably $15 billion dollars (that would actually pay off in the medium term) but it's not even really on the radar... That being said, even with more subway on Sheppard, reverting to something more Transit City like will still help a hell of a lot more people that the Ford 'plan'... The city could probably use 8 billion in LRT and 8 billion in subways just to get transit to 'internationally acceptable' levels.
+1. Excellent post, nothing to add. I can't believe my eyes and ears...a sound z and sober vote from council!! I think I'll take a celebratory SOG at my friendly neighbourhood MPA
The city has stood by for 30 years...for....THIS!
A colossal mistake.
I'm not so concerned that roads will be torn up worse than St. Clair just to get these tunnels for the LRT in place. Building anything will need 'construction' delays.
But the short term planning, with an inferior cheaper product, that will look all fancy for a few years....but once prone to breakdowns, will begin to fail for a number of reasons...not to mention our harsh weather....
We are a major city..needing major expenditure ...on top notch subways.
New York City has 600 miles of subways!!!!
To those who support this LRT cheaper product....I look forward to you standing on those exposed sidings as a bitter east wind cools you in January!
A colossal mistake.
I'm not so concerned that roads will be torn up worse than St. Clair just to get these tunnels for the LRT in place. Building anything will need 'construction' delays.
But the short term planning, with an inferior cheaper product, that will look all fancy for a few years....but once prone to breakdowns, will begin to fail for a number of reasons...not to mention our harsh weather....
We are a major city..needing major expenditure ...on top notch subways.
New York City has 600 miles of subways!!!!
To those who support this LRT cheaper product....I look forward to you standing on those exposed sidings as a bitter east wind cools you in January!
most of those who support LRTs will never ride them. I think its a shame for the future of the city. its unfortunate that politics has once again trumped the common good.
i guess i should say take solace in the fact that i don't have many years left in me, and that this will have no impact on me directly, but instead i am saddened by the short sightedness. the growth of this city is once again hindered, the future prosperity dimmed, the rider short changed and the poor left with a second rate system that literally leaves them out in the cold.
The important thing is not what a guy promises—surely by now, we all know that about pols—but what he delivers. This was Ford's last clear chance to actually start delivering what has been just bluster until now. That would mean getting Council votes.
He failed. The saddest part of his failure as our Chief Magistrate was his bathetic eleventh hour proposal to have yet another expert study, so he could delay doing anything for another three months. If we need more study why wasn't that panel put to work on Day 2 of his term? It's been over a year and he hasn't raised one dollar to get the coupla kilometres of subway he wants underway. He has been promising to squander an entire City's worth of rapid transit capital on burying a single streetcar line on Eglinton instead. Not to serve users better—it would take a subway to do that—but to keep it outta the way of cars.
Fortunately our system gives us two choices at election time, and he got only one. He had over a year to prove the virtues of his plan and gather the votes he needed to make it happen.
He failed.
Are you willing to pay for it? At the moment there is NO PLAN for subways. Ford has talked about them. He has not come up with any plan for them.
Any viable plan for subways is going to involve new revenue sources like road tolls on the DVP and Gardiner, taxes on parking, and perhaps a vehicle registration tax.
I question whether you are really sincere when you say you support these major expenditures, are you really willing to pay for them? The money has to come from somewhere!
Also, whatever is budgeted, these types of projects ALWAYS end up costing more than the estimates. so whatever 'temporary' measures would need to be introduced, such as road tolls, would continue forever. Other needed infrastructure projects would have to be ignored, and more city properties would need to be sold off.
Still better than being trapped in a subway tunnel with an enigmatic message about a temporary delay which never seems to end and winds up making you late for work. But my biggest pet peeve is when you pay the fare, go down to the tracks and THEN hear that there is a delay. You can't get your money back, you have no idea how long the delay will be, and if feels like you've been swindled.fmahovalich said:
This from the guy who favoured a monorail to Cherry Beach. Considering he hadn't raised dime-one to pay for a single centimetre of subway, Rob's plan to spend all the money to put streetcars in a hole where we've needed a subway since before Harris filled the last one in†, amounted to, "let them eat cake".
Which make the plain potatoes plan to put something at least a bit better where need is greatest a slam-dunk. It's proponent was far more thoughtful, reasoned and civic-minded that the Fords.
We will take great comfort from your sympathy from behind the glass of your road-clogging SUV, but now that we riders can go straight from transit vehicle to our destinations without the inconvenience of widely-separated underground stations, we'll likely not be waiting around long enough to see you, fm.
†Has it really been 30 years since Harris filled in our Eglinton subway? Nope, that was 1994. When the TTC, Toronto and Metro actually got a mid-town subway underway with help from Bob Rae's government. In spite of Mayor Mel, that project couldn't withstand the Tories' forward-thinking when Harris was elected. Thanks to amalgamation, that was the last time we got such an ambitious project going. But it wasn't your thirty years. What was?
I'm not taking sides....
Just lamenting that after 30 years..no one did anything.
ANYTHING"!
It's easy to say.."it's a start with the Stintz plan"
Yes it's a start......
After 30 years...it may be a start.... But it also starts in motion the END to Toronto ever being a world class city with world class transportation system!
The majority of the city wants it.
Sadly....24 people did not!
Just lamenting that after 30 years..no one did anything.
ANYTHING"!
It's easy to say.."it's a start with the Stintz plan"
Yes it's a start......
After 30 years...it may be a start.... But it also starts in motion the END to Toronto ever being a world class city with world class transportation system!
The majority of the city wants it.
Sadly....24 people did not!
Let's see, in the last 30 years:
1985 - Scarbourough RT opens
1987 - North York Center Station
1989 - 604 Harbourfront
1996 - Downsview Station
1997 - 510 Spadina
2002 - Sheppard Subway
2010 - 512 St. Clair
Maybe that's slow progress but I would not say that "no one did anything".
1985 - Scarbourough RT opens
1987 - North York Center Station
1989 - 604 Harbourfront
1996 - Downsview Station
1997 - 510 Spadina
2002 - Sheppard Subway
2010 - 512 St. Clair
Maybe that's slow progress but I would not say that "no one did anything".
The majority of the City have never ever expressed such an opinion. What they did was elect a Mayor, who made subways (unspecified), one of the planks in his platform, which also included, no tax raises, no service cuts and plenty of gravy to pay for everything, even though he'd abolish the Vehicle and Land Transfer Taxes. He was specific about killing Transit City. There is no way any reasonable person could separate out what specific people voted for in such a grab bag of promises. And whatever you imagine the Mayor's mandate to be, it's worth precisely the same as any of the other elected members of Council. Karen Stintz did what he didn't. She got the votes. There's a reason he didn't; he had no plan.
What happened yesterday was just one more non-delivery. So far he's made good—unnecessarily clumsily—on just one. Anyone whose birthday came after his election was spared the Vehicle tax the rest of us paid. The rest of his platform promises: Not delivered. Services were cut, taxes are going up, savings? None noticeable.
Of course people want subways. Just like they want swimming pools, luxury cars and Cash-For-Life wins. But the Council—unlike the Mayors Ford, it would seem—realized that the issue is what is the best for the most, that we can actually pay for.
Rob'n'Doug have yet to produce a plan to get work started on their addition to Sheppard, which is the only subway anyone's talking about. Now that we're no longer trying to bury a streetcar line under Eglinton, it's Council, not Rob who voted to put the first dollars towards Sheppard.
When you, or Rob'n'Doug are quoting a thoughtful survey that's statistically meaningful, about what transit options people want and will pay for, it'll be worth considering. But neither the Mayors nor you are telling us anything more useful than, 'people like sweets' or 'people want jobs', when you say 'the people prefer subways'.
At least the plan now puts some money towards that. All Rob offered was his fairytale gravy going into a hole in the ground where a subway should be.
