Best QB to ever play in the NFL Super Bowl era

frankcastle

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Statistics, statistics and damn statistics. Montana and Brady may have better statistics but they are absolutely not way better than the rest of them. Both obviously very successful. But watching all QBs of the modern era, the best of the lot is Payton Manning. The throws he makes are out of this world. Sometimes he throws accurately to a spot even before the receiver has made his cut. Brady and Montana, on the other hand, are the dink and doink types - slant passes. Most of the yardage credited to those two were made after the receiver had caught the ball.
Excellent point regarding Montana that as a 49er his bread and butter was the quick slant with YAC by Rice and company.

Mind you Peyton and Harrison do it too. One that doesn't show as a statistic is Peyton's attention to detail and all the adjustments he makes at the line. Not to mention the way him and harrison can communicate with each other with just a look is amazing.
 

frankcastle

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Their communication is even more amazing seeing as MH hasn't played for 3 years.
What you mean Manning didn't play this year?!!!!????? Thought he changed his name to Painter. :)

Please forgive the wrong tense.
 

rld

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I was talking about SB era QB's.
Johnny Unitas only won 1 SB the other 2 were NFL championships in 18 seasons threw for 40,239 YDS 290TD and 253INT

Bart Starr only won 2 SB the other 5 were NFL championships played 16 seasons threw for 24,718 YDS and 152TD and 138INT

Joe Namath only won 1 SB and his regular season numbers are just average played 13 years and threw for 27,663 YDS and 173TD and 220INT
Your obsession with statistics doesn't account for either season length or the changes in rules. When Starr and Unitas started playing they were playing 12 game seasons!!

Comparing quarterbacks from different eras on the same stats is really just a waste of time. Especially the way you do it.

But having seen a lot of film on Bart and Joe, I don't think they are contenders for the title. Unitas I think has to be considered one of the all time greats.
 

doggystyle99

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Your obsession with statistics doesn't account for either season length or the changes in rules. When Starr and Unitas started playing they were playing 12 game seasons!!

Comparing quarterbacks from different eras on the same stats is really just a waste of time. Especially the way you do it.

But having seen a lot of film on Bart and Joe, I don't think they are contenders for the title. Unitas I think has to be considered one of the all time greats.
Again for I am comparing regular season as well as post season stats also super bowl wins as well as playoff wins.

Joe namath only won 1 SB and his regular season numbers were just average.
Johnny Unitas could be compared as his regular season numbers were good at a time when QB's were mauled by defenders but he only won 1 SB.
Bart Starr did win 2 SB but his regular season numbers were just average.

I agree with the fact that they only played 12 games and QB's were mauled by defenders but they also played at a time where all teams in the NFL were not as competitive as they are today. In the 60's and 70's there were a few teams that were really dominating and the rest of the teams were below average making it easier for QB's to win games.
 

doggystyle99

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I would put Favre up with that group.
Favre only won 1 SB and he threw a lot of costly INT in clutch situations as well as regular season he has 336INT.
I believe he has the dubious record of any QB to play in the NFL with the most number of INT's thrown.
 

rld

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Again for I am comparing regular season as well as post season stats also super bowl wins as well as playoff wins.

Joe namath only won 1 SB and his regular season numbers were just average.
Johnny Unitas could be compared as his regular season numbers were good at a time when QB's were mauled by defenders but he only won 1 SB.
Bart Starr did win 2 SB but his regular season numbers were just average.

I agree with the fact that they only played 12 games and QB's were mauled by defenders but they also played at a time where all teams in the NFL were not as competitive as they are today. In the 60's and 70's there were a few teams that were really dominating and the rest of the teams were below average making it easier for QB's to win games.
Sure, you are comparing regular reasons stats between 12, 14 and 16 game seasons. To move in the direction of a reasonable stat analysis you would have to go to per game...which would be a small step in the right direction.

And you don't seem to understand the rules changes issue. While QB's may have gotten mauled in the past, the sack did not become a stat until 1982. IT was the WR's who were really getting mauled before '78 because you could bump them all the way down the field.

You also seem to take some things into account in the reverse of what is logical. You discount some of Montana's success because he had good defenses and good running backs. I think that is arse backwards.

A better example might be Bradshaw, for most of the 70's he played on a team with a historcially good defense and two top notch backs (I think they might have been the first pair to go over a thousand yards each in the same season). So for most of his career he would never had needed or had the opportunity to throw the ball as often as say...Dan Fouts or Brady. Have a look at the attempts per game of someone like Brady, or Manning and compare that to Bradshaw or Unitas or someone from that era. The career totals of Brady and other modern quarterbacks are sure to be higher (especially the way you look at them) for someone in the modern era who will a) play a 10% longer season (at least) and will have a much larger number of attempts.

QB rating is also flawed. It rewards the dink and dunker over the long ball thrower. If I go three for three for nine yards and my team punts, I get a higher rating that if I throw a 40 yard completion and then three incompletions and have to punt. But who has done better for their team?

And your stats don't take into account running in any way.

Here is a great article showing why it is impossible to meaningfully compared stats even from the 80's and 90's to today. It was done in the Tebow/elway context but lists a few recent changes in rules that impact the comparison.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/...lacy-of-comparing-stats-across-different-eras


And then there is the large increase in Yac on an ongoing basis that balloons modern stats...

Addendum:

Here is another interesting chart for passing attempts per game average:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_att_per_g_career.htm

Now how can you fairly compare Bradshaw (23.2 per game) to Brady (36.7). I guess for starters you could double Bradshaw's passing numbers...it all gets silly in a hurry.
 

doggystyle99

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Sure, you are comparing regular reasons stats between 12, 14 and 16 game seasons. To move in the direction of a reasonable stat analysis you would have to go to per game...which would be a small step in the right direction.

And you don't seem to understand the rules changes issue. While QB's may have gotten mauled in the past, the sack did not become a stat until 1982. IT was the WR's who were really getting mauled before '78 because you could bump them all the way down the field.

You also seem to take some things into account in the reverse of what is logical. You discount some of Montana's success because he had good defenses and good running backs. I think that is arse backwards.

A better example might be Bradshaw, for most of the 70's he played on a team with a historcially good defense and two top notch backs (I think they might have been the first pair to go over a thousand yards each in the same season). So for most of his career he would never had needed or had the opportunity to throw the ball as often as say...Dan Fouts or Brady. Have a look at the attempts per game of someone like Brady, or Manning and compare that to Bradshaw or Unitas or someone from that era. The career totals of Brady and other modern quarterbacks are sure to be higher (especially the way you look at them) for someone in the modern era who will a) play a 10% longer season (at least) and will have a much larger number of attempts.

QB rating is also flawed. It rewards the dink and dunker over the long ball thrower. If I go three for three for nine yards and my team punts, I get a higher rating that if I throw a 40 yard completion and then three incompletions and have to punt. But who has done better for their team?

And your stats don't take into account running in any way.

Here is a great article showing why it is impossible to meaningfully compared stats even from the 80's and 90's to today. It was done in the Tebow/elway context but lists a few recent changes in rules that impact the comparison.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/...lacy-of-comparing-stats-across-different-eras


And then there is the large increase in Yac on an ongoing basis that balloons modern stats...

Addendum:

Here is another interesting chart for passing attempts per game average:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_att_per_g_career.htm

Now how can you fairly compare Bradshaw (23.2 per game) to Brady (36.7). I guess for starters you could double Bradshaw's passing numbers...it all gets silly in a hurry.
Again for I am comparing regular season as well as post season stats also super bowl wins as well as playoff wins. And also this thread was for SB era QB's not prior.
The QB's in the 70's were under constant pressure from defenders where todays QB's have very liberal rules set to protect the QB as well as help with the WR's being able to make plays on the ball.
No other 2 QB's other than Montana and Brady have been able to have such great success in regular season as well as post season. These two not only accumulated the passing statistics but they also accumulated a lot of wins as well as Super bowl Championships.

Terry Bradshaw did win 4 SB but he also played with one of the best ever defenses for the whole 1970's the Steel Curtain. His regular season numbers are very average and even watching film on him he is not as accurate as the other two and also he throw a lot INT's.
 

rld

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Again for I am comparing regular season as well as post season stats also super bowl wins as well as playoff wins. And also this thread was for SB era QB's not prior.
The QB's in the 70's were under constant pressure from defenders where todays QB's have very liberal rules set to protect the QB as well as help with the WR's being able to make plays on the ball.
No other 2 QB's other than Montana and Brady have been able to have such great success in regular season as well as post season. These two not only accumulated the passing statistics but they also accumulated a lot of wins as well as Super bowl Championships.

Terry Bradshaw did win 4 SB but he also played with one of the best ever defenses for the whole 1970's the Steel Curtain. His regular season numbers are very average and even watching film on him he is not as accurate as the other two and also he throw a lot INT's.
Numbers are not your strongpoint. Brady through about a third more passes per game than either Montana or Bradshaw. Yac, which pads a quarterbacks stats has continuously being going up, favours Brady and other modern passes.

Completion % has been going up steadily in the league as well. Brady is just part of that new style of football. How often was Bradshaw throwing to a four or five receiver set?

How many years did Landry call Staubach's plays right to a helmet radio?

Here is some more data to show that the league has become very pass happy as time goes on:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/...ation-is-in-order-the-passing-game-nfl-trends

A rising tide lifts all boats.

And I don't know what film you are watching but after Rocky retired and Franco went to Seattle (the pain...) Bradshaw became a different style passer and a very accurate one.

Here is a list of QB's somewhat subjectively rated (the top 25) in which the author tries to "normalize" the stats to the era. Now it is two years old but after "normalization" his stats were dead last of the 25.

http://www.squidoo.com/greatestquarterbacks#module94047431
 

doggystyle99

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Numbers are not your strongpoint. Brady through about a third more passes per game than either Montana or Bradshaw. Yac, which pads a quarterbacks stats has continuously being going up, favours Brady and other modern passes.

Completion % has been going up steadily in the league as well. Brady is just part of that new style of football. How often was Bradshaw throwing to a four or five receiver set?

How many years did Landry call Staubach's plays right to a helmet radio?

Here is some more data to show that the league has become very pass happy as time goes on:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/...ation-is-in-order-the-passing-game-nfl-trends

A rising tide lifts all boats.

And I don't know what film you are watching but after Rocky retired and Franco went to Seattle (the pain...) Bradshaw became a different style passer and a very accurate one.

Here is a list of QB's somewhat subjectively rated (the top 25) in which the author tries to "normalize" the stats to the era. Now it is two years old but after "normalization" his stats were dead last of the 25.

http://www.squidoo.com/greatestquarterbacks#module94047431
Terry Bradshaw has 212 TD to 210INT not the most accurate passer
 

rld

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Terry Bradshaw has 212 TD to 210INT not the most accurate passer
I never suggested he was the "best ever" I just used him as an example of how impossible it is to compare across eras.

Also the rules differences resulted in different outcomes. You don't seem to have an answer to any of the statistical and rules related issues about your "grand claim" for Brady.

You just keep taking gross career statistics from eras with different numbers of game and rules and keep comparing them. It is a mug's game that really leads no where.
 

shack

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The best way to evaluate a QB's performance is to see how it compares in relation to other QBs of their era, i.e. how much better they were than the standards of their time.

Babe Ruth's HR numbers were equivalent to whole teams' totals.

Gretzky would get more assists than anyone else had total points. If you had half 99's points, you were a superstar.

Michael Jordan, marginally better (statistically) than the rest of the top players but consistently so for a number of years.
 

scfd146

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I agree with rid and shack, it's impossible to compare stats between athletes from different eras! Your argument is that Montana and Brady are both from the Superbowl era, which is true, but those players had different rules to adhere here, different systems, different schedules, etc.

Like shack said using the babe Ruth example, the babe hit 50 + homers several times, but the ball parks were bigger and the ball itself was like a rolled up pair of socks, in comparison to say, Barry bonds, who juiced, played In Hitting friendly parks, and the ball has a core like a golf ball!

So, my point is, as interesting it is to compare different players, you can't always say it is a true comparison , especially based solely on stats.
 

shai

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This one is simple

It's Joe Montana followed by Brady & Bradshaw. Don't look at the career stats, look at wins in the playoffs and consider that Montana ended his career playing injured on substandard teams. Then you can mention Elway & Eli Manning, don't mention Peyton as his baby brother's playoff stats are infinitely better than his, don't mention Marino as he never won an SB and like Favre & peyton could be relied upon to give up the timely interception.

Also understand that the 3 greatest teams of the Superbowl era are the Bradshaw Steelers, The Montana/Young 49'ers and the Brady Patriots. It was the synergy of these teams under the leadership of these QB's and their coachs that was great, individual stats be damned.

Do you think for a moment that Chuck knolll would have preferred Staubach to Bradshaw or Walsh Marino for Montana or Bellichik Peyton Manning for Brady? They'd have laughed in your face.
 

Doot

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Dan Marino is the best quarterback of all-time. If he and Don Shula had an average defence then he would've won a series of Superbowls.
 

Don

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John Elway played 16 seasons threw for 51,475 yards had thrown for 300 TD but threw nearly twice as much INT as Brady 226 INT went to 5 SB and only won 2 his regular season numbers are just average compared to Montana and Brady.
I have a soft spot for Elway. His teams were pretty average. He was the one real superstar and he led Denver to division crowns and superbowls in the early years strictly because of his talents alone. When he finally got some talent towards the end of his career and a coach who installed an offense around his talents, his number improved dramatically. He had his best statistical years in his mid-to-late 30's.

Montana's teams were loaded. Brady is very good but he never had to do as much as Elway.
 

bazokajoe

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So are we just talking about QB's who played in the super bowl or QB's in general since the 2 leagues merged?

I have to say Dan Marino was the best QB during his time in the league.Never won a SB but had so many records when he retired.These records stood for so long.

Now for QB's that played just in the SB.Gotta go( in no order) Brady,Aikmen,Bradshaw,Montana.
 

dudley

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what about Ben Roethlisberger?? has been in the league 7 yrs and has been to 3 superbowls winning two. There is no doubt that hes not only the toughest qb in the nfl but probably the toughest player in the nfl.
 
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