Driving may be more convenient, depending on traffic and whether you have to walk outside in bad weather, but cheaper? No way!
War on Public Transit
- Thread starter Brill
- Start date
It's not a direct comparison between the plate fee and TTC fees. Lots of people own cars and never drive anywhere near downtown or at rush hour - they got nothing to do with buses. And please, no bullshit about how drivers don't pay their share - the federal and provincial gas taxes more than cover it (even if there were no cars you would still need roads for buses, taxis and delivery vehicles).
The federal and provincial gas taxes come nowhere near covering the costs of the roads. The gas consumed on a highway over its life generates tax that is only a small fraction of the cost of building and maintaining that highway. And this is not yet even including the costs of pollution.
Highways are primarily paid for out of income tax, GST, etc., not gas taxes. The gas taxes don't even come close to being enough.
As for indirect users of roads, like buses, taxis, and delivery vehicles--those vehicles should be made to pay the full cost of using the road, and pass the costs on to their customers. That way the true beneficiary of the road--the end customer--winds up paying their fair share.
Highways are primarily paid for out of income tax, GST, etc., not gas taxes. The gas taxes don't even come close to being enough.
As for indirect users of roads, like buses, taxis, and delivery vehicles--those vehicles should be made to pay the full cost of using the road, and pass the costs on to their customers. That way the true beneficiary of the road--the end customer--winds up paying their fair share.
Like police keeping order, an army protecting us from invasion, hospitals caring for us when we're ill and schools educating our children, roads to get us around are a public good. You couls add water, sewers and a whole bunch of other stuff to that list. That's what taxes are for; we all pay'em we all benefit.
Transit should be in that list.
Transit should be in that list.
Paris charges by distance. Was there in the summer and took the subway. Don't recall what I paid, but it was more than a buck.
The one station I was in (Gare Nord) was cofusing as all hell.
Took the RER (??) and then transferred to the subway at some point. What I do rememember was that the the subway interchange (there were 3 lines coming into this one station) was like a train station (all tracks side by side separated by platforms) and you had to go up, then down again to get to your correct line. (Unlike Toronto where interchanges are grade separated.)
It was an adventure.
We took a cab to the airport coming home.
Careful what you wish for.
Where do you think the money comes from to fix roads and bridges in the City of Toronto?
Property taxes.
By your logic (making people pay for Transit cause they are using it), drivers should pay then for roads and bridges and roadway infrastructure. (Since they are the ones using it.)
Are you on glue?
The price of operating a vehicle - a shitty vehicle at that, works out to be around 60 cents a kilometre on average. Never mind parking which can be anywhere from $4.00 to $40.00 depending.
Here is a very nifty document put out by the CAA determining costs per KM to drive either Chevy Cobalt (about as fucking cheap and useless as it gets) or a Chysler Minivan (a family shit box) Never fucking mind the cost to drive any sort of higher end vehicle (BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Accura, MB, etc.) The rates would go off the charts.
ANNUAL DRIVING COSTS
The amount you drive has a direct relationship to your costs per kilometre.
Using the Runzheimer figures in the preceding table, you can expect the following
approximate costs:
ANNUAL DRIVING COSTS – based on the Chevrolet Cobalt LT
Km driven Annual operating Annual ownership Total cost Cost per km
per year costs (variable) costs (fixed)
12,000 km $1,512 $6,256 $7,768 64.7 cents / km
16,000 km $2,016 $6,256 $8,272 51.7 cents / km
18,000 km $2,268 $6,256 $8,524 47.4 cents / km
24,000 km $3,024 $6,430 $9,454 39.4 cents / km
32,000 km $4,032 $6,662 $10,694 33.4 cents / km
ANNUAL DRIVING COSTS – based on the Dodge Grand Caravan
Km driven Annual operating Annual ownership Total cost Cost per km
per year costs (variable) costs (fixed)
12,000 km $2,016 $8,567 $10,583 88.2 cents / km
16,000 km $2,688 $8,567 $11,255 70.3 cents / km
18,000 km $3,024 $8,567 $11,591 64.4 cents / km
24,000 km $4,032 $8,747 $12,779 53.2 cents / km
32,000 km $5,376 $8,987 $14,363 44.9 cents / km
Link:
http://www.caa.ca/documents/CAA_Driving_Costs_Brochure_2010.pdf
Aside, hence the reason why when I used to work for Massive Corporation I fucking hated when I had to use my car work business purposes. Massive Corporation payed the peons 46 cents a km. Idiots in my office always wanted to drive in order to "get the mileage" I had no problem with letting anyone put the km on their car for Massive Corporation. I used to lobby the Fat Cats at Massive Corporation to buy 3 "office vehicles" that we could share. Needless to say that they knew they were getting a sweet deal at 46 cents a km for the peons.
Every time car drivers buy 100.00 worth of gas in GTA they pay about $34.00 in taxes that go to the Feds and province of Ontario. That seems like more than just a 'fair share'.
http://www.ontariogasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx
http://www.ontariogasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx
Until very recently (like 2 or 3 years ago) cities did not get a cut of the "gas taxes" The cost of municiple roadway infrastructure was paid out of property taxes.
Even now, the cities get a token cut only and it in no way covers near the cost of roadway infrastructure at the Municiple level.
Actually, Trucks are the WORST offenders.
One fully laden highway truck does as much damage to the roadway structure with one pass as 10,000 car passes.
Trucks get away with murder.
I'm all for putting trucks on trains. One train can take 500 trucks off of a road. They run in their own corridors, on their own infrastructure, away from cars, don't damage the roads, pollution per container is a fraction of what a truck would create. Superior in every way.
You dont realize that every truck on the road pays $11,000 in taxes, do you? Putting trucks on trains, en masse, is a pipe dream. In certain situations, it works well. In todays "just in time" environment, trains are inefficient and slow. Until every shop and store gets a rail spur line, trucks will still be running around the city. This plan would take trucks off the 401, not Bayview. Trucks do more damage to the highways when loaded heavily. Truck weights are regulated by the provincial government. If you want to bitch about trucks tearing up highways, call your MPP.
The Canadian Taxpayers Federation estimates that only 10% of the money that Ottawa collects from gas taxes and fees gets spent on infrastructure and almost none of that on roads. Mainly because highways are a provincial jurisdiction.
In Ontario, gas taxes and fees generate about 3 billion a year in revenues and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation road capital and operating expenses amount to about 2 billion dollars per year.
In Ontario, gas taxes and fees generate about 3 billion a year in revenues and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation road capital and operating expenses amount to about 2 billion dollars per year.
I think the TTC fees are too high for what U get. A junk worn out subway car or a street car which isn't much fancier. Those subway trains are a hazard to ones hearing, that loud squeaky pitch sound on any curve. I seen other riders place their hands over their ears so I'm not the only one who thinks is very loud.
Many streetcar stops are just out in the open, U get to stand in the rain for 10-15 mins waiting for the streetcar to come.
And they want another fee increase? Lets have some improved in service first.
Many streetcar stops are just out in the open, U get to stand in the rain for 10-15 mins waiting for the streetcar to come.
And they want another fee increase? Lets have some improved in service first.
You don't realize that 400 series highway costs in excess of 50 million dollars per Kilometre to build in the GTA do you? 11 grand is FUCK ALL compared to the cost of building and rebuilding highways that trucks rip the shit out of every minute of every day.
Intermodal Transport is the way to go. Trucks go "the last mile" from the Intermodal yard to the end user.
Whether or not truck weights are regulated by the provincial gov't is irrelevent. They still do as much damage in 1 pass as a 10,000 car passes and that is a fact. Bottom line, we are building highways to accomodate the trucking industry. Sure they are delivering goods for the populace, but trains do it better and cheaper, as fast or faster than trucks and can move it with next to no pollution. Never mind how many trucks are involved in fatal collisions on the highway killing motorists due to wheels flying off, or drivers falling asleep (been there myself) or just plain old and unsafe rigs. If a train derails, usually it's in the middle of the bush.
Oh, and your Highway Truck can carry 50,000 pounds (without a special permit). Trains = 286,000 pounds per car.
Posters on here are arguing that the end user should pay the cost. By that logic, the trucking industry should pay for highway infrastructure (that it rips up) and pass the cost along to consumers. Trucks have been getting a free ride for way too long in this world.
I think reducing the weight of trucks would go a long way to reducing road damage. In the US the max weight is a lot lower. If you reduce the weight, it would do a couple of things, long haul trucking would become less competitive while you would need MORE short haul trucks. The short haul trucks would accelerate and brake faster reducing traffic issues. I think employment for truckers would remain about the same and safety would improve.
Everything old will be new again; there's nothing smart about a highway full of moving warehouses called trucks, and 'just in time' is an expensive fad, as well as disastrous when one part of the 'system' fails; like when a parts plant goes on strike, or the Excited States come up with new border rules.
Before GM swindled us into tearing them up, we did have spur lines into every factory and warehouse. They ran right down the streets in industrial neighbourhoods. We had lines in residential areas too. Streetcars ran on them. Carried a coupla dozen taxpaying fare-payers for the cost per mile of one car carrying one guy (who's likely stupid enough to imagine that streetcar's blocking him!)
Too bad the GM geniuses weren't smart enough to tell cities like LA and Ottawa to bury the lines for when the oil runs out instead of ripping them up. But private cars are a fad too. And it'll end when drivers actually have to pay their real costs.
"When the TTC expanded bus hours in 2008 to match the subways, ridership didn’t grow to fill those vehicles, she said.The cuts will come on buses where there are no more than 12 riders per hour in both directions. In exchange, overcrowded buses will get more service in September."
Why not have smaller buses for these routes ? It will be the seniors who will not be able to walk to a different bus
Why not have smaller buses for these routes ? It will be the seniors who will not be able to walk to a different bus
If you take the TTC twice a day, 365 days a year, the 10 cent fare increase will cost you 73.00 more a year. I fail to see how this will suddenly make people decide to drive instead of taking public transit. There's all sorts of reasons why people drive instead of taking public transit and vise versa.
It mainly comes down to cost, your job, convenience, family, lifestyle etc. If you don't need a car and all your needs can be served by public transit, good for you, take the TTC. On the other hand, if you have 3 kids, one in hockey, one takes swimming lessons and the other in gymnastics in different parts of the city, the TTC is simply not an option.
That's because it was a tax on drivers that went into general coffers, not towards the TTC or roads. How would you like it if they raised TTC fares to support increased funding to special interest groups?
Then take a cab!
You're getting all logical on us, no one will be able to understand your thinking.
As he says caressing his bicycle.
What you fail to realize is that even people who don't drive benefit from roads. They are shared by public transit vehicles, city service, police, fire, ambulance, delivery trucks etc. How do you think grocery stores, shops restaurants etc. get their product?
Drivers pay lots of tax, the problem is the money that's collected from drivers doesn't go toward roads and public transit. It goes into general coffers. Complain to your government, not drivers.
The problem is we're paying TTC employees 80K - 100K a year to collect change and hand out tokens. It's seriously out of touch with reality. Ever been to Vancouver, ever take the SkyTrain? No ticket collectors, no driver, no whistle guys and the system works well. I bet you could increase service, and reduce fares if there weren't so many overpaid redundant jobs. But that's the Unions!
Sad but true. Say goodbye to many suburbs and the mall culture as well. Thankfully, we are starting to see it happen.
