Is the Kessel trade the greatest fleecing in NHL history?

[Steve Harper]

No matter what Burke does, he can never do worse that Russ Courtnall for John Kordic, the single worst trade in Leaf history.

At least Gord Stellick has a good sense of humour about it today. Montrealers have been laughing about it for over 20 years.

 

[JohnLarue]

You are some kind of Leafs/Burke fan Shack.

Here we have a franchise which for 2 years in a row is struggling to stay out of the basement and has no first round pick to show for. Getting rid of the likes of Blake and Toskala might have been the best moves Burke has made since he took control; but what else has he brought on the team except Kessel ? Take a look at the overall talent on this team and tell me if you honestly feel that we should have reasonable hopes that it can become a contender in the forseeable fuure ? And what exactly has Wilson accomplished as a Leafs coach ? Won-loss records ? Specailty team records ? What else would you used to measure a coach's abilities ?



These are hard facts you ignore. Intead of holding management accountable for these failures, you choose to pick on and mock your fellow Leafs for their passionate ceiticism. Granted, some of the comments might have been over the top, but you can't deny that your comments were somewhat exergerated also as I don't really recall reading exact same comments from any posters here.

I'd never critisize single moves made but I look for overall results and a direction the team is heading. Too many unknown factors to fans when individual decisions are made so the only way we fans can judge is by the results, or hindsight as you might call it. These GMs are paid millions to do a job and when the results are not there, no excuses are ever good enough.

And you could do better?

A month into your tenure you would have been burned by the other GMs in the business.
All of whom have forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know.

Arm Chair GMs do not risk anything and only offer criticism and get paid exactly what they are worth (nothing)
Try picking the next 18 year old draft pick when your team of scouts tells you whats his name from Kati stain is the next Wayne Gretzky, only to have Scottie Bowman and the Red Wings laugh and smile as they pick the real gem after you

Burke is a very smart man and knows hockey better than anyone on this board
He was handed a mess and he is trying to build a winner
It will probably take longer than you or Burke expect but if you let this guy do his job he will deliver an above .500 team
A team that goes deep in the playoffs or wins a cup requires intangibles beyond a GMs control in todays NHL
Anyone who understand hockey at all will recognize this

 

[alwayslooking]

And you could do better?

A month into your tenure you would have been burned by the other GMs in the business.
All of whom have forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know.

Arm Chair GMs do not risk anything and only offer criticism and get paid exactly what they are worth (nothing)
Try picking the next 18 year old draft pick when your team of scouts tells you whats his name from Kati stain is the next Wayne Gretzky, only to have Scottie Bowman and the Red Wings laugh and smile as they pick the real gem after you

Burke is a very smart man and knows hockey better than anyone on this board
He was handed a mess and he is trying to build a winner
It will probably take longer than you or Burke expect but if you let this guy do his job he will deliver an above .500 team
A team that goes deep in the playoffs or wins a cup requires intangibles beyond a GMs control in todays NHL
Anyone who understand hockey at all will recognize this

So if we go with your theory then the only people that can criticize Burke are former or current NHL GMs.

And I guess the only people that can criticize the Police are former or current cops and the only people alive that can criticize Stephen Harper are Paul Martin, Jean Chretien, Kim Campbell, Mulroney, Turner and Joe Clark.

Get real

Burke doesn't get paid to be smarter than terb posters He gets paid to be smarter than 29 other GMs and if he fails at this he deserves criticism. Take a high profile job you can expect to be criticized.

 

[shack]

And you could do better?

Arm Chair GMs do not risk anything and only offer criticism and get paid exactly what they are worth (nothing)

Good post by JlaR.

Seeing as these guys are never wrong the logical conclusion is that the worst mistake Burke has made is not hiring them as part of his management team. Look what he's missing out on.

 

[smuddan]

And you could do better?

A month into your tenure you would have been burned by the other GMs in the business.
All of whom have forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know.

Arm Chair GMs do not risk anything and only offer criticism and get paid exactly what they are worth (nothing)
Try picking the next 18 year old draft pick when your team of scouts tells you whats his name from Kati stain is the next Wayne Gretzky, only to have Scottie Bowman and the Red Wings laugh and smile as they pick the real gem after you

Burke is a very smart man and knows hockey better than anyone on this board
He was handed a mess and he is trying to build a winner
It will probably take longer than you or Burke expect but if you let this guy do his job he will deliver an above .500 team
A team that goes deep in the playoffs or wins a cup requires intangibles beyond a GMs control in todays NHL
Anyone who understand hockey at all will recognize this

one of the most naive comments I often read in these kinds of forums is how some like to win arguments by questioning the credentials of people who express opinions that differ theirs. Too often people just cannot debate like true gentlemen without some kinds of personal attacks.

For all I know you could be Burke himself, or GB ? Or just someone who has an obssession for Burke. It really doesn't matter. I welcome debates, I'd love to be educated with intelligence but it seems all you Burke-lovers can do is repeating how smart you think Burke is, and throw in some name-calling and hope that will win you arguments.

Could I have done better ? Honestly I could probably done worst - like the team would finish last instead of "2nd last".

 

[JohnLarue]

So if we go with your theory then the only people that can criticize Burke are former or current NHL GMs.

Well, until you have a walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you probably do not have a full understanding of the challenges they face and therefore are not really qualified to criticize them

The ability to handle to Media coverage of the Leafs is one aspect of the job that would give 95% of the public an ulcer.

As I mentioned earlier the Leafs team was a mess when Burke was hired. It will take several years to build a solid team that wins more than they lose.

The expectation that Burke will arrive and transform this team into a contender within two years is ridiculous

Three of the last 4 cup winners, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Anaheim all bottomed out and then had to be rebuilt over several years
(Pittsburgh was fortunate enough to win the lottery pick for Crosby a very special talent. Had John Fergusion Jr won that pick he still might still be running the Leafs)

The fourth, Detroit has been built into a power house consistently winning over a decade plus. But at one point they were known as the Dead Things and had to be rebuilt over several years.

Time will tell if the Kessel trade was a good one or not.
Tyler Sequin looks like he will be a very good player, but history is full of high draft picks that just could not make it happen in the NHL (Alexander Daige comes to mind), so until Sequin scores 30-40 a year for several years running or the 2011 draft pick develops into a MVP candidate, then it is impossible to properly evaluate the trade

 

[shack]

one of the most naive comments I often read in these kinds of forums is how some like to win arguments by questioning the credentials of people who express opinions that differ theirs. Too often people just cannot debate like true gentlemen without some kinds of personal attacks.

I do not consider asking what credentials one has to be a personal attack. It is a legitimate question to one who tries to place their judgement over that of an experienced/in-the-trenches executive.

 

[JohnLarue]

one of the most naive comments I often read in these kinds of forums is how some like to win arguments by questioning the credentials of people who express opinions that differ theirs. Too often people just cannot debate like true gentlemen without some kinds of personal attacks.

For all I know you could be Burke himself, or GB ? Or just someone who has an obssession for Burke. It really doesn't matter. I welcome debates, I'd love to be educated with intelligence but it seems all you Burke-lovers can do is repeating how smart you think Burke is, and throw in some name-calling and hope that will win you arguments.

Could I have done better ? Honestly I could probably done worst - like the team would finish last instead of "2nd last".

Well I can tell you that I am not Brian Burke. I suspect he is far too busy to spend time on an Internet chat board defending his actions using a false identity.

I do respect Burke's understanding of the game and I have confidence that he will build a team that can compete, but it will take time

Your last vs. second last comment is short sighted.
Evaluating a GMs performance requires a much longer term view which begs the question about your understanding of the game and the nature of the GM position

 

[alwayslooking]

Three of the last 4 cup winners, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Anaheim all bottomed out and then had to be rebuilt over several years
(Pittsburgh was fortunate enough to win the lottery pick for Crosby a very special talent. Had John Fergusion Jr won that pick he still might still be running the Leafs)

What was there reward for bottoming out? The Kessel trade has robbed the Leafs of that reward for what looks like a player who is a nice piece but not a "franchise" type player.

So when would it be acceptable to criticize a GM or is it ever acceptable? When GM's or coaches make wrong decisions it is not only fair to criticize their moves it's what they should do. Lord knows if Leaf fans were a little more critical with their wallet the last 43 soon to be 44 years some of the teams results might've been different.

 

[smuddan]

I do not consider asking what credentials one has to be a personal attack. It is a legitimate question to one who tries to place their judgement over that of an experienced/in-the-trenches executive.

When did I place my judgement over Burke's ? All I really did was commenting that I didn't think he would have made the Kessel trade if he had correctly evaluated the team's talent (as needed to make the playoffs) before he made the trade.

Look, hockey is entertainment and you don't need to justify why you're a fan of somebody. It's just silly if you feel the need to attack anyone who critisizes your idol even though it is duly deserved.

 

[JohnLarue]

So if we go with your theory then the only people that can criticize Burke are former or current NHL GMs.
QUOTE]

If you were ask the other GMs if they respect Brian Burke as a GM and if they felt he is the right man for the job, I bet you would get close to 100% approval.
Kevin Lowe may not like him personally, however I suspect he would still offer approval on Burke's knowledge of the game and his ability to build a winner.

I would tend to put for more value on their opinion that that of an Arm Chair GM

 

[Captain Fantastic]

While it's not the worst trade of all time, it has to be considered a pretty big error in judgment by Burke.

I'm no armchair GM-basher, but two first rounders (blue-chip Tyler Seguin + 2011 [top 5?]) and a second (Jared Knight - very solid player in London) PLUS handing Kessel a 5-year, $27 million contract in a salary cap league is a steep price for a guy who is at best, a one-dimensional goal scorer who has never proven himself to be a winner or great teammate and whose highest goal output is 36. It also allowed Boston to have the salary cap flexibility to go out and get Nathan Horton while stockpiling talent for the future. Perhaps the trade can be considered more of a win for Boston than a loss for the Leafs?

Burke's biggest mistake was overestimating the talent level in Toronto - this is not like Detroit where they trade first rounders because the team is stacked and the picks will be in the late 20 range - and believing the team actually could make the playoffs last year and this. Pretty big mistake.

Time will tell, but this trade is shaping up like THE black mark against Brian Burke's tenure/legacy in Toronto. As a hockey fan, I hope it's not crippling for the short and long-term future of the franchise. I also hope BB is able to be creative and dig up talent in non-traditional ways and win a few more trades to increase the talent level in the organization.

 

[JohnLarue]

What was there reward for bottoming out? The Kessel trade has robbed the Leafs of that reward for what looks like a player who is a nice piece but not a "franchise" type player.

So when would it be acceptable to criticize a GM or is it ever acceptable? When GM's or coaches make wrong decisions it is not only fair to criticize their moves it's what they should do. Lord knows if Leaf fans were a little more critical with their wallet the last 43 soon to be 44 years some of the teams results might've been different.

1. Again only time will tell if Sequin or the 2011 first rounder are indeed franchise players, until then it is impossible to objectively access the trade.

2. It is acceptable to criticize only when you have all the facts and there is a track record to evaluate.
Right now the only relevant facts are how Kessel has played since the trade (not great, however not poorly either)
The value of Sequin and the 2011 pick have yet to be determined and until they produce (or not) is just speculation.
I suspect Sequin will become a very good player of comparable value to Kessel and I suspect the 2011 pick will be a good player tipping the balance of the trade in Bostons favor, but until these things come to pass, it is just my speculation

Any chance you would like to evaluated based upon someones speculation of a future event?

An acceptable track record to evaluate a GM is over many years (a lot more than 2 years) and as long as there are incremental improvements, he is doing his job.

Replacing him would a step back wards as the Leafs would then get blown up once more as the new GM puts his plan into place

 

[smuddan]

So if we go with your theory then the only people that can criticize Burke are former or current NHL GMs.
QUOTE]

If you were ask the other GMs if they respect Brian Burke as a GM and if they felt he is the right man for the job, I bet you would get close to 100% approval.
Kevin Lowe may not like him personally, however I suspect he would still offer approval on Burke's knowledge of the game and his ability to build a winner.

I would tend to put for more value on their opinion that that of an Arm Chair GM

And this is from someone who's calling others "armchair GMs"- you are representing yourself like you are some kind of mind reader, as if you really know what all other GMs really think about Burke.

 

[alwayslooking]

So if we go with your theory then the only people that can criticize Burke are former or current NHL GMs.
QUOTE]

If you were ask the other GMs if they respect Brian Burke as a GM and if they felt he is the right man for the job, I bet you would get close to 100% approval.
Kevin Lowe may not like him personally, however I suspect he would still offer approval on Burke's knowledge of the game and his ability to build a winner.

I would tend to put for more value on their opinion that that of an Arm Chair GM

If you think you'll get honest analysis from other GMs you're kidding yourself. These guys rarely speak negatively about each other. I guess you get all Leafs news from the official website then since anything written by a newspaper writer would be critical analysis by an unqualified individual. Sure WOW Leafs fans

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/steve_simmons/2010/12/04/16431696.html

 

[fmahovalich]

As of TODAYS date.

Kessel 17 G 12 A 29P Seguin 6 G 8 A 14P

THEREFORE...AS OF TODAYS DATE...TORONTO WINS THE TRADE..

EVERYTHING ELSE IS SPECULATION

 

[Captain Fantastic]

^^^ That has to be the most ignorant post in the thread. Well played, sir...

 

[Bigger]

The problem was Cliff Fletcher. He was so suppose to be a temporary GM until Leaf ownership found an official GM which was Brian Burke. Cliff Fletcher trades and signings were all flops (Steen and Colaiacovo for Steen and Mayers), free agent signings such as Hagman, and jeff finger and the signing of Ron Wilson. He also ran Tucker and Sundin outta town from his previous ego. He should of stand pat and let the new management make all of the moves. I'm that Brian Burke would have kept tucker and sundin for another 2 years and got better in return.

 

[JohnLarue]

And this is from someone who's calling others "armchair GMs"- you are representing yourself like you are some kind of mind reader, as if you really know what all other GMs really think about Burke.

He is well respected in the league and has a track record of building winners
Thats good enough for me to give him the benefit of a doubt and value his judgement over an Arm Chair GM

 

[JohnLarue]

As of TODAYS date.

Kessel 17 G 12 A 29P Seguin 6 G 8 A 14P

THEREFORE...AS OF TODAYS DATE...TORONTO WINS THE TRADE..

EVERYTHING ELSE IS SPECULATION

Thats not what I meant
Its too early to properly evaluate the trade as there are too many unknowns