Tipping: why is 10% not perfectly adequate?

[burt-oh-my!]

Well, one server said $28/hr was what he wanted, then promptly denied it. So taking him at his word, I still don't know what an hourly wage rate, tips included, servers think is reasonable. So no, it hasn't been clearly answered. Why don't you just stop playing little verbal games and come out and say what you think a fair hourly rate is? I think $15 per hour is adequate. You think differently no doubt - that's fine. Might be nice to know exactly what it is though.

2nd paragraph - I presume that your second sentence means I don't have to pay them if I don't want to.

What I want is a RATIONALE for their wages. I think you must admit that there should be some rationale for it. so in this thread I wanted to discuss that rationale. A lot of people seem to think I guess that we should leave well emough alone. Or they take exception to having the discussion in nuts and bolts, dollars and cents terms. Sorry, I will discuss it if I like.

My asking how much is not asking how much they DO get paid, on a tipping percent basis: clearly I am aware of the fact that 15% or higher is the norm. I want to discuss what this means in terms of an hourly wage, and whether that result in turn is reasonable.

I am not sure what you are referring to in the 1st sentence of the last paragraph - other services. You might be referring to my disinclination to bring in what all sorts of other individual careers pay, including mine, or you might be referring to something else. if the former - again, what I make has no relevancy. I may be underpaid, or overpaid - that doesnt change the fact that servers might be underpaid as well. I may be fat, or I may be thin, but that is irrelevant to the TRUTHFULNESS of whether it is healthier to be fat or thin.

I suppose that if I make any negative comment about any job classification then, accordking to you, I 'have something against them'. I suppose in one sense that is true: I have something about their case that I'd like to have a conversation about.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

To me, good service is part of the dining experience and I am willing to tip to ensure I get it consistently.

I tend to eat at very good restaurants and tend to eat at the same restaurants time and again. I really enjoy a good meal, properly presented, with good wine suggestions or pairings, with top notch knowledgeable service. If I want that on a consistent basis I figure I better tip well. It usually works out for me just fine.

In more economical restaurants I tip because I figure the people working there arn't making a lot and if they can slog through that job and still give me good attitude and service they deserve a little thanks. I don't feel I have to tip, and don't tip in the service is weak, but I figure living in the TO area is expensive and there is nothing wrong with helping those folks out.

Personally I work in a service industry and never get tipped, but our culture doesn't expect it either.

It's a cultural norm to tip for food in our society and you can ignore cultural norms all you want, but there are consequences.

I appreciate your points. the only thing I would add is that we don't have to accept cultural norms as static: they do change.

 

[fuji]

I still don't know what an hourly wage rate, tips included, servers think is reasonable. So no, it hasn't been clearly answered. Why don't you just stop playing little verbal games and come out and say what you think a fair hourly rate is? I think $15 per hour is adequate.

It depends on the restaurant. I expect more from a waiter at Harbour 60 than from Milestones, and I would expect the Harbour 60 waiter is going to get paid a lot more. $15/hr may be reasonable for Milestones and is likely horribly low for Harbour 60.

At the end of the day wait staff are salespeople and should be paid on a commission basis: if they can upsell you into buying that $100 bottle of wine (or $1000 bottle), they should earn more as a result. It's in the interests of the restaurant to have waiters who do their best to up sell you and they should be paid that way.

Tipping is basically a commission system. Unlike most commission it's paid "openly" by the customer, whereas that guy at Future Shop earns a percentage of the sale "secretly".

If you were to succeed in having the tip buried in some kind of internal commission structure great--but it wouldn't change the amount you pay on the bill, as the sales staff should still be earning their 15% commission.

 

[Toke]

Well, one server said $28/hr was what he wanted, then promptly denied it. So taking him at his word, I still don't know what an hourly wage rate, tips included, servers think is reasonable. So no, it hasn't been clearly answered. Why don't you just stop playing little verbal games and come out and say what you think a fair hourly rate is? I think $15 per hour is adequate. You think differently no doubt - that's fine. Might be nice to know exactly what it is though.

2nd paragraph - I presume that your second sentence means I don't have to pay them if I don't want to.

What I want is a RATIONALE for their wages. I think you must admit that there should be some rationale for it. so in this thread I wanted to discuss that rationale. A lot of people seem to think I guess that we should leave well emough alone. Or they take exception to having the discussion in nuts and bolts, dollars and cents terms. Sorry, I will discuss it if I like.

My asking how much is not asking how much they DO get paid, on a tipping percent basis: clearly I am aware of the fact that 15% or higher is the norm. I want to discuss what this means in terms of an hourly wage, and whether that result in turn is reasonable.

I am not sure what you are referring to in the 1st sentence of the last paragraph - other services. You might be referring to my disinclination to bring in what all sorts of other individual careers pay, including mine, or you might be referring to something else. if the former - again, what I make has no relevancy. I may be underpaid, or overpaid - that doesnt change the fact that servers might be underpaid as well. I may be fat, or I may be thin, but that is irrelevant to the TRUTHFULNESS of whether it is healthier to be fat or thin.

I suppose that if I make any negative comment about any job classification then, accordking to you, I 'have something against them'. I suppose in one sense that is true: I have something about their case that I'd like to have a conversation about.

I am more than comfortable saying that servers should make $25/h. However, this is not the case for the majority of servers; especially in their first year or two. Furthermore, this number (as I already stated) does not increase or decrease much over time (the base remains the same $1 below minimum and, unless something drastic occurs to volume, so do tips), so the waiter with 10 or 20 years experience does not see a considerable change in his income.

I appreciate your points. the only thing I would add is that we don't have to accept cultural norms as static: they do change.

Sure many things have/will change over time. How much are professionals to be paid relative to teachers whom they all required to be who/what they are? Do we really need to highly train and pay as many lawyers as we do? Some will argue 'yes', but many will also argue 'no'.

Right here on TERB, many have belly-ached about rising 'hobby' rates, but as a luxury service, the ladies will/do charge what their target market will bear. Sure their are a ton of SPs/MPAs that many of us would like to see, however, at $XXX/h, if the lady charges beyond what I feel want to pay, then I avoid. Last week, for instance, a new spa began advertising and I pointed out that some of their their price-points were beyond that of the most reputable places discussed. Rather than provoke a big discussion, I also pointed out that they have value at certain services, and then made my own decision as to whether I would/wouldn't go. I do/did it all the time when hobbying.

When dining out I do the same. If the menu plus service charges will cost me more than I want to spend, I don't decide that their prices/wages/income should be put up for debate (especially with a group who has no experience in the industry). I go where I can afford/find value.

 

[Toke]

It depends on the restaurant. I expect more from a waiter at Harbour 60 than from Milestones, and I would expect the Harbour 60 waiter is going to get paid a lot more. $15/hr may be reasonable for Milestones and is likely horribly low for Harbour 60.

At the end of the day wait staff are salespeople and should be paid on a commission basis: if they can upsell you into buying that bottle of wine, they should earn more as a result. It's in the interests of the restaurant to have waiters who do their best to up sell you and they should be paid that way.

Tipping is basically a commission system. Unlike most commission it's paid "openly" by the customer, whereas that guy at Future Shop earns a percentage of the sale "secretly".

If you were to succeed in having the tip buried in some kind of internal commission structure great--but it wouldn't change the amount you pay on the bill, as the sales staff should still be earning their 15% commission.

I've said this and more. Perhaps they/we would still receive 15% tip/commision, but if serving became 'wage paid', the increase would be my than 15% to cover the costs of fluctuating wages (e.g. raises), higher taxes to be paid by the company, and perhaps more prominent benefit packages which are all but non-existent in most restaurants.

 

[gcostanza]

Well, one server said $28/hr was what he wanted, then promptly denied it. So taking him at his word, I still don't know what an hourly wage rate, tips included, servers think is reasonable.

I never stated that I wanted $28/hr, I stated that I would not do the job for much less.

I had to deny your lie, or it would be accepted by some as truth.

I have seen various servers (or former servers) in this thread indicate that they see the figure I quoted as fairly accurate, and satisfactory for the position.

It is a skilled trade, when performed properly, and should be paid a skilled tradesperson's rate.

 

[rld]

I appreciate your points. the only thing I would add is that we don't have to accept cultural norms as static: they do change.

Yes, but in my experience the norm for tips seems to be going up over the last few decades.

But to be honest tipping is really a personal choice. And to be honest I often give a higher tip to an attractive female server than a male, even if the service isn't wow. But that is what makes it a personal choice.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

I never stated that I wanted $28/hr, I stated that I would not do the job for much less.

I had to deny your lie, or it would be accepted by some as truth.

I have seen various servers (or former servers) in this thread indicate that they see the figure I quoted as fairly accurate, and satisfactory for the position.

It is a skilled trade, when performed properly, and should be paid a skilled tradesperson's rate.

You are a real logical piece of work! You give a $28 figure, then you deny you want it, then you say its reasonable, then you say I lie when I mentioned that you wanted it, then YOU unequivocally lie when you said you would not do it for MUCH less, whereas in your original post you said you would not do it for less, you just added the word 'much less' now to try to cover your tracks.

I worked in the industry for 25 years (retired 3 years ago). I think I am somewhat qualified to answer some of your questions.

I would not have done the job for less than $28/hour .
.

Clearly dishonest. Now you spend all your time justifying it! LOL

 

[burt-oh-my!]

Yes, but in my experience the norm for tips seems to be going up over the last few decades.
.

Yes, I read a study indicating that tipping rates are going up gradually over time. One mentioned that service hasn't changed at all, but tipping tends to occur when we want the server to like us, and the only way to ensure that is to give a little bit more than what we perceive as average, hence the upwards creep as THAT becomes the new average.

 

[thompo69]

Did you borrow your neice's textbooks to find out what Tu Tuoque is? You present it as if you're the only one who has ever heard of it.

Actually, he is the only one who's ever heard of it since it doesn't exist. I presume his is referring to the tu quoque fallacy.

 

[lurkerjoe]

I'm still pissed off at the HST.Don't get me going.

There's always been GST and PST on restaurant food so there's nothing new with the HST, except restaurants can now claim input tax credits, which lowers the cost of doing business. Means that they should be passing on the savings to customers. But this is Canada and if it isn't the government screwing you over it's the businesses. So they pocket the savings and give us the middle finger. Plus, they insult us by blaming government as if we're retards.

 

[JohnLarue]

What people should be paid is relative and in-line with the cost of living and what the market allows.

You are 100% incorrect when you state what a person should be paid is relative to the cost of living
You are 100 correct when you state what a person should be paid is determined by what the market allows

However those are two very different things.
What I tip has absolutely nothing to do with how much it costs a waitress or server to maintain a certain standard of living.

Let me be very clear " I do not owe them or anyone else a certain standard of living"

In the case of tipping it is completely at my discretion and since at point in time I am the only participant in the market, I decide what the market is for their service.

If the server was attentive and genuinely interested in helping to make this particular dining experience a great one, I tip very generously.

If I sense an attitude that they do not care one way or another and I am just invoice # 1453, then I leave a penny.

I understand that somethings are out of their control, (if they are understaffed, who cooks the meal, etc) and I take that into consideration when determining a tip

However, no way in hell do I owe then a certain standard of living. If they want that, become an outstanding waitress or find a new occupation

Oh yeah, it helps if she has huge tits

 

[Toke]

You are 100% incorrect when you state what a person should be paid is relative to the cost of living
You are 100 correct when you state what a person should be paid is determined by what the market allows

However those are two very different things.
What I tip has absolutely nothing to do with how much it costs a waitress or server to maintain a certain standard of living.

Let me be very clear " I do not owe them or anyone else a certain standard of living"

In the case of tipping it is completely at my discretion and since at point in time I am the only participant in the market, I decide what the market is for their service.

If the server was attentive and genuinely interested in helping to make this particular dining experience a great one, I tip very generously.

If I sense an attitude that they do not care one way or another and I am just invoice # 1453, then I leave a penny.

I understand that somethings are out of their control, (if they are understaffed, who cooks the meal, etc) and I take that into consideration when determining a tip

However, no way in hell do I owe then a certain standard of living. If they want that, become an outstanding waitress or find a new occupation

Oh yeah, it helps if she has huge tits

I agree with everything said 100%. Seriously. I earn my percentages and look at it as a table-by-table process. I no choice but to. Heck, you even take the restaurant's environment (e.g. staffing issues) into consideration. Most don't (and really shouldn't have to) so I value you point of view. Unlike others you have validated your perspective on multiple aspects rather than simply throwing out some arbitrary figure.

 

[genintoronto]

What I want is a RATIONALE for their wages.

The rationale is pretty much the same as that for any other wages in a capitalist system: just enough that you'll have a competent labor supply willing to do the work, while still allowing the employer to make profit from the surplus value.

 

[afterhours]

There's always been GST and PST on restaurant food so there's nothing new with the HST, except restaurants can now claim input tax credits, which lowers the cost of doing business. Means that they should be passing on the savings to customers. But this is Canada and if it isn't the government screwing you over it's the businesses. So they pocket the savings and give us the middle finger. Plus, they insult us by blaming government as if we're retards.

seeing that every potential customer's income is suffering due to HST it well may be that the number of customers has decreased as a result, so restaurants are not exactly in a position to pass savings

 

[lurkerjoe]

seeing that every potential customer's income is suffering due to HST it well may be that the number of customers has decreased as a result, so restaurants are not exactly in a position to pass savings

Income? HST isn't about income, it's a consumption tax. Could it be that consumers are suffering because businesses refuse to pass on the savings?

To get back on topic, in the US you can get an equivalent meal for much less and it makes me feel happier to know that I had a good valued meal so I tip more often in the 20%+ round off to nearest 5 or 10. Here in Canada, rightly or wrongly, I'm much less generous (rigidly 15%-20%) because I don't feel I get good value for the meal, whether it's at Jack Astors or Reds Bistro. And before every wait staff on the board jumps all over me, I know the wait staff doesn't set the prices, the effin management does but human nature being what it is, people tend to not grossly overpay for something that they know can be cheaper elsewhere.

Also, in Canada, we have a more egalitarian society, so we have more (not all) wait staff who aren't as service oriented as those in the USA. I'm not saying that it sucks. In fact, I think that's great and I would never disrespect a server. It's not because I'm afraid they'll spit in my food but because they're just working smucks like me trying to make a honest buck.

But it's also why we get the outrage from the likes of Furo who claims to make six figures yet bitches like he makes 30K and his rant about how we dare put his six figure, undeclared income on the line by lousy tipping. To him and those like him, as an equal, I say fuck off.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

Long live Mr. Pink (isn't he the only one that survived?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLV4OxzDKwI&feature=fvst

 

[fuji]

seeing that every potential customer's income is suffering due to HST it well may be that the number of customers has decreased as a result, so restaurants are not exactly in a position to pass savings

Oh give me a break I haven't noticed any meaningful difference in my spending money.

 

[TRFGTYH]

If I may. Tipping should be seen as a bonus for good service. I don't expect a tip from my customers every time I interact with them, that would be a quick way to go out of business real quick. I don't mind tipping 20-25% but only if the service has been really good. And I don't have crazy high expectations either. I'll tip 20%+ if any of the following occur:

1. Hairdresser - remove any errant hairs growing out of my ears or nose. I'll tip even more if they don't ask but just do it. I'm not sure why, but I feel the person is a professional if they deduce that no-one would seriously want hair growing out of their ears so they might as well remove it. Small things like that are a big thing to me.
2. Hairdresser - After I get my buzz cut, if you spend extra time and effort during the shampoo stage so I don't get hairs falling down the back of my neck. Again, I'll tip more if I don't have to point this out.
3. Waiter - Smile as you approach me and make sure it's genuine. If you look like you're trying to hold in the worlds biggest fart, I'm going to be pretty insulted. If you don't like serving people with a smile, maybe you should do something else for a career.
4. Waiter - If I come to the restaurant during lunch with colleagues and I tell you politely that we're a little rushed for time, that means I want to be in and out in 1 hour or less. If you bring the bill right after delivering the food, that's an automatic 20%. If you process the credit card less than 5 minutes after delivering the bill, that's an automatic 30%. You have to cater for your audience .. if you get a bunch of guys in suits telling you they are stretched for time and you acknowledge it, you've made their life a lot easier = more appreciation = bigger tip.
5. Waiter - This is very important to me. I understand you have to ask periodically if everything is OK. If you are professional enough to time this during a time when the table isn't well into a conversation, you'll get a bigger tip. It's annoying when you ask me if everything is OK and I have a mouthful of food or it's clear I'm in the middle of a private conversation.
6. Waiter - Don't be a robot. I find myself giving larger tips to waiters who act jovial and normal rather than uptight. This is especially important if you work in an upscale restaurant, don't be snooty. Be classy but don't look down on your customers.
7. Waiter - If I show up with a nicely dressed lady, don't stick us on a table in the middle of the floor. It's clear we're on a date and would like a booth for privacy. If you direct us to a booth without me asking, I will remember it.
8. Waiter - Know your menu. If I ask you what kind of oil you use and you look at me like I've asked you to describe formats last theorem, I'm not going to be impressed. And by the way, I'm asking for a very specific reason, not just because I want to put you on the spot. As a professional in the food industry, this shouldn't be a total shock.
9. I edited this post to slip this one in. Waiter - If I'm with a female, don't get all flirty because I will have to pay for it as soon as you leave - even if I ignore you and don't respond to anything. If you're a guy and you start getting flirty, I'm going to go from being flattered to freaked out in 60 picoseconds.

Tipping, for me, isn't a science but depends on a variety of factors - the main one being professional. If you're a professional, you're competent which means you know your job very well and are good at it. No matter what industry you work in, those attributes mean you deliver great service - service that should be recognized accordingly.

BTW, the biggest tip I ever gave was in BlueZoo in Disney world, Florida. I couldn't figure out what I wanted from the menu so the waiter sat down and asked me what I like (group of 20 business folks). I told him I liked:

Mashed potatoes
Salmon
Peas
Roasted potatoes
Tomatoes

This guy takes everyone's order and brings me back a little of everything but it was all very well proportioned. I couldn't have asked for anything better. After adding 20% to the overall bill (our company policy when expensing food), I gave him another $200.

 

[elwoodinontario]

Listen asshole. Serving is not a low-skilled job. I would like to see you give the service that I provide to my customers. Serving is one of the most difficult jobs out there to master. I worked in IT for years, hated it, but find that getting back into the restaurant business, it's quite challenging but also more rewarding for me. I work in fine dining and tip out 6% of what assholes like you tip me. That means if you tip me $10 on $100, i make $4. You're probably one of those jerk offs that raises your hand to get served, asks for extra FREE bread and chews with your mouth open.

You are so fucking ignorant! Have you ever worked as a server before? You think that eating at Moxies is the same as eating at McDonalds? You think that you get the same service at Wendy's drive thru as you do at Milestones? Wake up, fuckwit. I use Moxies and Milestones as an example because although the food is shit, those girls work their asses off to make enough money to get through college without having to strip or escort. I work in a far superior restaurant than the ones I mentioned and you get a far superior experience because of that which means I should be tipped accordingly. 20% is expected. 15% is acceptable (as long as you tip on the final amount, not before tax, because guess what? I tip out on tax!), 10% is a slap in the face. That's like saying, "you did the bare minimum for me".

Tipping is a North American reality. Get used to it.

I have a very fun job in an exciting industry. I get to work with hot girls every day. I get to flirt with them, and occasionally have them rub their tits across my back as they pass me in the narrow server station. I also probably make more money than you do for less work. I also don't have to claim a large percentage of what I make on my taxes which means if I was making a 6 figure salary, I would take home the same amount of money as I do right now. I also only work 30 hours a week instead of the standard 40 to 45.

Sounds to me like you're jealous because you're too old, fat and ugly to work in a business that requires you to speak to people face to face everyday and make shit loads of money for such a "low-skilled" line of work. If you don't like tipping, move to England or Australia. Then you'll just be pissed off that the servers over there get paid $25/hour for such a low-skilled job. Go fuck yourself, retard. Good day

How about telling us where you work? Gotta add that place to my avoid list.