You managed to completely miss my point. You can't compare athletes in any age from one to the next, only in how they have dominated in their time. Jack's rivals weren't "greater", they were simply closer to him in how they could challenge him at that moment in time. I don't think there is anyone who can seriously challenge Tiger, which is why I likened him to Ali. Sports are far better when one has a decent competitor. Tiger has moved his game up a level yet again in my opinion. I don't see anyone out there who can match him.hak said:
When Tiger is running on the green, no one can chase him!
- Thread starter dorf
- Start date
Re: Tiger being the greatest athlete of all time
I don't think ANY golfer could ever be described as the greatest athlete of all time as the sport is not physically demanding enough. Debating whether Tiger is the athlete who dominated his sport the most would be a better discussion.
I would say somebody like Bo Jackson was a greater athlete than Tiger. He played as a top star at the highest level of leagues in two sports. That shows him being able to do much more with his physical talents, i.e. versatility, than just hit a golf ball. He displayed power, speed, agility, eye-hand co-ordination, ability to absorb physical punishment and endurance.
As far as golfers go Tiger is definitely athletic but the list of attributes needed to excel at his sport are limited.
I don't think ANY golfer could ever be described as the greatest athlete of all time as the sport is not physically demanding enough. Debating whether Tiger is the athlete who dominated his sport the most would be a better discussion.
I would say somebody like Bo Jackson was a greater athlete than Tiger. He played as a top star at the highest level of leagues in two sports. That shows him being able to do much more with his physical talents, i.e. versatility, than just hit a golf ball. He displayed power, speed, agility, eye-hand co-ordination, ability to absorb physical punishment and endurance.
As far as golfers go Tiger is definitely athletic but the list of attributes needed to excel at his sport are limited.
I disagree with your statement bigtime. Have you ever played golf ? Have you played it at a competive level ? Golf is not just about swinging at the fuckin ball. A recreational golfer like me knows what it takes, but I just don't have the time to get to the top level. To improve one's score, there's a whole lotta shit involved. Go ahead and play golf and discover what it takes.shack said:
Ta.hak said:
It is better on average, largely due to his three blow-out wins in the Majors. What's interesting is that Jack finished runner-up in Majors more times than he won. Tiger I believe has finished runner-up two times. When he's on and within reach of the top in Major competition, much more likely than not, he's gonna beat you.hak said:
I play about 70 rounds a year (I figured "GOD" would know better than to make stupid assumptions) and I know it's difficult to do well. It's very demanding and a high level of skill is needed. Having athletic abilities helps one to play at a higher level, however there is no way in the world "athletes" like Tim Herron, Craig Stadler, Phil Mickelson, who compete at the highest level of their sport could play at the highest levels of others such as NHL hockey or be in the decathlon or to be a world class soccer player to name a few. Golf requires skill and being athletic helps but you do NOT have to be an athlete to be a good golfer. You HAVE to be athletic to play many other sports.Yahweh said:
Go ahead and use your brain and discover what it's like.
I think it comes down to the age old debate...
...of the definition of "athleteic" versus "talented".
I have known people who were very athletic, and in fantasic shape (aerobic conditioning, low body fat %) who could not have competed on the world stage at ANY sport.
And, as you clearly pointed out, there are people who are probably less fit that then average joe (I'll trade you Phil Mickelson for John Daly) but clearly are amongst the best in the world (top 200?) at what they do.
And then of course there is that third element - skill.
My own personal definition...not necessarily right...has always been that things like hand - eye coordination, timing, imagination, touch...are "talent". These things stay with you regardless of your physical condition (assuming you are still healthy). Steve Kerr could probably still drain 3 pointers from heaven today, years after leaving the NBA because he has a "talent" for it...he could shoot and hit shots until his legs gave out from exhaustion. What he would NOT be able to do anymore is get open in an NBA game to TAKE the shot....but hand him a basketball in an empty gym and it is swish all day...
"Athletic" is a combination of physical attributes that can be improved with training (speed, strength, agility, aerobic capacity), but is also influenced greatly by genetics, as you a limited at the high end by what God gave you. Hence, even if someone is in supreme shape, and perhaps even the best athlete at his school, he still may not be world class....he doesn't have that last 1%.
Then there is "skill"...skill is an reflection of what you are able to execute based on your own personal combination of "talent" and "athletism", as honed through practice. Hitting a golf shot or a jump shot is a skill...and you can come to do it well with practice...but to do it on a world class level you have to posses talent...all the practice in the world will not get you there. At the same time...if there is no practice you will not execute well either, no matter how talented you are.
Golf is a game of skill that relies primarily on talent as refined by practice. I could practice just as much and as hard as Vijay Singh...I will still never be good enough to join the tour. On the other hand, I suspect Vijay could have spent as much time as I did in my youth in a gym and on a practice field, and still never make the cut of a D-I NCAA football team.
Tiger is a unique and special player because he combines all of these elements at a very high level, along with a tremendous drive and mental game. It is universally agreed that he is the most talented man in golf...the question is only by how much (Phil is also very, very gifted). However, it is also universally agreed that he is one of the hardest working guys in golf, second perhaps to only Vijay. Lastly, in addition to without question being the most fit man in golf, he is also perhaps golfs best athlete. Michael Jordan responded to a comment that Tiger could play in the NBA by saying that was unlikely...but he probably could have played D-I NCAA basketball as a point guard at a non elite school and done well had he focused on basketball versus golf. There might not be a single other guy on the tour who can say that...
The result of this amazing mixure...the best player in the world at his game, and perhaps the best player in the world at ANY game. But that still doesn't make him the best "athlete", by the definition I think you are using.
shack said:
...of the definition of "athleteic" versus "talented".
I have known people who were very athletic, and in fantasic shape (aerobic conditioning, low body fat %) who could not have competed on the world stage at ANY sport.
And, as you clearly pointed out, there are people who are probably less fit that then average joe (I'll trade you Phil Mickelson for John Daly) but clearly are amongst the best in the world (top 200?) at what they do.
And then of course there is that third element - skill.
My own personal definition...not necessarily right...has always been that things like hand - eye coordination, timing, imagination, touch...are "talent". These things stay with you regardless of your physical condition (assuming you are still healthy). Steve Kerr could probably still drain 3 pointers from heaven today, years after leaving the NBA because he has a "talent" for it...he could shoot and hit shots until his legs gave out from exhaustion. What he would NOT be able to do anymore is get open in an NBA game to TAKE the shot....but hand him a basketball in an empty gym and it is swish all day...
"Athletic" is a combination of physical attributes that can be improved with training (speed, strength, agility, aerobic capacity), but is also influenced greatly by genetics, as you a limited at the high end by what God gave you. Hence, even if someone is in supreme shape, and perhaps even the best athlete at his school, he still may not be world class....he doesn't have that last 1%.
Then there is "skill"...skill is an reflection of what you are able to execute based on your own personal combination of "talent" and "athletism", as honed through practice. Hitting a golf shot or a jump shot is a skill...and you can come to do it well with practice...but to do it on a world class level you have to posses talent...all the practice in the world will not get you there. At the same time...if there is no practice you will not execute well either, no matter how talented you are.
Golf is a game of skill that relies primarily on talent as refined by practice. I could practice just as much and as hard as Vijay Singh...I will still never be good enough to join the tour. On the other hand, I suspect Vijay could have spent as much time as I did in my youth in a gym and on a practice field, and still never make the cut of a D-I NCAA football team.
Tiger is a unique and special player because he combines all of these elements at a very high level, along with a tremendous drive and mental game. It is universally agreed that he is the most talented man in golf...the question is only by how much (Phil is also very, very gifted). However, it is also universally agreed that he is one of the hardest working guys in golf, second perhaps to only Vijay. Lastly, in addition to without question being the most fit man in golf, he is also perhaps golfs best athlete. Michael Jordan responded to a comment that Tiger could play in the NBA by saying that was unlikely...but he probably could have played D-I NCAA basketball as a point guard at a non elite school and done well had he focused on basketball versus golf. There might not be a single other guy on the tour who can say that...
The result of this amazing mixure...the best player in the world at his game, and perhaps the best player in the world at ANY game. But that still doesn't make him the best "athlete", by the definition I think you are using.
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Interesting dissertation MLAM. Well thought out and articulated.
Personally, I think there's only a very fine line between talent and skill but the main point is that they are definitely each much different than athleticism, which was my point. Golf, by its' nature, does not require athleticism. It requires skill/talent honed by practice. Having athleticism can augment the skill/talent required to excell, but it is not essential. Therefore, since that athleticism is not routinely on display during a round of golf it would be hard to ever say that a golfer is the best athlete in the world, unless of course he was world class in some other athletically demanding sport as well. (Jordan and Gretzky are golfers.
)
Having said that a case could definitely be made for Tiger being the most dominating athlete in his sport.
Personally, I think there's only a very fine line between talent and skill but the main point is that they are definitely each much different than athleticism, which was my point. Golf, by its' nature, does not require athleticism. It requires skill/talent honed by practice. Having athleticism can augment the skill/talent required to excell, but it is not essential. Therefore, since that athleticism is not routinely on display during a round of golf it would be hard to ever say that a golfer is the best athlete in the world, unless of course he was world class in some other athletically demanding sport as well. (Jordan and Gretzky are golfers.
)Having said that a case could definitely be made for Tiger being the most dominating athlete in his sport.
The line gets blurred when we discuss Gretzky as a great athlete.
Gretzky was no more then slightly above average in speed and agility, and lacked strength... your typically "athletic" qualities.
Yet it is his skills / talents. that made him so great.
Yet we are ready to call Gretzky one of the greatest athletes ever, when his "athletic" qualities are average. At the end of the day yes he plays in an athletic sport, but it is his skill and talents that make him a great sportsman... like a golfer.
Gretzky was no more then slightly above average in speed and agility, and lacked strength... your typically "athletic" qualities.
Yet it is his skills / talents. that made him so great.
Yet we are ready to call Gretzky one of the greatest athletes ever, when his "athletic" qualities are average. At the end of the day yes he plays in an athletic sport, but it is his skill and talents that make him a great sportsman... like a golfer.
Sure it does!!!
It gives us an excuse to be away from home (or at least watch the wife roll her eyes and leave the room) while we drink to excess...
You ARE a man, aren't you???
"The best athlete of all time is argument that just doesn't make sense to argue"guyroch said:
It gives us an excuse to be away from home (or at least watch the wife roll her eyes and leave the room) while we drink to excess...
You ARE a man, aren't you???
Maybe I'll do some pondering/research and come up with 10 names for a poll. I'd have to consider multisport stars to demonstrate all round athleticism, not just in one discipline. Also, maybe another one for most dominant in their sport.MLAM said:
Meanwhile, back on the links. Tiger played like crap yesterday at Bridgestone, fell back by 6 strokes after being in a tie, and made a bunch of bad shots today. It took a playoff but he still won, now four straight. This man is becoming scary good once again, even when he is off his game.
Make you sure include a female... Babe Didrickson.shack said:
An all american in college basketball.
One of the top baseball players in her era, when there were women's ball leagues.
Won Olympic medals in track and field.
One of the greatest women golfers ever.
Yeah...
...he is on roll again...like 2000. That "I refuse to lose" place that only the absolute greatest athletes have been to...except that place is not supposed to exist in golf.
Since he missed the cut at the U.S. Open and got pissed off at himself, he has finished 2nd at the Western Open, won the British, won the Buick Open, Won the PGA Championship and now won a WGC event. That is two majors and 3 events with pretty damn strong fields.
That previous paragraph is a CAREER for guys outside of the top 50 on the tour, and he has done it in just about 2 months. Unreal....
Asterix said:
...he is on roll again...like 2000. That "I refuse to lose" place that only the absolute greatest athletes have been to...except that place is not supposed to exist in golf.
Since he missed the cut at the U.S. Open and got pissed off at himself, he has finished 2nd at the Western Open, won the British, won the Buick Open, Won the PGA Championship and now won a WGC event. That is two majors and 3 events with pretty damn strong fields.
That previous paragraph is a CAREER for guys outside of the top 50 on the tour, and he has done it in just about 2 months. Unreal....
Look, Tiger can win at will and its all fixed whenever he does lose, and when you get a playoff like today theyve already told the 'loser' look, Tiger let you into this thing by playing like shit.....so in the end you gotta give it to him - DONT win on the playoff.....kinda like that putt to win it that the guy lost tosday vs. woods in the playoff.....
