What's wrong with the educational system today?

[wetnose]

Interesting comments....

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080829.wcowent30/BNStory/specialComment


1.
John Mueller from Milton, Ontario, Canada writes: As I near retirement I've been teaching on contract for one of the community colleges. Seeing first-hand the end product of the secondary school system is certainly an eye-opener for me! I see 18/19 yr-olds who can't add fractions (e.g., what's 1-3/8" 1/2"?), calculate the area of a circle, or write a coherent paragraph. Forget basic physics, chemistry, or simple Canadian history knowledge. It is as if they never even went to secondary school! And the problem of not knowing how to deal with a deadline or the concept of failure is quite shocking. After 33-yrs in industry it seems that we college instructors are the last line of defence before these people hit the real world. The key problem, in my opinion, is the skewed view of the world that is propagated by a school system where very few of the administrators or teachers have ever worked out side of the educational system. Unfortunately I don't believe that it is all that different at the universities (I've been working on a degree part-time too and see the performance of the students and professors in this environment too.) Kids, go to a college and learn from experienced instructors about how the real world works _before_ you find out the hard way that your first boss won’t put up with this BS.
* Posted 30/08/08 at 3:34 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
3.
Veronica L from Canada writes: I teach English at a college, and my experience with first year students is very similar to John Mueller's. Students who can't write a complete sentence are horrified when they get Fs and invariably tell me that they got As in high school. Students who have been warned repeatedly that if they don't show up for a test they will get not get another chance to make it up skip it anyway and are shocked when they get zeros. (One girl ran crying from my office, telling she was going to talk to the "principal"). Students who have had the consequences of plagiarism explained to them nevertheless still hand in copied work and are angry when told that they are going to be reported. Thanks in part to the poor preparation they received in high school, many of these students (up to one third of a class sometimes) will flunk out.
* Posted 30/08/08 at 4:57 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
8.
Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: Do you mind if I print this out? I keep telling my friends that their kids are quite clearly stupid, but they keep insisting that they do well in school. Finally, I can point out that doing well in school has nothing to do with intelligence. In fact, doing well in school has pretty much nothing to do with reality.

No wonder kids these days keep living with their parents for years. They don't understand that holding down a job means showing up and doing your work!

* Posted 30/08/08 at 8:09 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
9.
Paul Wallnutz from Ontario, Canada writes: John Mueller, from Milton writes: "After 33-yrs in industry it seems that we college instructors are the last line of defence before these people hit the real world. The key problem, in my opinion, is the skewed view of the world that is propagated by a school system where very few of the administrators or teachers have ever worked out side of the educational system. Unfortunately I don't believe that it is all that different at the universities..."

John, you are bang on there. I've working in engineering project management and we see the problems our new-grad engineers. I agree that the university professors and all school educators should have to spend a few years in the real world where they would realize how this sort of no-failure and no-deadline world isn't reality.
* Posted 30/08/08 at 8:59 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
11.
D. Armstrong from London, Canada writes: As a former teacher - who quit teaching after ten years of watching these sorts of problems - let me just say that much of this reflects the type of society that Canada has evolved into. Nobody wants to be the 'bad guy' anymore. There are no meaningful consequences for bad behaviour in elementary or secondary school and, in many places the worst kids are effectively running the school! This has become worse because boards of education hire administrators who will not rock the boat. Superintendents are more interested in being 'politically correct' than they are in fighting with idiotic parents who, of course, have raised undiscipliined children. The key point here is that there are many great, potential vice-principals and principals in any school system - but they would rock the boat too much if they were hired. Rocking the boat, in this case, would mean setting limits, enforcing the rules, and sticking to their guns! As such, few really good vice-principals get hired. It's not about teachers getting more 'real world' experience. It's about recognizing the good ones and promoting them. Not so ironically, most teachers love their students; and so not all of them are very well qualified for administration as they are incapable of being the 'bad guy'. We need to do three things. First, educational theorists and superintendents must supply-teach so that they do not become completely dissociated from the 'real world' of the school. Second, we need to hire the right type of vice-principal in the first place. As well, most schools need at least one more V.P. than they actually have. Right now, there are far too many problems in most schools - and not enough V.P.s to chase everyone down. Finally, we need a debate on what should constitute effective discipline in our schools. A province-wide, enforcable code of conduct, clearly spelling out consequences for poor behaviour etc. would go a long way toward helping maintain acceptable standards.
14.
w b from Canada writes: Hello,
I would like to touch on two things noted above. First, I have been teaching for about 6 years at the high school level. This slow decrease in holding students responsible has been hard to handle. It is true that students now can show up when they want, hand in poor work, no work, skip classes, tests, and make everything up later. All the students know this (some even have it planned out).
Teachers in my area are starting to voice their concern. I have seen kids graduate who can not spell, do math, read, etc.... If the kids fail they go to Credit Recovery, or do Online courses, or, and another or, which means nothing.

This is scary due to those who are "getting A's" are not getting what used to be an "A". I have been just blown away with how many of our "A" students who can not write, reference, etc...go to university and pass?
It is a double whammy - High school Diploma means nothing, - A University Degree - will be our new high school diploma.
Everyone will soon need a masters or PhD to prove their worth.
* Posted 30/08/08 at 10:41 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
19.
K M from Ottawa, Canada writes: Has anyone ever read the short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.? If not, I would highly recommend it.

The tendency in Ontario, if not Canada as a whole, seems to be to move toward "equality". A fine, noble ideal: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights," to quote the 1941 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But somewhere along the line, we have confused equality of "dignity and rights" with equality of ability and a right to success.

The hard, uncomfortable, truth is that we are not all equal. Some excel at sports, others at mathmatics or English. Still others are gifted leaders or teachers. But no matter the level of success a person achieves in his field of study, there are other areas IN WHICH HE HAS FAILED. The ability to overcome difficulty, disappointment and disillusionment is the true mesure of a man, not academic success.

By not allowing today's children to experience this aspect of life out of a misguided fear of "harming their psyche", we are eroding the character of tomorrow's leaders. We are leaving our children and our children's children to face the world of Harrison Bergeron, in which the exceptional or gifted person is shackled with artificial "handicaps" to "equalize" them and bring them down to the level of the average man.

This practice has already been used, unconsciously, in Ontario Public School for at least a decade. The problem is silent, insidious and seemingly innocuous. But if no one is allowed to excel, progress slows, then ceases altogether. New technologies are not invented; old ones fall into disuse. No cures are found for devastating diseases; no progress is made in treatment. Gradually, society regresses to the point that today's lifestyle seems no more than a pipe dream. The old people, who still remember Western society in the early days of its decline, lament,

"Why were we never allowed to fail?"
* Posted 30/08/08 at 11:13 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

 

[Moraff]

Certainly saw signs of this when I attended Mac.

- typed up a paper for a guy who started a new sentence and paragraph each time he started a new page.

- students who had no clue how to study/take and exam because they'd always been exempted in high school.

 

[james t kirk]

Bah, Never mind the school system, I see it in the work force.

I know I'm soundling like an old coot, but young males today are a lazy lot. It's been 20 years since I came out of school, but something has changed big time.

On another note, I have a good friend who is a High School English Teacher and she complains about kids writing crap and then thinking they deserve an A. The kids are well aware that they need good marks to get into University so they tend to badger the teachers for higher marks.

There is a website called www.ratemyteacher.com and I looked her and a few others up and it's funny what the kids are saying about her, They rate their teachers on how easy they are, helpfulness, and clarity.

Here's what one little genius wrote about her, "shes a good teacher u learn a lot in her class but her demands r too high n she duzn't appreciate ur work 4 what it is..u give her a hand she wants an arm n a leg too"

 

[Tarkus]

Bah, Never mind the school system, I see it in the work force.

I know I'm soundling like an old coot, but young males today are a lazy lot. It's been 20 years since I came out of school, but something has changed big time.

It is the standard that we see everywhere now. Stupidity or more specifically lack of intellect reigns supreme in today's culture. Obama and Gore are chastized for being 'too smart' and thus an elite? CNN puts together a panel of 8 experts for a topic and that segment will be five minutes long thus allowing each person to be 'in-depth' for a whole 30 seconds, (got to leave a minute for Wolf Blitzer to ask the repetitive and shallow question), and all you receive are mini sound bites. Out of desperation a percentage of US university intellectuals now admit that they get the majority of their political news from The Daily Show and Colberte Report simply because they feel network news glosses over major topics.

People don't vote. They don't take an interest in events beyond their own immediate situation. Adults don't care to investigate anything anymore, (consider this board where you see responses in terms of simplistic racial epitaphs or apologists who insist that no one understands anything unless they are part of that group or geographic so let's just be safe, aka stupid, and don't question).

Like it or not we have allowed our society to be dumbed down and while we may not use the actual term we have created the "whatever" response. Never in the history of humanity has so much information been readily available and as if almost in response never has the majority of humanity gone to such extents to avoid it.

And then we wonder why little Johnnie can't spell or add.

 

[C Dick]

Isn't it an unavoidable consequence of success, that people will get stupid and lazy? When life was a daily struggle to survive, people had to work hard and stay aware. But as society gets richer and richer, what is the motivation for people to work hard? Some people are hard workers by nature, I think that just as many are today as in the past. But a lot of people go with the flow. If there was a general belief in society that you had to work or perish, they would work. But now there is so much wealth and opportunity, that even if you don't work, you will be ok. Everyone wants their kids to be hard workers, but they also do not want them to starve if they are not. The dumbing down in school and elsewhere just reflects the fact that people want their kids to be happy, even if they are lazy. Either we have to change direction, and demand that are kids suffer when they don't have to (which is not going to happen), or we have to accept lazy children as the price of a wealthy society. I try and look on the bright side, it will be easier for my kids to compete and win, because the competition is so slack. If only my kids were not so slack also.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Interesting insights, C Dick. How's that saying go, rags to riches to rags in 3 generations, something like that......?

 

[alexmst]

Interesting insights, C Dick. How's that saying go, rags to riches to rags in 3 generations, something like that......?

The one I heard was "My great grandfather worked 6 days a week in the mines so my grandfather could go to medical school. My grandfather worked 5 days a week as a doctor at his practice so my father could get an MBA and work 4 days a week as an investment banker, so I in turn could work part time at Starbucks as a barista 'finding myself' and hanging out with my friends playing x-box." I owe my happiness to my ancestors...without them I wouldn't be so happy."

 

[alexmst]

Wetnose, there is a funny movie called "Art School Confidential" in which freshman year the students submit a work to be graded. We see the protagonist go to pick up his grade, and he gets an "A" and is happy. He looks at other peoples work and sees they also got "A" grades. In fact, EVERY student got an "A" grade...the rationale being that the teachers didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. The movie was sarcastic, but mainly becasue there was some truth in it.

 

[CapitalGuy]

The one I heard was "My great grandfather worked 6 days a week in the mines so my grandfather could go to medical school. My grandfather worked 5 days a week as a doctor at his practice so my father could get an MBA and work 4 days a week as an investment banker, so I in turn could work part time at Starbucks as a barista 'finding myself' and hanging out with my friends playing x-box." I owe my happiness to my ancestors...without them I wouldn't be so happy."

Same idea. The problem is that the barista's kids are fucked. No example of a solid work ethic in the home (often) means the kids aren't self-motivated and don't work hard. And that barista's salary isn't going to pay for much post-secondary education, or provide the children culture and rounding. So the barista's kids, if they are lucky enough to get on full time with a major company, will work 6 days a week in the mines, so to speak..........

 

[Ref]

The educational system has become lazy, not the students. As hard as it may be for teaching masters to accept, the students are a reflection of their teaching.

To take this statement a step further and into more relevant terms, look at the managers in your workplace. Chances are their subordinates will reflect the style of their manager. Students or subordinates are followers, and look up to teachers/developers/managers for direction and leadership – Thus the common quote “Lead By Example” is quite significant in the context of this thread.

Many years ago when I was in the high school system there were teachers who could teach (Leaders), and there were teachers who followed the curriculum to collect a pay cheque (Coasters). Somewhere along the line, the Coasters have outnumbered the Leaders. It’s too bad. I can still remember the teaching masters from my high school and post secondary schooling that were true leaders – People who motivated, inspired and drove you to take it to the next level. On the other hand I can remember the teachers who mailed it in and to be honest, my marks under their tutelage were a reflection on their style.

Perhaps we need to take a long hard look at the education system we have. Personally I would like to abolish the high school system (Grades 9 – 12) as it is right now. I would rather have two high school years where teaching masters could identify the talents of students and channel them in the appropriate direction. Grades 11 and 12 could be replaced by a College like system where students could be trained in their identified skill sets – Trades, medical, administrative, service, etc. This would prepare students for real jobs and address a soon to be concern for businesses in North America – A lack of young talent.

Aside from my views on the educational system, there is one other aspect that people tend to overlook – Parental responsibility. A new born child is a student from the day of their birth at home. Maybe parents should take the bull by the horns to ensure that their children are ready and able to face the world before them. We can teach them to walk, we should teach them to talk.

 

[Tarkus]

The educational system has become lazy, not the students. As hard as it may be for teaching masters to accept, the students are a reflection of their teaching.

To take this statement a step further and into more relevant terms, look at the managers in your workplace. Chances are their subordinates will reflect the style of their manager. Students or subordinates are followers, and look up to teachers/developers/managers for direction and leadership – Thus the common quote “Lead By Example” is quite significant in the context of this thread.

Certainly one of our problems is that unlike the US Canada was embarrassed into fixing teacher pay levels in the 1960's which in turn led to some rather inane increases due to the Municipal School Boards having the right to increase tax rates at their whim without any accountability, oversight, or for that matter an elected body to even veto any increases. In turn the profession has become, for a union job with a minimum of 3 months of vacation a year and depending on your work ethic potentially a 'short day', a rather well payed position. This has led to a number of 'coasters' as you indicate in your post. I would expect a higher percentage than before simply due to the fact that for some lifestyles this is a perfect job, albeit except for all that annoying in the class interacting with the students stuff.

So yes I would agree that there is a function of the teachers not always doing what they should but I would tend to disagree that this is the primary cause. Education and knowledge used to be valued in of themselves and not merely as a vehicle to obtain a job to maintain a specific lifestyle demand. Did the teachers 25 years ago face the competition of message as they do today? The message that being disrespectful is cool. That knowledge and debate are a waste of time because all you need to know is just a click away from you?

We hear that plagiarism is much more common now than it was and why should we be surprised? The educational institutions almost to a tee demand that essays be submitted in word processor format. Why the shock that a student thinks "I'll just copy and paste this little bit?" Just another example of the education system being challenged by outside factors.

How can you talk of leadership, education or intellect when the demonstrated principle of the US nomination process suggests that being 'too smart' is a bad thing? When rap music pervades the message that going to school and becoming educated is somehow selling out?

While no doubt the educators play a role the dialectic of the cultural impact I fear is far more persuasive in undermining the process.

 

[gabeti]

This is sad and it will definitely have more and more negative consequences.

 

[tired old perv]

See what happens when you let Liberals run your province and your country?

Why should we punish little Sally for spelling the word cat, kat? She may develop a complex for being punished, and not become a worthy member of society. So lets let her and the others, do whatever they want, reward them all equally, boost their self esteem, and send them into the workforce.

You wanted it you got it....................FOOLS!

There needs to be standards that kids measure up to. If they don't make it they fail, simple as that. So it hurts their self esteem. Tough shit. Life sucks and then ya die.

Life is about equally of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

 

[Questor]

oh god where to even begin...

traditional school seems more about teaching kids what to think instead of how to think.

kids are so curious, have such a thirst to learn and instead of nurturing and supporting it we cram them into little desks shove a boring curriculum down their throats. we bore them out of their minds , train them to do what they are told, impose our opinions of what is important, teach them to strive for grades and approval...

doesnt seem to be working so well.

Very good point celest. Readers of this thread may be interested in a discussion in the politics forum: https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=203881

The thread begins with a youtube video of George Carlin who is talking about problems with the education system and how it is by design producing citizen`s lacking in critical thinking skills. Its purpose is to produce unthinking and compliant workers and consumers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw

 

[LordLoki]

Parents who refuse to accept their kids failing are right up there.

 

[Dewalt]

The people who scream the loudest are usually the ones that took advantage of the school system back in the day. I am sure most of the people here complaining about the education system are the ones that will brag the loudest about being "the worst student EVER - we cut so many classes to race cars that teachers didn't know what to do with us!" blah blah blah

Allow me to entertain you with this quote from Aristotle:

"Education is an ornament in prosperity and a refuge in adversity"

Education is a personal journey where an individual grows at their own pace. At times that pace may not be up to the same speed that people like employers or universities need. This is ok, the world needs ditch diggers too.

The education system we have today in ontario is a direct result of the spending cuts made by the Harris government over a decade ago. No more social programs, no more after school sports, none of those "frivolities" that help people grow as individuals. Nope, education today is about making kids into widgets and compliant members of society.

If you want to see what the best that education can do - look at India. They currently have 10 schools the equivalent of MIT and their middle class is exceeding Canada's. Another 10 yrs and we will be the ones manufacturing t-shirts for their country. The government has no concept of how badly our own education system needs proper funding. But then again isn't the government run by the "Coasters"?

 

[dj1470]

Unfortunately our school system is a direct result of the Canadian liberal welfare state. Students don't feel the pressure to succeed here in Canada anymore. There are no consequences anymore. Dewalt stated about India succeeding - correct most students in India feel enourmous pressure to succeed since if they don't there is no net to catch them. Pressure is a good thing. Unfortunately, Canadian students know that they will be bailed out if they fail - so why even bother trying?

P.S. blaming teachers is stupid. Teachers spend maybe a grand total of 10 min a day in elementary and 1-2 min a day in secondary with each individual student. Classes with over 35 in highschool. The MOE promised to cap elementary classes at 20 a few years ago and that has not happened. Let us all remember that parents are the primary educational givers for their children. If you as a parent are relying on schools to teach your child then you are lost. You might as well let the TV and video games raise your child as well.

 

[Keebler Elf]

"Sudbury Valley School is a place where people decide for themselves how to spend their days. Here, students of all ages determine what they will do, as well as when, how, and where they will do it. This freedom is at the heart of the school; it belongs to the students as their right, not to be violated.

Yeah, that's what we need.

More kids who think they're entitled to whatever their little hearts desire because it's their "freedom".

Lack of structure and discipline is what's killing kids today, not lack of freedom.

The point of being a parent is to raise your child. Not give them complete freedom to be able to do whatever they want. Raising your child means instilling values and responsibilities in them. Instilling. Not giving them the freedom to opt out. If you can't handle the responsibilities of being a parent, then do the fucking world a favour and don't have children who will end up being irresponsible like you.

That sounds like a real nutbar school.

 

[LordLoki]

...
traditional school seems more about teaching kids what to think instead of how to think.
...
sudbury valley school has some pretty interesting concepts, read a book about them some years ago and i think its fascinating. wish i went to a school like this!

"

The fundamental question really is "What is education for". It cannot be all things to all people. I do know that the handful of people we hired from that type of school were fired within a few months. They displayed an utter lack of basic skills and were unwilling to actually complete tasks.

What is interesting to you as a teenager is seldom what you need to get and keep a job. I do have a friend whose son went to one of those schools. He has drifted from Mac-Job to Mac-Job and will never be able to own a home or live beyond a hand to mouth life style.

On the other hand are school responsible for teaching life skills that will serve people well for the rest of their lives? If so what the heck are those skills? Until we know what they are sort of a waste trying to teach them.

Are schools fun places to hang out till you leave home? If they are then anything goes.

By the way I went to a Montessori school. I blame them it for my spelling.

 

[Questor]

The education system we have today in ontario is a direct result of the spending cuts made by the Harris government over a decade ago. No more social programs, no more after school sports, none of those "frivolities" that help people grow as individuals. Nope, education today is about making kids into widgets and compliant members of society.

Give this man a cigar! You are right on the money Dewalt.

P.S. blaming teachers is stupid. Teachers spend maybe a grand total of 10 min a day in elementary and 1-2 min a day in secondary with each individual student. Classes with over 35 in highschool. The MOE promised to cap elementary classes at 20 a few years ago and that has not happened. Let us all remember that parents are the primary educational givers for their children. If you as a parent are relying on schools to teach your child then you are lost. You might as well let the TV and video games raise your child as well.

Very well said dj. Teachers are not given the resources to properly educate. Our schools are education factories. And many parents have no time to be very involved in their kids' education. They are often too busy chasing other priorities. Social conventions teach us to structure our lives to accumulate toys and consume, consume, consume.

The fundamental question really is "What is education for". It cannot be all things to all people. I do know that the handful of people we hired from that type of school were fired within a few months. They displayed an utter lack of basic skills and were unwilling to actually complete tasks.

What is interesting to you as a teenager is seldom what you need to get and keep a job. I do have a friend whose son went to one of those schools. He has drifted from Mac-Job to Mac-Job and will never be able to own a home or live beyond a hand to mouth life style.

On the other hand are school responsible for teaching life skills that will serve people well for the rest of their lives? If so what the heck are those skills? Until we know what they are sort of a waste trying to teach them.

Are schools fun places to hang out till you leave home? If they are then anything goes.

By the way I went to a Montessori school. I blame them it for my spelling.

Now we are getting to the very core of the issue! The schools are not meant to teach critical thinking. They are meant to churn out compliant little consumers and workers. Of course once the question of what we want the schools to do, then we must address what structure the school must have in order to accomplish this.