Legitimacy is not a black or white question. It is a gradient. I would prefer that the party that governs this country has the MAXIMUM legitimacy. That way protest and discord in our society will be minimized. When people feel the "other guys" won and they are not represented by the party in power, protest is their only avenue. It is disruptive and can be costly. If a majority had a stake in the government they would support it more. Those opposed to it would have a weaker platform to protest. It would simply be better for our country IMHO.
What do you think of Bridgette DePape's protest
- Thread starter nottyboi
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The Maximum idea is a real pipe dream. Even in Proportional systems a large number of runner up candidates can get elected. Is that a Maximum solution? Mind you, it's a whole lot better than the 'Taxpayers Only' system, suggested by one member earlier.Legitimacy is not a black or white question. It is a gradient. I would prefer that the party that governs this country has the MAXIMUM legitimacy. That way protest and discord in our society will be minimized. When people feel the "other guys" won and they are not represented by the party in power, protest is their only avenue. It is disruptive and can be costly. If a majority had a stake in the government they would support it more. Those opposed to it would have a weaker platform to protest. It would simply be better for our country IMHO.
Talking about left wing kooks... here's a perfect example of their tactics... cloud the issue with bullshit. When you have nothing to say, revert to personal attacks. But if you're going to resort to these types of attacks, at least be a little smarter about it. You attack me because I don't know netboi? How dumb is that? It's like if i called you a "red headed faggot", your rebuttal would be... "You don't know what you're talking about. I don't have red hair."Nottyboi, a left wing kook? You are certifiably out of your mind. You've just showing how much you don't know and simply spout shite. Notyboi has his flaws and can and has been called many things, but that is not one of them. You haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about. pleas return to the rock you crawled out from under.
Grow up blackrock.
Blackrock... once again you show how slow you really are... you argue with me by making my points for me. I do remember the conservative romp in 84. But being left with 40 seats and still being the official opposition is a little different than having only 34 seats and losing official opposition status. And you are correct, after two terms of conservative rule, the PC party was wiped off the map. And what happened to them? They disappeared!! They were absorbed by the Reformers. That's exactly what is going to happen to the Liberals... they will be absorbed by the more left wing NDP. Thank you, Blackrock for making my points for me.Left of center is one thing, but that doesn't make him left wing. He has mellowed lately. It must be age catching up to him. Even the Liberals are left of center a great deal of time, relative to the rest of the world. Our whole country is considered left of center, giving rise to our political systems definition.
It will be interesting what the Conservatives take on eliminating the party funding,when they are on the short end of the stick. This will come back and bite them bad.
As far as the Liberal party being on his death bed, I wonder how old Nightie is, because he seems to have forgotten the Conservatives back in 1984(?) taking 211 seat and leaving the Liberals with 40 seats. Then what happened in the not too distance future, after 2 terms of Conservative rule, they were almost completely wiped off the electoral map with TWO seats and a Liberal majority government. I'll repeat that for the slow people in the audience TWO seats.
Nightie might not be old enough to remember Prime Minister Deifenbaker's similar fall from gracefrom a '58 maority to a thumping fall in '63, infantile amnesia being what it is, but Deif'' lost almost 60% of his seats held after the first election and they went, no surprise, to no one to the Liberals who won a majority.
Interesting that I was describing much larger Conservative Party defeats.
Nightie's ignorance is gaining Woodie status.
Just a quick tutorial on debating... when you debate, you take a stand on an issue that is different from your opponent and then you try to discredit his/her points, not substantiate them.
Yes this is an interesting situation within the CPOC and we'll see how it turns out. There is merit in both approaches. But I have to say that I think it is more interesting how the Liberals have picked their last two leaders. Both Ignatieff and now Rae were elected leaders of their party by a handful of old Liberal party men who met over dinner. Not such a big deal with Rae, because he is only temporary, but Ignatieff was chosen to lead the party in a federal election. Can you imagine if he had won?! The leader of this country would have effectively been chosen by a handful of Liberals!! That is insane!!More laughing matters: We note the CPOC is, even as we speak, embroiled in an electoral reform controversy at their convention. Should they switch to one member one vote, or stick to the equal votes for each riding system they have now. Harpo's Reform Rumpers want the every 'member's vote counts equally [PR]' version; McKay's Progressive-Con Rump wants to stick to the FPTP system, where smaller ridings don't get swamped by huge ones.
Electoral reform always looks attractive when it benefits you; we'll see if Harpo's zeal to make things fair, by making every person's vote equal, extends to the system that put him in power with less than 40% of the votes. My riding elected Layton. The Liberal runner-up got enough votes to have been the unanimous choice in a big PEI, or northern Saskatchewan riding. Variations are way too big to be fair; the proposed adjustments are not only a decade overdue but piddling and half-hearted.
And, like Harpo's proposed Senate elections, they do not accomplish 'one citizen, one eqal vote'. Then there's PR which does.
Thanks for agreeing with me again, Blackrock. It is a pipe dream. This is why I laugh at those left wing kooks who, because they have been out of power for so long, are now trying to change the electoral system on the basis of "60% of voters voted against this government".The Maximum idea is a real pipe dream. Even in Proportional systems a large number of runner up candidates can get elected. Is that a Maximum solution? Mind you, it's a whole lot better than the 'Taxpayers Only' system, suggested by one member earlier.
You know, blackrock, you really should be nicer to me. We really do think alike. You just don't know it yet.
This is how our system of government has always worked. In fact, a majority government with 50%+ of the popular vote is the exception rather than the rule (Mulroney was the last one to achieve this, IIRC). Stop Harper? Well, then stop Martin, Chretien.. hell, stop Sir John A Macdonald!39.62% of Canadians voted for Harper. 60.38% voted against him. This was her point. While Harper has the seats to do what he wants, he does not have the popular support. She is 100% correct that Canada is NOT a conservative country by nature. Our election system is IMHO not democratic as it does not deliver a government that is representative of the peoples wishes.
Not so fast Nightie, I said what Nottyboi wanted was a dream, but for you to refer to him as a left wing Kook, was also way out to lunch and you did so out of Woodie type reflex/reflux and ignorance of the TERB members. There so so many things that have to be taken care of before we touch the electoral system. I think if the people who don't vote get out and vote instead of bitching about the system a more representative government could be had. Much of the Conservative win was based on their masterful campaign and the Liberal total failure, not the system. Elizabeth May's campaign in BC this time around shows that well run campaign can be won by a virtual independent, as have others in the recent past. Our multi-party system allows for those small victories.Thanks for agreeing with me again, Blackrock. It is a pipe dream. This is why I laugh at those left wing kooks who, because they have been out of power for so long, are now trying to change the electoral system on the basis of "60% of voters voted against this government".
You know, blackrock, you really should be nicer to me. We really do think alike. You just don't know it yet.
You proclaimed the death of the Liberals when history has shown the opposite is true on more than one occasion, even rising out of more a drastic and exhibit your ignorance of recent Canadian political history. the Conservative went from a majority position to near oblivion, but didn't fade away, but needed along tome to regain their previous glory. The Liberals have been the dominant Federal party in Canadian politics since the birth of this great country and isn't going anywhere soon. It's either ignorance or selective memory.
I don't need to grow anything. You make totally wrong statements about members based on absolutely no knowledge of them or their stance. Even other members see it and comment. So it's not just me. As I said, Nottyboi is not one of your left wing kooks.; which is what you claimed. Do you know FUJI? It's not a personal 'attack', or as some members love to observe an ad hominem attack, when it's true. If someone being a jerk and he is called a jerk, it's not an ad hominem attack. You right about the red head attack and it shows you don't pay much attention on TERB. My follicle-challenged scalp has been discussed a few times.Talking about left wing kooks... here's a perfect example of their tactics... cloud the issue with bullshit. When you have nothing to say, revert to personal attacks. But if you're going to resort to these types of attacks, at least be a little smarter about it. You attack me because I don't know netboi? How dumb is that? It's like if i called you a "red headed faggot", your rebuttal would be... "You don't know what you're talking about. I don't have red hair."
Grow up blackrock.
No I would not want a proportional system, but a first past the post system. Some countries make you pick a 1st and 2nd choice. The top 2 candidates get to divy up the 2nd choice votes for the eliminated candidates. I think that would work well here and also tend to deliver majority govts.The Maximum idea is a real pipe dream. Even in Proportional systems a large number of runner up candidates can get elected. Is that a Maximum solution? Mind you, it's a whole lot better than the 'Taxpayers Only' system, suggested by one member earlier.
Sometimes I think you just say shit for the sake of saying shit. You just ramble and ramble without addressing the issue being discussed. Voter apathy? Where is that coming from? Do you really think that voter apathy would change the proportion of votes for one party or another? Oh... let me guess... you're thinking that the conservatives won because they were better able to get their voters out. But in PR, wouldn't the Liberals still need to get their vote out? Voter apathy is a red herring in the electoral system discussion. The Liberals lost the last election because they had a leader that was selected by the old Liberal men in a back room and they had no vision for the country. FPTP or PR, the Liberals would have lost under any of these electoral systems.Not so fast Nightie, I said what Nottyboi wanted was a dream, but for you to refer to him as a left wing Kook, was also way out to lunch and you did so out of Woodie type reflex/reflux and ignorance of the TERB members. There so so many things that have to be taken care of before we touch the electoral system. I think if the people who don't vote get out and vote instead of bitching about the system a more representative government could be had. Much of the Conservative win was based on their masterful campaign and the Liberal total failure, not the system. Elizabeth May's campaign in BC this time around shows that well run campaign can be won by a virtual independent, as have others in the recent past. Our multi-party system allows for those small victories.
You proclaimed the death of the Liberals when history has shown the opposite is true on more than one occasion, even rising out of more a drastic and exhibit your ignorance of recent Canadian political history. the Conservative went from a majority position to near oblivion, but didn't fade away, but needed along tome to regain their previous glory. The Liberals have been the dominant Federal party in Canadian politics since the birth of this great country and isn't going anywhere soon. It's either ignorance or selective memory.
The conservatives did not fade away?? Are you kidding me? The Progressive Conservative party no longer exists!! How much more faded away can you get than "disappeared"? It has been replaced by the Conservative Party of Canada which is the new name for The Reform party. The same thing will happen to the Liberals. The left will unite after the next election because it will be starving for power. The left will not see power again until it unites. The right understood this quickly and that's why the PC party (or what was left of it) merged with (or was taken over by) the Reformers.
Over this next term, the NDP will pander to Quebec in order to solidify its base in that province. The Liberal party will become more and more irrelevant. They will run in one more election, but it will be their last. There is just no room in the political spectrum for them. The Conservatives are centrist/right and the NDP is centrist/left. Where do the Liberals fit?
That's a possibility, but it still means that people second choice might carry the day.No I would not want a proportional system, but a first past the post system. Some countries make you pick a 1st and 2nd choice. The top 2 candidates get to divy up the 2nd choice votes for the eliminated candidates. I think that would work well here and also tend to deliver majority govts.
Don't kid yourself with what's happening in Ottawa this weekend, the PC's might be reconstituted because of a very long lived rift between the old Reform and the old PC's. The fact that the Conservative are an amalgamation doesn't means the PC's don't exist. The party has had a number of different names in the last 150 years. A name is just that, but the PC temperament and basic beliefs still boils away and may rise if Harper base instincts go in overload.Sometimes I think you just say shit for the sake of saying shit. You just ramble and ramble without addressing the issue being discussed. Voter apathy? Where is that coming from? Do you really think that voter apathy would change the proportion of votes for one party or another? Oh... let me guess... you're thinking that the conservatives won because they were better able to get their voters out. But in PR, wouldn't the Liberals still need to get their vote out? Voter apathy is a red herring in the electoral system discussion. The Liberals lost the last election because they had a leader that was selected by the old Liberal men in a back room and they had no vision for the country. FPTP or PR, the Liberals would have lost under any of these electoral systems.
The conservatives did not fade away?? Are you kidding me? The Progressive Conservative party no longer exists!! How much more faded away can you get than "disappeared"? It has been replaced by the Conservative Party of Canada which is the new name for The Reform party. The same thing will happen to the Liberals. The left will unite after the next election because it will be starving for power. The left will not see power again until it unites. The right understood this quickly and that's why the PC party (or what was left of it) merged with (or was taken over by) the Reformers.
Over this next term, the NDP will pander to Quebec in order to solidify its base in that province. The Liberal party will become more and more irrelevant. They will run in one more election, but it will be their last. There is just no room in the political spectrum for them. The Conservatives are centrist/right and the NDP is centrist/left. Where do the Liberals fit?
The Reformers didn't take anyone over, it was a joining and as long as Peter McKay, as much as I don't like him, is around the resurrection is still a good possibility. With what Harper has already done in the east, in the last 30 days, he needs McKay and company to carry the whip out there. The core Reformers are still hard ass cowboys and it doesn't carry well in the rest of the country. It's not a marriage of love, but a marriage of mutual convenience but t can dissolve in a flash. The Conservative will hurt for a long tie in N&L and will have a difficult time holding on to the rest if they continue on the path they have chosen. It certainly isn't written in concrete.
There may still be some old PC sentiment in the new CPOC, but don't kid yourself, there is no power there. Today's CPOC is the Reform Party of old. Steven Harper rose through the Reform ranks. It may be hard to see the old reform because the last two minority governments have forced Harper to put a lid on some of their more extreme policies, but don't kid yourself, today's CPOC is the Reform party of old. The old Progressive Conservatives are gone.Don't kid yourself with what's happening in Ottawa this weekend, the PC's might be reconstituted because of a very long lived rift between the old Reform and the old PC's. The fact that the Conservative are an amalgamation doesn't means the PC's don't exist. The party has had a number of different names in the last 150 years. A name is just that, but the PC temperament and basic beliefs still boils away and may rise if Harper base instincts go in overload.
The Reformers didn't take anyone over, it was a joining and as long as Peter McKay, as much as I don't like him, is around the resurrection is still a good possibility. With what Harper has already done in the east, in the last 30 days, he needs McKay and company to carry the whip out there. The core Reformers are still hard ass cowboys and it doesn't carry well in the rest of the country. It's not a marriage of love, but a marriage of mutual convenience but t can dissolve in a flash. The Conservative will hurt for a long tie in N&L and will have a difficult time holding on to the rest if they continue on the path they have chosen. It certainly isn't written in concrete.
It's not quite the reform party of old. It's a slightly more practical, less idealistic reform party, but plainly it is the reform party in spirit.
I the ndp and liberals merge it well be forced further left still.
Harper likes to claim canada is moving right but the c's moved left and with the ndp's dramatic rise it's more like canada is moving left. The c's moved left into some of the space the liberals used to occupy and the ndp moved right.
I the ndp and liberals merge it well be forced further left still.
Harper likes to claim canada is moving right but the c's moved left and with the ndp's dramatic rise it's more like canada is moving left. The c's moved left into some of the space the liberals used to occupy and the ndp moved right.
You're correct in that it is not the Reform party of old, but that's because it has been a minority government. Let's see what happens over the next 4 years. But I suspect they will not become to radical in their right wing policies because they will want to be re-elected.It's not quite the reform party of old. It's a slightly more practical, less idealistic reform party, but plainly it is the reform party in spirit.
I the ndp and liberals merge it well be forced further left still.
Harper likes to claim canada is moving right but the c's moved left and with the ndp's dramatic rise it's more like canada is moving left. The c's moved left into some of the space the liberals used to occupy and the ndp moved right.
I don't believe Canada is moving left. The NDP was elected only because of Quebec's tribal voting patterns. They vote as one unit. This time, they decided that the Bloc had no role to play at the federal level, and the liberals had no vision for the country, so they voted NDP. It was really only Quebec that moved left, it you can call it that. Quebec has always been left of centre.
The reason they selected the NDP is because Jack is from la Belle Province , no other reason for it.You're correct in that it is not the Reform party of old, but that's because it has been a minority government. Let's see what happens over the next 4 years. But I suspect they will not become to radical in their right wing policies because they will want to be re-elected.
I don't believe Canada is moving left. The NDP was elected only because of Quebec's tribal voting patterns. They vote as one unit. This time, they decided that the Bloc had no role to play at the federal level, and the liberals had no vision for the country, so they voted NDP. It was really only Quebec that moved left, it you can call it that. Quebec has always been left of centre.
Actually the BQ and the NDP platforms aren't that different . The fact that Jack is a native son is just a bonusThe reason they selected the NDP is because Jack is from la Belle Province , no other reason for it.
Not really, the first choice votes all count for the top 2 candidates... only the eliminated candidates 2nd choice votes add up. Yes it is possible say the NDP 2nd vote would be liberal...and that would carry the Lib candidate to victory... BUT it would still mean the candidate that wins is more representative of the political spectrum of the riding.That's a possibility, but it still means that people second choice might carry the day.
Strange math
Can we get something straight here, our country has 3 parties, NONE of the parties that LOST, got more than 40% of the vote.
The conservatives got MORE votes than any of the other parties.
Lumping the 2 other parties together is ridiculous.
The kid probably hasn't WORKED a day in her life.
FAST
When have Canadians ever been offered a different system? Most Canadians have no idea Harper got only 40% of the vote. Her protest is an attempt to start the debate and highlight the fact that Harper DOES NOT really have the mandate he claims to have.
Can we get something straight here, our country has 3 parties, NONE of the parties that LOST, got more than 40% of the vote.
The conservatives got MORE votes than any of the other parties.
Lumping the 2 other parties together is ridiculous.
The kid probably hasn't WORKED a day in her life.
FAST
