We are out of luck with Americans this year

[E_B_Samaritano]

See that's one thing I don't get. The French said that they weren't willing to go to war at the present time. The Germans said that they would not go to war under any circumstances. Yet, dispite this, the French are the ones taking the flak. If anyone should be getting slagged over this, it should be the Germans.

Personally, I don't think any country should be taking flak over this issue as they are all independent countries and can do as they please.

Well,

I think you need to understand the depth of the French opposition. They essentially told us they would not support "further action" regardless. In other words they telegraphed to Saddam Hussein the fact that the "coalition" was unwilling to back up their demands. This is the reason why I laugh at Canada when they talk about diplomacy. They know neither diplomacy or foreign policy of their own. Theres is one derived by hiding behind common consensus of a do nothing world community. But look at the record. The Germanys, the Frances and the Russia's...all of these countries were really concerned with financial interests..the same rap that is alledged against the US..YET only the US is excoritated. So the question comes full circle. How is it that the MORAL Superpower, CANADA, can sit idlly by while a dictator does as he wishes with regards to murdering and subjugating his own people. I mean before, it was the US sanctions killing all these Iraqis, how horrible. Then we choose to do something about it, and all the focus is on whether or not there are WMDs...where is the HUMANITY. Ideologues are so blinded by their hatred of AMERICA, that the left has forgotten about HUMANITY. WE have/had an opportunity to make things right for the people in Iraq. The US chose to do so, depspite the fact that CANADA was MORALLY vacous on the issue. Why? You folks up North have lost your moral compass and hence your right to criticize anything.

As for 9/11, the only nation the US respects is Great Britain. While you were busy wringing your hands and telling us how we deserved what we got, the British fleet had already set sail from Portsmouth. I'll take a Brit over a Canadian any day. They are real allies,l not cover your ass opportuniists. You can evacuate your traffic cops from Afghanistan any time you want. When we need fighting troops, we klnow where to get them. Our 10k are in the field actively looking for Al Queada. Your 900 are there looking to gain recognition for showing up after the fact, somehting btw they are very good at doing. As the worlds only superpower, our phone rings when trouble breaks out. Does yours?

You see, as inflammatory as these statements are, they need to be made. I detest George Bush, I do not believe the invasion of Iraq was justified on the WMD issue, however, I do believe that the situation in Iraq can and will be improved for the betterment of the individuals on the ground, REGARDLESS to whether Haliburton or FINA makes Billions of dollars. At this point, the invasion already history, my position is that I'm praying for the best interrest of the people, not the worst interest of the invading/occuppying superpower so that they will be taught a lesson. Get over it people. You fucked up by not being on the right side of the question. Now if you look in the mirror, you have to be cheering on terrorist in order to hope that the US mission fails. As a democrat and a person who has never and will never vote for the right side of the isle, I am ashamed of the far left.



EBS

 

[train]

As for 9/11, the only nation the US respects is Great Britain. While you were busy wringing your hands and telling us how we deserved what we got, the British fleet had already set sail from Portsmouth. I'll take a Brit over a Canadian any day.

EBS

EBS , while I value your opinions on SP's , sometimes you can be quite the ass . On political subjects , I hate to break this to you but few really care what you have to say or have the stamina to actually read all of it .

 

[Trelew]

Well,

I think you need to understand the depth of the French opposition. They essentially told us they would not support "further action" regardless. In other words they telegraphed to Saddam Hussein the fact that the "coalition" was unwilling to back up their demands. This is the reason why I laugh at Canada when they talk about diplomacy. They know neither diplomacy or foreign policy of their own. Theres is one derived by hiding behind common consensus of a do nothing world community. But look at the record. The Germanys, the Frances and the Russia's...all of these countries were really concerned with financial interests..the same rap that is alledged against the US..YET only the US is excoritated. So the question comes full circle. How is it that the MORAL Superpower, CANADA, can sit idlly by while a dictator does as he wishes with regards to murdering and subjugating his own people. I mean before, it was the US sanctions killing all these Iraqis, how horrible. Then we choose to do something about it, and all the focus is on whether or not there are WMDs...where is the HUMANITY. Ideologues are so blinded by their hatred of AMERICA, that the left has forgotten about HUMANITY. WE have/had an opportunity to make things right for the people in Iraq. The US chose to do so, depspite the fact that CANADA was MORALLY vacous on the issue. Why? You folks up North have lost your moral compass and hence your right to criticize anything.

As for 9/11, the only nation the US respects is Great Britain. While you were busy wringing your hands and telling us how we deserved what we got, the British fleet had already set sail from Portsmouth. I'll take a Brit over a Canadian any day. They are real allies,l not cover your ass opportuniists. You can evacuate your traffic cops from Afghanistan any time you want. When we need fighting troops, we klnow where to get them. Our 10k are in the field actively looking for Al Queada. Your 900 are there looking to gain recognition for showing up after the fact, somehting btw they are very good at doing. As the worlds only superpower, our phone rings when trouble breaks out. Does yours?

You see, as inflammatory as these statements are, they need to be made. I detest George Bush, I do not believe the invasion of Iraq was justified on the WMD issue, however, I do believe that the situation in Iraq can and will be improved for the betterment of the individuals on the ground, REGARDLESS to whether Haliburton or FINA makes Billions of dollars. At this point, the invasion already history, my position is that I'm praying for the best interrest of the people, not the worst interest of the invading/occuppying superpower so that they will be taught a lesson. Get over it people. You fucked up by not being on the right side of the question. Now if you look in the mirror, you have to be cheering on terrorist in order to hope that the US mission fails. As a democrat and a person who has never and will never vote for the right side of the isle, I am ashamed of the far left.
EBS

OK People I think I know what EBS's problem is. He completely buys the reactionionary/American superiority talk that US politicians & media constantly bombards the public with. I'm pretty sure the above quote is a paraphrase of such that I either heard or read from the US media. Basically the poor boy really has no thought process of his own other than what has been spoon-fed to him by the media. Otherwise he would have the sober second thought before posting such a stupid reply to this thread.

 

[Trelew]

The major problem with American politics, especially with its foreign policy is that it's incredibly self-serving and intrusive. Since the admittedly heinous actions of 9-11, American has taken that as its only reason to act as the moral compass for the world. (Now there's a truely scarey thought)

Personally, I'm not suprised that this kind of attack hasn't happened sooner in the States. Now before you go saying that I support such attacks...I DON'T! But as an example, the US was responsible for training these religious fanatics and their self-serving foreign policy was the cause that eventually has these US trained attack dogs turned on them. But I guess the PTB in the States don't want to learn the lessons the LIFE gives them.

BTW...EBS, Canada has never called itself a "moral superpower". It was never a position that we wanted or coveted, but if there ever was such a title, it was probably because of our long history of rendering aid to those that can't help themselves. As well as our ability to promote peace rather than the US's style of enforcing the peace.

 

[onthebottom]

?

The major problem with American politics, especially with its foreign policy is that it's incredibly self-serving and intrusive.

I think our policies are suppose to push our agenda, in that way they are self serving. Intrusive is a good point but I do think the US is playing more offense (as opposed to defense) than it used to because of 9/11. That won't change anytime soon, whoever is president.

Since the admittedly heinous actions of 9-11, American has taken that as its only reason to act as the moral compass for the world. (Now there's a truly scary thought)

Personally, I'm not suprised that this kind of attack hasn't happened sooner in the States. Now before you go saying that I support such attacks...I DON'T! But as an example, the US was responsible for training these religious fanatics and their self-serving foreign policy was the cause that eventually has these US trained attack dogs turned on them. But I guess the PTB in the States don't want to learn the lessons the LIFE gives them.

This is an asinine statement. We should have expected mass murder because of our policies, not very bright thinking there.

BTW...EBS, Canada has never called itself a "moral superpower". It was never a position that we wanted or coveted, but if there ever was such a title, it was probably because of our long history of rendering aid to those that can't help themselves. As well as our ability to promote peace rather than the US's style of enforcing the peace.

Actually it was the National Review that called Canada a "Moral Superpower" in the same issue they had the Mounties on the cover with the word "Wimps" as the headline. The point was that while Canada is an economic superpower it is not a military power so it resorts to preaching instead of action. You simply don't do your fair share of the peace keeping in the world. Think Iran and North Korea and you'll get the idea.

Great country though!

OTB

 

[djk]

<djk, you might have missed the point. BC was the closest golfbuddy of our PM JC and still is,>

So a President is measured by how many golf buddies he has?

Cheers,

-djk

 

[Aaltogropius]

[B......So a President is measured by how many golf buddies he has?

Cheers,

-djk [/B]

LOL. Not exactly. I assumed that you asked why quite a few of us posters here expressing fondness of Bill Clinton by questioning what political achievements he had during his terms. On that note I said you might have missed the point. Most of us like BC not just because he played golf with our Prime Minister often, but mainly because he respects Canada and the role she plays on the world stage, and we really are not that concerned with or interested in what he has achieved domestically in the States. In contrast, Bush does not give Canada a dime, which is fine with me because I still think we are two great countries with more in common and less in difference.

 

[DenWa]

I don't agree with the manner in which EBS somewhat harshly speaks in absolutes when regarding these pointless debates. I have noticed, however, that even when he makes a valid point it is summarily dismissed by a lot of you guys. I also find it funny that a bunch of Canadians think they're so freaking knowledgable of the U.S. - more so than we are if you read this board - which plays into the stereotype that we're all a bunch of fucking idiots down here. Bottom line - one doesn't have to choose either Canada or the U.S. over the other. Canadian hands have their share of blood on them, and the self-righteous attitude gets old.

 

[TravellingGuy]

I also find it funny that a bunch of Canadians think they're so freaking knowledgable of the U.S. - more so than we are if you read this board - which plays into the stereotype that we're all a bunch of fucking idiots down here.

I think its funny that the US is the driving power behind ridding the world of terrorists when most americans don't know anything about the world in general. In fact most people in any country do not understand other cultures and countries, yet it isn't necessary to understand them or even to like them, but we have to accept them as they are even if they are different. I would say that most of the world is more knowledgeable of the US more so than the US is knowledgeable of any other country.

Someone made comment that Canada should be more concerned about the terrorists, that we should be standing right there with the US in the fight against them, and in certain aspects I agree, but in others I do not, certain terrorists activities are targeted at the US because of the US's own actions, sorry you dug your own hole you accept the consequences. The US government's actions piss people off and they in turn take it out on the US citizens, its not the citizen's faults, except that they have no real control over their government.

The US more than any other country imposes their beliefs and their visions upon the rest of the world,not only politically or militarily but also economically and, its only a matter of time before the rest of the world starts to bite the hand that feeds it. This by no means takes away from all the good the US does in the world, but people are quick to forget the good and long to remember the bad.

 

[train]

Re: ?

The point was that while Canada is an economic superpower it is not a military power so it resorts to preaching instead of action. You simply don't do your fair share of the peace keeping in the world. Think Iran and North Korea and you'll get the idea.


OTB

Possibly true . But with a population of (in round numbers ) 30 million that would mean our fair share would be the same as what ? Maybe what Sweden and Norway are doing ? I think it might seem that we are doing less than our share because it is certainly much less than it was 50 years ago . Part of the reason is that we are NOT an economic superpower .

Other than the Iraq situation ( which I was for supporting the US at the time but will admit now that I was conned a bit ) I'm not sure that Canada would be characterized as a "preaching " nation so much as one were the conservative politicians ( small c or big C ) have lost all semblance of a voice to the bleeting of the 'superior morals' of the left-wing , ex-schoolteaching, trade-unionist , baby seal loving , fiscally-out-of-control liberal politicians . Kind of like having a group of wives at your back saying "I told you so " . I know it must be annoying , but it's not as if you listen anyway . They also don't represent the whole country .

But hey , we do have much better coffee , beer and SP's .

 

[DenWa]

I was just going to post a rebuttal to Travelling Guy's post, when I realized I was writing something I've already written, to a issue that has already been addressed. We're going round in circles, and I think maybe we should stop with these discussions, because they get us nowhere.

DW

 

[Aaltogropius]

I don't agree with the manner in which EBS somewhat harshly speaks in absolutes when regarding these pointless debates. I have noticed, however, that even when he makes a valid point it is summarily dismissed by a lot of you guys.

In all fairness, EBS's experience and information about SPs of North America in general and Montreal in particular are enormous and so is his contribution to this board, so I don't dismiss him lightly or easily unless or until it comes to something else other than SPs. Sometimes he tends to play mud-slinging with others, which, frankly speaking, does not shine his name at all.

I also find it funny that a bunch of Canadians think they're so freaking knowledgable of the U.S. - more so than we are if you read this board - which plays into the stereotype that we're all a bunch of fucking idiots down here. [B/]

As one poster said, living in your own country does not necessarily mean you automatically know more about it than those living outside it. Some Canadians may know little or nothing about Canada. Does that surprise me? Nope.

Bottom line - one doesn't have to choose either Canada or the U.S. over the other. Canadian hands have their share of blood on them, and the self-righteous attitude gets old.

Share of blood? The self-righteous attitude? Could you please elaborate a little bit?

 

[train]

I was just going to post a rebuttal to Travelling Guy's post, when I realized I was writing something I've already written, to a issue that has already been addressed. We're going round in circles, and I think maybe we should stop with these discussions, because they get us nowhere.

DW

Agreed .

 

[Aaltogropius]

Re: ?

......I think our policies are suppose to push our agenda, in that way they are self serving. Intrusive is a good point but I do think the US is playing more offense (as opposed to defense) than it used to because of 9/11. That won't change anytime soon, whoever is president.......

OTB

There is no doubt that you have the right to self-defense after 9/11, but protecting yourself does not have to become so spooky and paranoid that a great country of freedom has almost stooped to a state of police under the Patriot Act at home and to a bully abroad under the doctrine of " you are either with me or against me ".

I still remember what happened to a Canadian woman of Indian descendant on her way back after a home visit. She was stopped, searched, questioned for no any reason other than her skin color at O’Hare International Airport and the customs officer insisted her passport was fake. She asked for speaking to Canadian Consulate in Chicago, and was rejected; she asked for speaking to her employer in Toronto, and was rejected. Eventually she was refused an entry for an exchange flight and thrown onto a Kuwait Airline plane flying to India......an innocent and law-abiding citizen was treated like a would-be criminal.

In the run-up to the Iraq War, major world powers, including Canada, urged the Bush administration to get U.N. mandate to invade Iraq. Half-heartedly Bush did, giving all the bull-shit reasons and excuses why Saddam should be toppled. Once sensing that the rest of the world was not willing to buy what he was trying to sell, Bush, with right-wingers like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfwitze behind his arse, basically said to the world body: Screw yourself and I was gonna do it myself. Which is fine as long as you can hold on to it. Now almost everyday an American soldier gets killed in Iraq and the bill runs as high as 4 billion a month to just stay in there, and Americans start to question what's going on and why it's happening, Bush begins to feel the heat and to bend over begging for France, Germany, Canada, India to contribute troops. And all of them said " Thanks, no, thanks." I hated Saddam as much as most people did, but foreign policy and diplomacy are supposed be centered on persuasion and friendship is supposed to be two-way street. Not on cowboy roaming with guns pointing at all direction. Bush' megalomania is notorious, which is fine too, if you mix it with some common sense. He did give nobody a shit before the War, and then now the human loss and financial cost are too much to take, he wants anybody's and everybody's help. Can you see his problem here? When I don't need you, fuck yourself; when I need you, come ride with me on my ranch.

Arrogance and expediency will hurt America big time one day.

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: ?

Possibly true . But with a population of (in round numbers ) 30 million that would mean our fair share would be the same as what ? Maybe what Sweden and Norway are doing ? I think it might seem that we are doing less than our share because it is certainly much less than it was 50 years ago . Part of the reason is that we are NOT an economic superpower .

Other than the Iraq situation ( which I was for supporting the US at the time but will admit now that I was conned a bit ) I'm not sure that Canada would be characterized as a "preaching " nation so much as one were the conservative politicians ( small c or big C ) have lost all semblance of a voice to the bleeting of the 'superior morals' of the left-wing , ex-schoolteaching, trade-unionist , baby seal loving , fiscally-out-of-control liberal politicians . Kind of like having a group of wives at your back saying "I told you so " . I know it must be annoying , but it's not as if you listen anyway . They also don't represent the whole country .

But hey , we do have much better coffee , beer and SP's .

Don't know about the coffee but I'll agree on the beer and SP's.

Relative to other nations you are an economic power, 8th in the G8. You are a tremendously brave / courageous people who are under funding your military. I don't think that Canada is used to leading in world events, being on the right side and doing the right thing yes but not leading. It's my view (and others, like the National Review that I mentioned) that you should take your position at the front of the pack. You're half the size of France but don't punch like it, I think it's time you did.

Now the fact that your government is full of pinko liberals with French accents is a bit alarming but hey, all the canuks I know like Hockey, beer and girls - how great is that.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: ?

There is no doubt that you have the right to self-defense after 9/11, but protecting yourself does not have to become so spooky and paranoid that a great country of freedom has almost stooped to a state of police under the Patriot Act at home and to a bully abroad under the doctrine of " you are either with me or against me ".

You've been watching too much television. It does not feel like a police state down here. I think the US is having a healthy debate at the moment about the Patriot Act and the balance between personal freedom and privacy and the need for security. As with most issues down here we are quite capable of striking our own balance, but thanks for the opinion.

I still remember what happened to a Canadian woman of Indian descendant .....

In the run-up to the Iraq War, major world powers, including Canada, urged the Bush administration to get U.N. mandate to invade Iraq. Half-heartedly Bush did, giving all the bull-shit reasons and excuses why Saddam should be toppled. Once sensing that the rest of the world was not willing to buy what he was trying to sell, Bush, with right-wingers like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfwitze behind his arse, basically said to the world body: Screw yourself and I was gonna do it myself. Which is fine as long as you can hold on to it. Now almost everyday an American soldier gets killed in Iraq and the bill runs as high as 4 billion a month to just stay in there, and Americans start to question what's going on and why it's happening, Bush begins to feel the heat and to bend over begging for France, Germany, Canada, India to contribute troops. And all of them said " Thanks, no, thanks." I hated Saddam as much as most people did, but foreign policy and diplomacy are supposed be centered on persuasion and friendship is supposed to be two-way street. Not on cowboy roaming with guns pointing at all direction. Bush' megalomania is notorious, which is fine too, if you mix it with some common sense. He did give nobody a shit before the War, and then now the human loss and financial cost are too much to take, he wants anybody's and everybody's help. Can you see his problem here? When I don't need you, fuck yourself; when I need you, come ride with me on my ranch.

Arrogance and expediency will hurt America big time one day.

It was not a halfhearted effort to get UN Security Council backing for the enforcement of UN Security Council resolutions. Many US allies did not support the war in Iraq, countries like Canada, Mexico expressed their opinion and followed their own policy. I think there is a general view here that France and Germany went out of their way to: gain domestic political points by "standing up to the US" (Germany) and favor a counter balance to US power (France).

I don't think the US has begged anyone to do anything. While the human cost in Iraq is tragic and senseless it's not terribly high. The UN bombing shows just how desperate and despicable these forces are. It would be hard to get an invite to the ranch if you have a French accent, Canadian or Parisian.

OTB

 

[Medic]

to paraphrase:

When you sacrifice freedom for security you eventually end up with neither.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[DenWa]

To paraphrase, he who goes to bed with itchy butt wakes up with smelly finger.

 

[Aaltogropius]

Re: Re: Re: ?

You've been watching too much television. It does not feel like a police state down here. I think the US is having a healthy debate at the moment about the Patriot Act and the balance between personal freedom and privacy and the need for security. As with most issues down here we are quite capable of striking our own balance, but thanks for the opinion.

It was not a halfhearted effort to get UN Security Council backing for the enforcement of UN Security Council resolutions. Many US allies did not support the war in Iraq, countries like Canada, Mexico expressed their opinion and followed their own policy. I think there is a general view here that France and Germany went out of their way to: gain domestic political points by "standing up to the US" (Germany) and favor a counter balance to US power (France).

I don't think the US has begged anyone to do anything. While the human cost in Iraq is tragic and senseless it's not terribly high. The UN bombing shows just how desperate and despicable these forces are. It would be hard to get an invite to the ranch if you have a French accent, Canadian or Parisian.

OTB

The TV I watch is mostly American. If you blame your TV for my opinion, then I suppose you shoulf thank your cable TV stations. The example I gave you about the Canadian woman and many many other cases of civil liberty being abused since 9/11 indicate that the balance you try to strike still tips towards security side.

Here is anothe most recent case in point:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...0819/ap_on_re_us/nj_peacemaker_pastor_fines_1


Bush was never sincere in going to UN; he did go because he needed a cover; and the cover he failed to get simply because he didn't have consistent and convincing reasons why Saddam should be toppled (first, Saddam had WMD, then Saddam regime was a brutal one, finally Saddam was teamed up with Bin Laden, then again Saddam had WMD...going in circle---which one?). Keep in mind that Germany, France, and Canada were behind US during the 1st Gulf War. This time around, they did not want to go along. Why? You can argue Germany had internal reasons and France had external ones. So what? The bottomline is that both are democratic countries and the German and the French did not like war and their leaders responded to their constituency. Anything wrong with that? Plus, American diplomacy leading to the War was a lousy failure.

I hate to see Americans bear all the human loss and finacial cost in Iraq because that's not fair. Then again, you have nobody but Bush to blame.

 

[onthebottom]

LOL

to paraphrase:

When you sacrifice freedom for security you eventually end up with neither.

Thomas Jefferson

Isn't he the guy who penned the US Declaration of Independence ("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness......") and died with 300 slaves?

It's perhaps not that simple and black and white (sorry for the pun). People have a right to their privacy and freedom, but they also have a right to feel and be secure. It is the responsibility of our government to do everything in their power to provide this security.

OTB