Warning to all owners of 96 and up GM 3800 V6 engines

[james t kirk]

If you are knowledgeable with what is being repaired on your Malibu, you shouldn't even come close to that in extra maintenance vs. the Accord. As well, 6 or 7 G's would have put you into a completely different GM car than a Malibu.

Poorboy, with all due respect, are you serious?

My car is a Buick Park Avenue. It rolled off the lot new for a bottom line price of $45,000. freaking dollars. This is the top end buick and it is a piece of shit.

The K type motor is the same whether it is in a 45k park avenue, a 35 k lesabre or Grand Prix, or a 25k Impala, or whatever else they put it in.

Money spent has NOTHING to do with quality here.

tbill was smart to buy a malibu for less because he essentially has the same shit quality that my 45k Park Avenue has.

James,

Are they going to replace your plastic intake manifold with an aluminium one? I hope they don’t just replace it with another plastic one. I believe I got a similar problem in my car as well. On my last oil change, my mechanic told me I have a small leak from the intake manifold. My GM car is relatively new. I hope it is under the car warranty.

Answer - NO....

They are sticking with plastic. If you have the problem, and you catch it, they merely put a new identical part back on your car.

At the current time, GM is in full denial mode. They are offering me 800 bucks for my $5,000 problem.

You have been given a heads up by your mechanic. Speaking from experience, I strongly urge you to deal with this problem NOW before it gets worse and you loose your engine like i did. In my case, there was no warning. I had the car serviced less than 1000 km and 2 weeks before it failed, including an emissions test. There was no waring, just my engine seizing up and a very large bill.

Since i had the new engine installed in mid october, my driver's side heated seat has failed completely

Another dash light has burned out

My air conditioning compressor is making periodic noises

And now my new used engine is hesitating when i give it the gas. Needless to say, it will be at the dealer on monday since it has a 90 day warrenty.

What a fucking piece of Buick shit.

I can not begin to tell you what a fucking useless, overpriced, poorly engineered, poorly built piece of shit this car is.

Is it not the intake manifold "gasket" that is the problem with your vehicles, not the manifold itself? Thats what I saw on tv last week (Auto Talk). I've never seen any manifolds which were actually made of plastic. Good luck with your vehicles guys.

No....

It's the intake manifold itself.

What is happening is that the plastic warps, or in my case cracks into the water jacket.

When the plastic warps, and or creeps (creep is like stretching over time, even concrete creeps) the seal between the flange of the manifold and the gasket itself is broken. This problem can be corrected by replacing the gasket with a new one which essentially is not squeezed down. The new gasket at least temporarily takes up the gap.

The problem is the plastic manifold itself. It's a black plastic piece that sits right on top of your engine. You can't see it unless you remove the fuel injector sight shield, i.e. usless plastic engine cover.


I know that this gets said about every car manufacturer, but I will never ever buy GM again. I think tonight i have resolved to get rid of this piece of shit and buy a nice reliable german or japanese car. In either case, without a plastic intake manifold.

 

[cliff]

A very interesting thread

I have a 99 buick lesabre with a 3.8 in it.

The warranty expired because i went over my mileage limit.

At about 100,000 km, i had the exact same problem that kirk is describing.

The car was taken to the dealer and the problem was that the oil had mixed with the water and my engine had to be entirely replaced.

I yelled at the service dept, but they just didn't seem to give a shit. (The car is actually a company car, blah blah blah)

They told me that the car hadn't been maintained because i had not been changing the oil ever 5,000 km WITH THEM.

I do change the oil, maybe not every 5,000 km, but for sure before it reaches 10,000 km and i generally just whip into the nearest quickie lube place, but I always get the upgraded oil.

I told them i didn't see how changing the oil would cause this problem and they swore up and down, yes, it did.

I remember talking to the mechanic and he told me that this is a problem with GM's nowdays and to take it up with GM and that if i was persistant enough, they would cough up.

I remember him talking about the fact that the water had leaked out of the intake manifold, but he didn't say how, or why.

It would appear that I have my answer.

It would seem logical to me that GM should recall this part since obviously lots of people are having the same problem with it.

I had no idea that Ford had similar problems.

One thing is for sure though, they never offered me 800 bucks and my bill was around 7 grand for a NEW engine.

3 year old cars shouldn't need new engines.

Piece of shit.

GM is truly building crap these days, no wonder they have lost market share from 50% of the mid sized car market to around 30% today.

 

[Bill the Pirate]

upper intake

the cost to do the upper and lower intake gaskets on these engines are .......... approx $ 400.00, and that includes doing the thermostat and gaskets, and new anti freeze.

 

[Bill the Pirate]

alexa's gtp

One of the most overlooked, maintenace things on your gtp is a simple as a tire rotation, the tires on your gtp are about 196.00 each. Most dealers do not rotate the tires when you follow your maintenance schedule. When that tire is not rotated your average life expectancy is only about 45-50,000 kms. If the are rotated you will get easily 80,000. Alexa if your want more info pm me.... good luck

 

[james t kirk]

Re: upper intake

the cost to do the upper and lower intake gaskets on these engines are .......... approx $ 400.00, and that includes doing the thermostat and gaskets, and new anti freeze.

Try $1,800.00 (not including taxes) at the dealer there friend. PM me a fax number and i will fax you the quote from the dealer.

I have the written quote from my dealer when he originally thought just my gaskets were gone.

The parts alone are $400.00 (Both gaskets, dexcool, sealer, thread lock, platinum plugs, thermostat, gasket for that, I have receipts.)

The new plastic intake manifold, just the part, is $545.00 not including taxes.

Dealers charge $89.95 an hour.

The neighbourhood mechanic charges $60 to $70.

Here's where to write:

Michael Grimaldi
President
General Motors Canada
1908 Colonel Sam Drive
Oshawa, Ontario
L1H-8P7


You can not change upper and lower gaskets for $400.00 bucks.

 

[Bill the Pirate]

400.

good god man, the upper and lower gasket set is, $110.00, the thermostat $ 28.95, labour is $324.00 so you are correct . I made an adding error its about $ 500.00 plus taxes of course. You do not need to do the spark plugs to correct this problem ( they should have been done at 80,000 ) either way it sucks. I don't reccomend corner garages but if you do not want to go the dealer use a company like Goodyear or Midas or Speedy, they are all nationaly linked with good warrantys and are backed by their respective corporations, which means that if you have a problem at least you have another level of customer support. Most of these places charge around 75.00 per hour.

 

[james t kirk]

PM me your fax number i will send you the written quote showing a price of $1,819 from the dealer to change upper and lower gaskets.

NO JOKE.

The dealer wrote, "coolant mixing with oil through upper / lower inake manifold gaskets. To repair will require replacing gaskets; coolant system flush; replace platinum spark plugs; internal engine service and oil change"



GM Part No. Description Cost

17113137 Top Gasket Kit $68.37
24506986 Thermostat $14.30
24502433 Gasket $ 3.30
12568387 Spark Plugs $100.02
10953472 Sealer $24.75
1234593 Compound $18.65
12537197 Lower Gasket Kit $49.61
10953464 Coolant $38.76

Parts subtotal $317.76

Taxes $47.66

Total Parts $365.42


Now add add in the labour, which they quoted me at 12 hours.

Add a flush and fill

Add an oil change

And add "internal engine service", whatever that is.

Total from the dealer $1,819.00 not including any taxes.

But if you can fix it for $500.00 I will bring it to you.

I am not bullshitting you.

This is how GM works.

 

[poorboy]

James,

The problems you are experiencing with your car are indeed unfortunate. Looks like you got a lemon. As far as your dash light goes, chances are it is a General Electric or Sylvania 194 glass base bulb. It is a 99 cent part. It's not really GM's fault per se that the bulb burnt out. It happens. As far as the electric seat goes, I can't tell you what the problem is.

Most Park Aves were supercharged. I figure less than 30% weren't, but I don't have any data to back this up.

I've been reading Car and Driver for over 15 years, and the most undependable cars have been Porsches and BMW's in thier long term tests.

The reason people don't complain about problems to the extent as other cars is due to perception. People who buy these cars tend to think they are buying a formula 1 derived car, so they expect more problems, which is wrong. A high performance car uses more or less the same parts as a regular car. A Corvette is not a whole lot more complicated parts wise than some other cars out there. Usually its just packaging that makes the car hard to work on.

If people percieve that a car is more dependable, they begin to believe it, even though they may experience the same number of problems as other people. I certainly can't say the Honda's my family has owned have been any more dependable, and the parts are certainly a hell of a lot more, so they are not cheaper to repair. They certainly rust alot faster too. If I wasn't handy, I'd have to get the timing belt changed at 100,000 kms, which would cost $600 to $800. But that is considered regular maintenance, so people don't seem to complain about that.

I have no bias towards any manufacturer. All have good cars and bad cars in thier lineup. By voting with your feet James, you are letting GM know you are unhappy.

You may want to try a Toyota or Lexus. They are above average in dependability, but not cheap.

Canada is the only place in the world where Honda has more market share than Toyota, and both manufacturs have less than 10% market share in Europe, where there are cars alot less dependable than our domestics.

Good luck James.

 

[james t kirk]

thanks poorboy.

The dash lights are soldered in believe it or not. I wish they were 194's. That would be smart.

I tried sourcing the bulbs at GM.

No way Jose.

If you want lights in your heater control head, you have to replace the entire head.

Cost - $850.00 just for the part.

I figure that there is some electronics supply store who will have them.

Still a pain in the ass.

And you are right, the car is a lemon.

 

[crocket]

domestic vs. honda

There is not much difference in the big three car makers (gm, ford, chrysler) in my opinion. Most of their engine components are made in the same factories, meaning that your GM car does not necessarily have an engine made in a GM plant. Your GM part is made side by side a chrysler and a ford part also. The major difference between brand names, vehicle style, engine design, and cost.
Honda is the only car maker that actually makes its own engines thus, producing a high quality engine. This is a big difference between domestics and honda's. Someone mentioned on here that honda/Acura engines do not have enough torque/hp, but I will have to disagree with that statement. A 4-cyl engine is smaller, but they are built to rev high, which will give you more than enough power. It is actually a higher level of engineering than the domestic brands. I would love to see a chrysler rev like a honda and not blow a head gasket!! Any auto maker can put a v-6 or a v-8 engine into their car to make it have alot of power, it has been done for generations. Now the question is why can honda achieve this with a 4-cyl, and GM still relies on 6-cyl engines?

 

[poorboy]

James,

Is that automatic climate control unit the same as used in a 1997 and up Buick Regal? If it is, let me know. I know how to fix it using just soldier! The info is on www.regalgs.org how to section.

Crocket,

To the best of my knowledge GM, Ford and Chrysler do not share engines and they are cast by their own factories. You might be thinking about the partnerships they have with the japenese subsidiaries they own. For example, Ford owns a part of Mazda, so the Escape and Tribute share components. GM owns a share of Isuzu, so their Duramax Diesel is Isuzu designed.

The Big three share just about everything else besides engines, just like the Japanese. Borg Warner (GER) transmissions are in both the Mustang and Camaro. Dana (US)rear ends show up in all the big three, as well as Bosch (GER) fuel injection. You can even find a Nippondenso (JAP) alternator on domestics. The limited edition Buick GNX had wheels made in Japan.

The reason I don't like the 4 valve 4 cylinders is because the torque comes on late. 4 valvers breath better at higher rpms, so you have to rev the sucker to get any power. If you do that, the guy beside you KNOWS you are going to drag. The Yanks tend to use 2 valve per cylinder heads, which are more efficient at lower rpms, so you can sit almost at idle and floor the gas and get moving at the light. By the time you reach the rpms when it's past its power peak, you've probably already beat the other guy across the light. Lower torque peak also makes for less shifting.

Then of course, there is the loss of power in the 4's when you turn on the a/c. Another plus is that 2 valvers use hydraulic lifters, so there is never any valve adjustment needed. Many Hondas use mechanical lifters, so the valve lash has to be adjusted. Another expensive service considered "normal" maintenance that owners pay for without complaining.

Nothing wrong with 4 cyl, I just put smoothness and power delivery ahead of fuel economy.

 

[Sixer]

RE: Car

The problem stems from the upper intake manifold being made of plastic. Over time, the plastic melts due to engine heat (especially around the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve where it pipes into the intake manifold.

I took my car to my mechanic recently and he told me the exact same thing above. The intake manifold was made of plastic and it will crack overtime due to extreme heat and freeze. I need to replace a number of other auto parts as well such as gasket, sealer & etc. The prices for the parts that James has quoted were quite accurate. My mechanic also told me that the old model of my car was equipped with an aluminium manifold. GM only has the plastic one for all its new models. The cost for the labour alone will be around $ 400 plus.

The whole idea for me to purchase a brand new Buick was to be trouble free for the first 60000KM. I get my oil change regularly and always strive to maintain my car in top condition. I guess I over estimated its reliability and dependability. When I first read James’ thread I never thought it could happen to me since my car was still a little under 30000KM. I will give you guys the same advise that my mechanic told me, which is tell your mechanic to check your car’s manifold each and every time when you get your oil change. Get the repair done as soon as possible when there is any noticeable crack or leak to prevent catastrophic damage to your engine and your wallet.

 

[goose]

What does poorboy do?

So, is it stupid of me to conclude that maybe poorboy works for GM?? Did he mention it in a previous post and I missed it??

Goose

 

[kingcobra]

Did anyone that had the problems with the intake gasket ever get any satisfaction from GM?
I'm being told I need to replace mine and they're telling me it'll cost about $1500.
I will probably only keep it another year and then unload so I really don't want to sink $1500 + into it.
Did GM ever pony up for anyone's repairs / replacements?

 

[poorboy]

WOW! I can't believe this thread is still alive! I haven't visited here for a long time.

To answer your question Goose, no I do not work for GM.

I gained my knowledge of cars by fixing and racing them for over 10 years. I've fixed German, Japanese and American cars.

I see what cars break going down the track, and know how much parts are because I buy parts.

I've also observed that most people do not buy cars, they buy images.

James T Kirk, did you ever check out that link about the climate control?

 

[homer]

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but does this problem still exist on newer models?

Homer

 

[zzap]

The problem stems from the upper intake manifold being made of plastic.

Over time, the plastic melts due to engine heat ....

plastic melts due to heat?
Geezzzz no one at GM knows this I bet

 

[poorboy]

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but does this problem still exist on newer models?

Homer

Apparently, GM has redesigned the intake gaskets for the 3.4 to better address this problem. I've replaced intake gaskets on a 97 Buick Century and a 2001 Grand Am. Both were over 100,000 kms. Personally, I couldn't see the difference in the new design, but my technician friend assures me they are different.

As far as the 3800 goes, the intake is still plastic except for the supercharged 3800's, so the problem Kirk had may still occur.

Plastic intakes are extemely common these days. The 500 hp Z06 Corvette uses one.

 

[Meister]

Personally, I couldn't see the difference in the new design, but my technician friend assures me they are different.

The design may be the same, but there is different temperature ratings for various plastics.

 

[shakenbake]

hi there,

My car was babied. The oil changed every 5k, even insisting on GM filter, always took care of issues that came up, even had the plastic bumpers repainted to keep the thing looking good.

What a joke.

If your engine is a 3.1, 3.4, or 3.8 litre engine, you have the same type of upper intake manifold that i do.

You should be worried.

...

Don't ignore it thinking it is just one of those things. This has cost me large.

GM couldn't even make a decent METAL engine part. Just look at all the Quad 4 and dual twin cam V6 engines that have become toast. The head gasket and the cylinder head on my high Output Quad 4 went twice and I had to junk my car. By the way, there was a materials incompatibility problem, but they decided to use the same damned parts anyway the forst time it happened.

The solution is to hit them where they hurt the most, buy anything but a GM. Many of us are making that decision, and that is why GM is no longer holding 50 % of the market, but only 25 or so percent, and their investment instruments are now rated at junk status. Any one with half a brain can see that their phlospohy of selling medicore products and trying to keep the customers happily stupid is just NOT working.

If GM really wants to stay in business, they need to improve on the quality of their engineering and manufacturing, and also their styling and the relevance of the product to the buyng public.