Unions are protecting the Rich
- Thread starter Meister
- Start date
80 hours a week? Checking your office e-mail at 9:30 at night from home doesn't count. If you are working (seriously working) 80 hours a week you better be pulling in at least 120+k, otherwise you are just stupid. With an unemployment level quite low you don't need to work that hard to keep a half decent job. And don't get me started on comparing conditions to Chinese factories, not tonight I'm tired and need to go to bed.new2game said:....but making it sound like the vast majority of employers offer great working conditions??....you must be be living in fantasy land ..unbelieveable. ..where so many employers expect you to be committed to the job 60-80 hrs a week.. but offer 40 hrs pay....where commercials from Rogers to Holiday Inn show you how you can stay connected to work all the time..where other employers feel 10/hr is a liveable wage...nope ..working conditons for the most part on this continent are perfect...
Umm..sorry Meister....yes it does count...
the worker that is checking emails is still thinking work ...the inability for workers to disengage from the job is a huge issue...the computer generation was supposed to bring more free time to the work force..have you looked at any of the stats lately??...Most people are working more hours for less pay than ever..thanks to this fine global economy..
BTW ...I can tell that you and train are management types...making their deep six figure salaries..reading the bullshit about job creation pumped out by our government...but these jobs do not replace the well paying manufacturing jobs that are going down the drain in many areas of this province outside the GTA
....and before you throw the jealousy card out there ....I live a very fine upper middle class lifestyle, thank you..own my own home..a damn nice one at that...cars...toys..and am saving towards early retirement at this point...Freedom 55 for me is the goal...
N2G
Meister said:
the worker that is checking emails is still thinking work ...the inability for workers to disengage from the job is a huge issue...the computer generation was supposed to bring more free time to the work force..have you looked at any of the stats lately??...Most people are working more hours for less pay than ever..thanks to this fine global economy..
BTW ...I can tell that you and train are management types...making their deep six figure salaries..reading the bullshit about job creation pumped out by our government...but these jobs do not replace the well paying manufacturing jobs that are going down the drain in many areas of this province outside the GTA
....and before you throw the jealousy card out there ....I live a very fine upper middle class lifestyle, thank you..own my own home..a damn nice one at that...cars...toys..and am saving towards early retirement at this point...Freedom 55 for me is the goal...
N2G
unions and the rich
IMHO:
if the union did not protect the rich, then the rich will be like the middle class and end up poor..
and become lower class income.. WELFARE here we come
IMHO:
if the union did not protect the rich, then the rich will be like the middle class and end up poor..
and become lower class income.. WELFARE here we come
I didn't say that was the plan I was using...
...only that the idea is what I strive for...being retired ..or at least semi retired by 55...I am not using that plan..anyone knows the only kind of insurance to buy is term...lol
N2G
Meister said:Did you know that the guy running happily on the beach in the Freedom 55 commercials on TV is actually the insurance sales agent who suckered you into a crappy policy?
...only that the idea is what I strive for...being retired ..or at least semi retired by 55...I am not using that plan..anyone knows the only kind of insurance to buy is term...lol
N2G
Meister: New2 is quite correct. In many of my previous jobs I was pulling in (on average) 70 - 80 hrs per week and was only in the $50K bracket. As for not having to do that, ummm, give your head a shake. If you don't do that you will be replaced with someone that will.
Many companies are in a hiring freeze in order to control costs therefore if someone leaves, they aren't replaced and yet the tasks still need to be done.
I took a job last year as a finishing manager for a condo developer. I was putting in about 110 - 120 hrs a week, but when they hired me I stood my ground and insisted on an hourly rate. After 3 months they wanted to put me on salary and I said "HELL NO" so they let me go. But after inquiring of people on other sites I found out a development of that size typically had: A sr site manager, jr site manager, sr finishing manager, jr finishing manager. What did they have? Site Manager and Finishing Manager aka 2 ppl doing the work of 4. I told the president of the company time and time again: a silly person pays too much, but a fool pays too little. (btw: they were 2 yrs behind schedule).
Many companies are in a hiring freeze in order to control costs therefore if someone leaves, they aren't replaced and yet the tasks still need to be done.
I took a job last year as a finishing manager for a condo developer. I was putting in about 110 - 120 hrs a week, but when they hired me I stood my ground and insisted on an hourly rate. After 3 months they wanted to put me on salary and I said "HELL NO" so they let me go. But after inquiring of people on other sites I found out a development of that size typically had: A sr site manager, jr site manager, sr finishing manager, jr finishing manager. What did they have? Site Manager and Finishing Manager aka 2 ppl doing the work of 4. I told the president of the company time and time again: a silly person pays too much, but a fool pays too little. (btw: they were 2 yrs behind schedule).
I dunno but it seems like you're missing the point that in my last 4 jobs they expected (bordered on demanded) that I work those hours.....Meister said:
My "bonus" was supposed to make up for the extra hours but at year end, they always came up with some lame excuse why we weren't getting one....
BTW: I just remembered something from a previous post about how someone checking emails at 9:30 pm doesn't constitute (in their mind) working. Well I new a trainer who worked for Raytheon in the US and she used to travel to their various sites to train new people (don't know on what, she wouldn't tell me due to government contracts) but she used to get paid from the minute she left her front door, to the time she returned. Hourly, even when she was sleeping. She used to love going to LA (she was based in Dallas) because she'd go for a week and take home about $3000.00 US.
What your're mising here Meister...
...is that there are a lot of employers that take advantage of their employees, especially the young and dumb, with visions of grandeur and climbing the corporate ladder. Or those that believe in Kaisan (sp)..which is basically eating breathing and shitting the company line all the time, for the "pleasure" of the company supplying your every need in life. My company has many of these types..young bucks who think the more they work, the more they give to the company, the higher they will climb. I had a very short stint in my working career where I was blinded by some of this garbage. But now after nearly 30 yrs in my field, my company gets a well dedicated 8 hr working day out of me..after that theycan rot...and if they think they can find someone to do the job better...fire me and hire them..I've told my immediate boss that at least 3 times in the last year when he has asked why I do not put in the unpaid time like others in my position do....He still does not have the balls to try to replace me..
Unfortunately..not everyone will stand up for themselves when being bent over the chair and ass fucked with a plunger handle by the company. This is one of the many functions that a well operating and principled union can serve. In fact, for some workplaces, the threat of a union can have the company singing a different tune. Check out how much better a place like Wal Mart is trying to treat their employees these days. Hardly an ideallic place to work, but much better than the past , before the threat of unionization came into the picture..
N2G
Meister said:
...is that there are a lot of employers that take advantage of their employees, especially the young and dumb, with visions of grandeur and climbing the corporate ladder. Or those that believe in Kaisan (sp)..which is basically eating breathing and shitting the company line all the time, for the "pleasure" of the company supplying your every need in life. My company has many of these types..young bucks who think the more they work, the more they give to the company, the higher they will climb. I had a very short stint in my working career where I was blinded by some of this garbage. But now after nearly 30 yrs in my field, my company gets a well dedicated 8 hr working day out of me..after that theycan rot...and if they think they can find someone to do the job better...fire me and hire them..I've told my immediate boss that at least 3 times in the last year when he has asked why I do not put in the unpaid time like others in my position do....He still does not have the balls to try to replace me..
Unfortunately..not everyone will stand up for themselves when being bent over the chair and ass fucked with a plunger handle by the company. This is one of the many functions that a well operating and principled union can serve. In fact, for some workplaces, the threat of a union can have the company singing a different tune. Check out how much better a place like Wal Mart is trying to treat their employees these days. Hardly an ideallic place to work, but much better than the past , before the threat of unionization came into the picture..
N2G
new: only problem is typically office workers are classified as management and can't be unionized....at least, that is my understanding.
Further to my comments (and relating to yours): One company I worked for tried to dock me for excess sick days that I took after coming back from Mexico. When the GM called me into his office and asked how I was going to make up the time I said, "hold on, let me get my daytimer"...so I grabbed a calculator and because I had noted the # of hours OT I had put in, I added them up. When I reached the total of around 600 hrs for the year I said "ok, you can dock me for those 2 days I took but how are YOU going to make up for the 600 hrs I gave YOU"? He tried to argue the numbers but then I said "you know, since I entered the numbers whenever I worked, this daytimer can be used as evidence should I ever need it in court just as notes taken during a conversation can be".....well, he shut up and I didn't get docked.....
Further to the old saying "I wish I'd known then what I know now...." The Ministry of Labour plainly states that even if one is salaried, any hours in excess of 44 must be paid or time off in lieu of pay. I also think it states somewhere that it is actually illegal for someone to work more than 60 hrs (or something like that).
Further to my comments (and relating to yours): One company I worked for tried to dock me for excess sick days that I took after coming back from Mexico. When the GM called me into his office and asked how I was going to make up the time I said, "hold on, let me get my daytimer"...so I grabbed a calculator and because I had noted the # of hours OT I had put in, I added them up. When I reached the total of around 600 hrs for the year I said "ok, you can dock me for those 2 days I took but how are YOU going to make up for the 600 hrs I gave YOU"? He tried to argue the numbers but then I said "you know, since I entered the numbers whenever I worked, this daytimer can be used as evidence should I ever need it in court just as notes taken during a conversation can be".....well, he shut up and I didn't get docked.....
Further to the old saying "I wish I'd known then what I know now...." The Ministry of Labour plainly states that even if one is salaried, any hours in excess of 44 must be paid or time off in lieu of pay. I also think it states somewhere that it is actually illegal for someone to work more than 60 hrs (or something like that).
Are you sure about that? When I worked for the city on my coops all the office staff were part of the union (at least the ones below the rank of supervisor). And while I wasn't present at the time, I believe the office workers where I work were invited to join the union at one point and time.tboy said:
Sorry, yeah, you're correct. Anyone without people reporting to them can be unionized.....Moraff said:
Story in today's sun about layoffs at Chrysler:
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2007/11/02/4624850-sun.html
I noticed how they blame the imports for the problem and that one line where the person said "great benefits". I wonder: do those 12,000 ever think about what I've said all along? About how is it better to make $35.00 an hour for 25 yrs or $55.00 an hour for 10 yrs? Probably not but then again, that would only make cents...err...sense.....
Depends for whom. It certainly makes sense for the employer. But, if I was in the union I would also push for the maximum even if that means only 10 years work, because after 10 years your wealth creation is that much higher and you can switch to the oh so abundant high paying High Tech jobs that everyone is talking about here.tboy said:
Actually, let's do the math: (barring inflation adjustments):Meister said:
40 hrs per week (lol yeah right) x $35.00 x 52 wks = $72800.00 x 25 yrs =
$1.8 M
40 hrs per week x $55.00 x 52 wks =$114,400.00 x 10 yrs = $1.1 M
wow, $700,000.00 more.... makes you wonder eh? (and notice that the layoffs were for people with LESS than 10 yrs experience?)
Oh yeah, and don't forget about those wonderful benefits that were mentioned in the article, and security, and more vacation days as your seniority increases etc etc etc
Sorry, but if you want to live fast and loose and make quick coin, by all means but don't you DARE fucking complain when you lose your job.....
I was just talking with a neighbour about welfare etc and what happened to workfare.
I remembered reading about a proposal for workfare and why it didn't work. Well one proposal was that since Toronto has a budget crisis yet still needs work done they should bring on 2 workfare people to be supervised by 1 union guy. That way the work gets done, no union man loses his job and we get some people off their asses and get them to work.
The reason that proposal didn't go through is because the union said: Well, if there is enough work for 3 on a crew, the city should hire more union men. Well the city can't afford to hire more union men so workfare died, no add'l union men were hired and the city's a dump.....
I remembered reading about a proposal for workfare and why it didn't work. Well one proposal was that since Toronto has a budget crisis yet still needs work done they should bring on 2 workfare people to be supervised by 1 union guy. That way the work gets done, no union man loses his job and we get some people off their asses and get them to work.
The reason that proposal didn't go through is because the union said: Well, if there is enough work for 3 on a crew, the city should hire more union men. Well the city can't afford to hire more union men so workfare died, no add'l union men were hired and the city's a dump.....
Unions are in this whole thing to make money for themselves but at my job the younger guys are working harder and the older guys are working less hard or are to stupid to know better .How do you think I can afford to give my cash away to all the sweet mpa's out there lol.
Admit it or not unions got your benefits...........with that said the day of the union is over well for the next 20 years when all your benefits are self supported.
PS: for the record, I've repeated this over and over again. Many here (as I have) admit that without unions, the abuse of workers would have continued and unions brought about the many laws and rights we have.papasmerf said:
BUT, IMO, their usefulness for that purpose has ended and all too often their only concern is money money money.......
