Unions are protecting the Rich

[l69norm]

It was something like 10 jobs in total for each auto plant job. I'll see if I can find a better source for these numbers..

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-america/united-states-michigan-metro-areas-detroit/3987431-1.html
".... Estimates of the multiplier effects in the auto industry range from 2 to 10--for every manufacturing job another 1 to 9 additional jobs are created or sustained...."

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/vista/vista0401.html
.... This supports their initial contention that the state had overestimated the multiplier impact and a multiplier of 2.55 was more reasonable than the state’s 5.33...."

http://www.cargroup.org/pdfs/North-SouthPaper.PDF
"....The discrepancy in the impact contributions appears to be the result of conflicting job multipliers applied in both studies, reportedly with the University of Kentucky using a multiplier of eleven, while implying that Ledebur used a jobs multiplier no higher than two. The Center for Automotive Research has calculated the jobs multiplier effect for an assembly plant at 7.5."

I was not able to locate a multiplier for telecom industry specifically, but other industries seems to vary from 1.2 to 3.2. Thats about 1/2 to what the auto industry is

 

[Moraff]

When Nortel moved all it's manufacturing out of Canada, did anyone even notice?

While I do see your point, I imagine the people who lost their livelihood as a result of the move probably noticed.

 

[l69norm]

While I do see your point, I imagine the people who lost their livelihood as a result of the move probably noticed.

I hope people remember that the infamous huge Nortel head office in Bramalea with it's putting green and catered lunches, etc actually used to be a Nortel manufacturing plant with 580 jobs. That plant got moved to Brockville, then was sold off and finally closed with a loss of 850 jobs

 

[wumpscut]

everyone concentrates on these expensive examples

of auto workers making huge bucks with little or no secondary educations. And use that as an example of why unions are bad. Guess what... in my job lots of my co-workers have university degrees and college degrees yet my company was paying less than $11 per hour and we had to go on strike to get a raise, and when we went back to work we got a big retro check because the government determined we should have got the raise long before but the company wouldn't pay it until it was forced too. Why are thier unions? Because companies aren't gonna treat you well from the goodness of thier heart. They do it because they have to. Without unions, we wouldn't be getting even that. All those examples of chinese cars coming in and crushing the north american auto market. Think the chinese manufacters pay a good wage? Not sure... but if you could save a pile of money by buying chinese, would you care? Probably not. It is easy to forget that even today, companies like Walmart will shut down a store rather than allow a union to form (already did it in Quebec) Are unions perfect? Hell no. But would management treat people with the same rules and give workers the same rights without them? You must be f_cking kidding!

 

[tboy]

Well wump, you do make some valid points but your post is indicative of what we've been saying about "union workers not having secondary school education". Take a look at your post: Ever hear of this word called 'paragraph'??? It's used whenever you change topic, or start a new line of thought......

As for chinese vehicles being imported. That is controlled by the Federal Government and they control it by the amount and type of items that can be imported into Canada.

As for companies closing to prevent unions. More power to them because unions can KILL a company (for short term gain).

While yes, there are companies out there who do tend to try to take advantage of their employees, not all are like that. Many (like Canadian Tire for eg) offer great benefits, competitive wages etc in order to KEEP their most valuable commodity. Which is, their employees.

As for your example of the company having to pay you back pay for the wage increase you didn't get. Did the union get you that? By your own admission it wasn't, it was the government....see? That's our point:

Unions were necessary back in the day to prevent abuses to the workers. But now we have labour laws protecting workers and you've just proven that by your post.

 

[wumpscut]

Well wump, you do make some valid points but your post is indicative of what we've been saying about "union workers not having secondary school education". Take a look at your post: Ever hear of this word called 'paragraph'??? It's used whenever you change topic, or start a new line of thought......

As for chinese vehicles being imported. That is controlled by the Federal Government and they control it by the amount and type of items that can be imported into Canada.

As for companies closing to prevent unions. More power to them because unions can KILL a company (for short term gain).

While yes, there are companies out there who do tend to try to take advantage of their employees, not all are like that. Many (like Canadian Tire for eg) offer great benefits, competitive wages etc in order to KEEP their most valuable commodity. Which is, their employees.

As for your example of the company having to pay you back pay for the wage increase you didn't get. Did the union get you that? By your own admission it wasn't, it was the government....see? That's our point:

Unions were necessary back in the day to prevent abuses to the workers. But now we have labour laws protecting workers and you've just proven that by your post.

ah Tboy, you come by your "resident smartass" title honestly, didn't you Your insinuation that I don't have any secondary education is incorrect. Send me a PM if you really want to know about my university education. Granted my job isn't related to what I studied in university, hey guess what thats real life.
The point I was making about the Chinese vehicles is that part of the low cost could be from underpaying/mistreating their workers but that wouldn't be a concern, it would be ignored so that North American unions could be slagged by guys like you.
If you are saying that Walmart "needed" to close rather than allow a union(as it might "kill" the corporation,) you can't be serious. Walmart is way too profitable for a union in one Canadian store to destroy it. Surely even a union hater like yourself can see that, right?
If you think that Canadian Tire treats its employees well out of the goodness of it heart, you would be embarrassingly naive. It keeps employees happy to prevent a union drive and reduce turnover. Purely bottom line economics, it is

 

[wumpscut]

part 2

... a calculated business decision to keep the company running efficiently.
As for the gov't getting my retro pay, who do you think brought the problem to their attention? The union perhaps?

If labour laws were so perfect, their wouldn't be greviences filed and lawsuits over harassment/improper dismissal/discrimination etc. The fact that these problems still exist "proves" that unions are necessary.

Hey, how you like that. Paragraphs were not so hard after all. But then again, I wasn't an english major and my last english course was in the early 80's

 

[tboy]

Well Wump, I said that because of your poor grammatical skills used in your post lol.

As for CTC: well, you COULD say that the reason they treat them well is to prevent union infiltration but that only works at the warehouse level not on junior, middle or senior management. I have first hand knowledge as I worked there for 17 yrs.....

As for walmart, as the corporation owns all the stores, if you get a union in one, that same union could theorectically more easily get into all stores since all floor staff are employed by the same company, not a franchise like CTC (where they'd have to approach each store independantly as they are all separate entities).

As for unions still being necessary or not: an employee doesn't need a union to report their situation to the ministry of labour, they can do it themselves. As for wrongful dismissal cases etc these too are brought before the ministry of labour and you don't need a union for that.

Like I said: unions were necessary back in the day before we had so many laws protecting us workers but with the laws in place, the unions aren't necessary any longer. Kind of like the second world war: the US built and continued building thousands of planes, tanks, ships, etc right up to the end of the war. Once the war was over, they scrapped most of them. The problem is: the union won the war but didn't bother disarming.

As a union man let me ask you: Labour is THE most or the second most expensive overhead a company has. Would you prefer to make $25.00 an hr, for 25 yrs or $50.00 an hr for 10 yrs? (because many manufacturing jobs, assembly jobs etc are being moved to countries with low labour costs).

 

[l69norm]

..As for CTC: well, you COULD say that the reason they treat them well is to prevent union infiltration but that only works at the warehouse level not on junior, middle or senior management. I have first hand knowledge as I worked there for 17 yrs.....

I would prefer an employer to treat it's workers well because it's a corporate value they believe in rather than because there is a fear of a union.

When you were at CTC corporate, wasn't there an employee association that bargained for benefits on behalf of all CTC corporate employees? How was this done there?

...As for unions still being necessary or not: an employee doesn't need a union to report their situation to the ministry of labour, they can do it themselves. As for wrongful dismissal cases etc these too are brought before the ministry of labour and you don't need a union for that. ,.

MOL only intercedes if the Employment Standards Act has been violated and order employers to comply with it's provisions. MOL can only order a worker reinstated for ESA violations on:
Leaves of Absence - pregnancy leave
Lie Detectors - right to refuse
Retail Business Establishments - right to refuse work on a statutory holiday
Reprisal - complaining to MOL

Wrongful dismissal cases are civil lawsuits and go before the courts. You are not allowed to have a lawsuit as well as a MOL complaint on the same issue.

 

[l69norm]

...Unions were necessary back in the day to prevent abuses to the workers. But now we have labour laws protecting workers ......

Even though it was totally legal, do you believe that it was fair/morally right for Conrad Black to swindle control of Argus Corp (Massey Ferguson and Dominion stores), seize the employee pension fund and use it's surplus to pay off the "acquisition" costs, then chop Argus up and sell off all the pieces for a tidy profit?

 

[Primetime21]

The one major complaint i have with unions is the fact that once you are in the union it is next to impossible for the company to fire you. I know the union's job is to protect their membership but when you are constantly coming to work late, still drunk from the night before, etc. The company should be able to can your ass. Or if you are a teacher and are completely useless at your job, you get sent to another school board at worst. Unions are protecting the bottom feeders of the workforce and that just brings the people who are actually competent at their job down.
If the unions would actually get rid of the workers that have no place being there, i would have no problem with them. But until that happens, i have no use for them.

 

[l69norm]

..Unions are protecting the bottom feeders of the workforce and that just brings the people who are actually competent at their job down. ..

Some unions also have stupid ideas too. This is going to sound like a joke, but I'm sad to say it is real:

How many people does it take to move 1 PC?

1. a person to move the monitor and PC
2. a person to move the keyboard and mouse
3. a person to patch the PC into the new wall jack (cable only)
4. a person to patch the at the wiring closet (cable only)
5. a person to configure the LAN switch port

FIVE different people in total !!! Each person either has a different union job description or belongs to a different union (3 unions involved).

How many days does it take to move 1 PC?

TWO days!!! This is from the time person one acts till person five finishes !! And you have to call two weeks in advance to "book" the move

Did the PC work after it was moved?

NO !!! the LAN port didn't work. Another day to waiting to fix and 2 more hours time with person 3 and person 4.

Could I move the PC by myself - sure if I want a grievance.

 

[tboy]

Norm: no, no employee association other than the social committee that worked on things like the christmas parties etc.

As I said: AJ and JW Billes (the founders of CTC) had a philosophy of contributing to society as opposed to a purely money making venture. That ideology was passed on until the late 80's/early 90's until the US brass came in but by then it was too late, we already had many benefits in place that could not be revoked (and I bet they would have been had the US execs had their way lol).

The only time in my 17 yrs that I ever heard of any steps being taken to halt a union was one time a secret vote/meeting was taking place and a VP went up to talk to the workers at the Brampton Distribution Warehouse. He basically said to the group: the stock option plan (which accounted for a "bonus" of about $5K per employee) and the profit sharing plan would be gone from their benefit package as that (I think) cannot be included in a collective agreement. This wasn't a threat, but a reminder of what they would lose if they voted yes to the union.

As for wages, there were some commissioned fillers who worked at the sheppard warehouse who were taking home something in the neighbourhood of $100K. (how it worked was you rec'd an order, picked it, and received .01% of that order. Great money if you got an order for a load of brake pads or similar expensive but small items).

 

[tboy]

Norm: that doesn't surprise me. I was in the trade show business for about 10/12 yrs and I have seen it all.

In NYC at the Jacob Javits centre to hang a sign you need:
A rigging crew which consists of:
A driver to operate the travel lift
2 Riggers to place the cables/wires to hang the sign
2 Safety men to lead the travel lift through the aisles.
2 decorators to actually hang the sign (because hey, it's graphic)

One time I was waiting for them to arrive and saw them finally approaching the booth I was building. So I went back to work. 20 minutes later it occured to me that they hadn't arrived yet so I went looking to see where they were.

Well, they were stopped 3 ft from my booth and were just standing there. I said "what the hell are you guys doing". They said "we can't move, we don't have a clear path".

I looked down and there was an empty cardboard box, about 10" cube laying on it's side with the top facing them and you could plainly see it was empty.

I hoofed it out of the way and they made it to the booth. I was told later that they weren't allowed to touch anything around a booth as they could be charged with theft etc.

BTW: I forget when it actually happened but Gulianni called in the National Guard and set up checkpoints at every entrance to and from the JJ centre. Every employee in the building had to go through the checkpoint and be frisked. Anyone found with a gun, a weapon of any kind, drugs, large bundles of cash were either arrested or fired on the spot. He did this because the guys loading and unloading the exhibit crates were extorting cash out of the exhibitors and I know someone personally who had a gun pulled on them more than once when he threatened to complain about it.....

 

[Moraff]

The only time in my 17 yrs that I ever heard of any steps being taken to halt a union was one time a secret vote/meeting was taking place and a VP went up to talk to the workers at the Brampton Distribution Warehouse. He basically said to the group: the stock option plan (which accounted for a "bonus" of about $5K per employee) and the profit sharing plan would be gone from their benefit package as that (I think) cannot be included in a collective agreement. This wasn't a threat, but a reminder of what they would lose if they voted yes to the union.

I believe you may be incorrect (or things have changed since then perhaps) as the company that just bought mine has profit-sharing in it's different plants, including the one that is unionized. I would think that anything (legal) could be negotiated into the collective bargaining agreement. Sounds more like a threat was being made to me.

 

[Moraff]

The one major complaint i have with unions is the fact that once you are in the union it is next to impossible for the company to fire you. I know the union's job is to protect their membership but when you are constantly coming to work late, still drunk from the night before, etc. The company should be able to can your ass. Or if you are a teacher and are completely useless at your job, you get sent to another school board at worst. Unions are protecting the bottom feeders of the workforce and that just brings the people who are actually competent at their job down.
If the unions would actually get rid of the workers that have no place being there, i would have no problem with them. But until that happens, i have no use for them.

I agree with you that it is much more difficult to get rid of bad employees but it can be done. In my company there is a clear discipline procedure that the company can use to deal with problematic employees. However, it has been my experience that the company continuously screws up in applying said procedures which gives the union a way to protect the employee. While I agree that this can protect the poor employee, that's what they're paying their dues for.

The advantage to having the union is that you can't get fired just 'cause the boss decides he doesn't like you that particular day. As well, while it's true that you can get things settled directly with the MoL, it can be taken care of much faster with a union.

I don't know how many different non-union places my SO has worked where the policy was "we don't pay overtime" regardless of how many hours were worked in a given period. Sure you could complain to the MoL and would probably get your OT pay, but you'd also be looking for new employment just because you stood up for your legal rights.

 

[tboy]

I believe you may be incorrect (or things have changed since then perhaps) as the company that just bought mine has profit-sharing in it's different plants, including the one that is unionized. I would think that anything (legal) could be negotiated into the collective bargaining agreement. Sounds more like a threat was being made to me.

But does the new union have profit sharing?

I bet there is a clause in there somewhere that prohibits unions from owning shares in the company they work for....I wouldn't say for sure because I'm not that up on the laws/rules/regs etc but I could see something like that being in effect....

 

[l69norm]

Hey, off-topic a little, just looking at:
http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/report_card/rc_archive-conv.html
Cited for MOL for ESA violations:

1210436 Ontario Ltd. o/a Million Dollar Restaurant Brampton Part I Ticket $360 May 9, 2007 Require or permit hours of work to exceed limits s.17(1)
1210436 Ontario Ltd. o/a Million Dollar Restaurant Brampton Part I Ticket $360 May 9, 2007 Fail to pay overtime pay s.22(1)

Brampton Wings Company o/a Hooters Brampton Part I Ticket $355 July 13, 2006 Require or permit hours of work to exceed limits s. 17(1)
Brampton Wings Company o/a Hooters Brampton Part I Ticket $355 July 13, 2006 Fail to pay overtime pay s. 22(1)

The biggest fine was;
North Star Textiles Inc. Toronto Part III Prosecution $106,250 March 8, 2007 Fail to comply with orders to pay s.103(8) and s.132
North Star Textiles Inc. Toronto Part III Prosecution $18,750 March 8, 2007 Fail to comply with a notice of contravention s.113(5) and s.132

 

[5andman]

I've worked at a union shop .... and all I can say is Thank God there was one. The working conditions were terrible.

Management were irresponsible and cared more about pushing out product than cared about the workers. There were injuries and verbal abuses.
The workers had a saying "...until someone dies" which meant until someone dies -- maybe conditions would change.

I was so surprised that environments like that still existed and still do.

 

[papasmerf]

I've worked at a union shop .... and all I can say is Thank God there was one. The working conditions were terrible.

Management were irresponsible and cared more about pushing out product than cared about the workers. There were injuries and verbal abuses.
The workers had a saying "...until someone dies" which meant until someone dies -- maybe conditions would change.

I was so surprised that environments like that still existed and still do.

Were it not for unions, you would still be working 10 hours a day, 6 days a week for one dollar a hour.

Unions forced health care in the US and retirement internationally. They pushed for the 40 hour work week and vacations. For those who hate unions I suggest they learn history.

With that said the day of the union is ending and will be gone for roughly 20 years.