Have you looked at a map? NATO already has members on their doorstep. And Ukraine doesn't need to be in NATO to be a NATO ally.
Ukraine To Receive Military Support 'For As Long As It Takes'
- Thread starter oil&gas
- Start date
Have y'all forgotten Ukraine has been voted on for ascension into the European Union and it passed? When did Saddam or South Vietnam join Europe? I think I missed those.
I'm not sure what your mean by "Ukraine is an ally but not by formal agreement". You know agreements have been signed, right? There are more agreements then just NATO ascension.
In any case, NATO stated two things Ukraine needed to advance it's standing. First, Westernization of ours Democratic systems including reduction of corruption. Given how much western nations have given Ukraine, they can no longer claim there's widespread corruption without looking foolish. Whether it exists or not has ceased to matter; no one that matters can admit it does. Secondly, increasing the interoperability of its military with NATO forces. I assume I don't need to comment on that.
NATO has run out of excuses, and a weak Russia means there's no risk with admitting them, especially when you consider NATO already has member states that border Russia so that's not a factor worthy of consideration at all. Barring some major change to the status quo, I have no doubt we'll see Ukraine in NATO after the war.
To explain it in the simplest manner :
U.S.A. - The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
By supplying arms to Ukraine the U.S. and the west are accomplices to the war without direct participation.
U.S.A. - The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
By supplying arms to Ukraine the U.S. and the west are accomplices to the war without direct participation.
There is no upside for NATO to admit Ukraine. It is just a provocation for Russia to do further incursions in the future. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.
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Sevastopol. That's a major upside and one that didn't exist before. And when I say major, I mean it changes things in ways you can't even imagine. I mean I didn't specialize in naval intelligence or battle planning but even I get a stiffy thinking about how powerful it would be for NATO to have Sevastopol; something we thought was impossible during my time. That is enough to get them in no matter what. Afterall, Turkey was admitted and is basically bulletproof due to the Bosphorus, and Crimea is every bit as strategically relevant as that.
I'll give you more though.
Iceland is in NATO. Iceland has no military. Iceland has no military intelligence agency. Iceland has no signals, human, or geospatial intelligence agencies. Iceland has allowed NATO to install 4 radars there as part of IADS, which could essentially be replaced by a single AWACS and offers no real early-warning capabilities. Ukraine in NATO certainly has a bigger upside than Iceland.
In terms of active duty military size in Europe, there's Turkey, France, then Ukraine. They've got more soldiers than Germany and the UK. If weak Russia does want to lash out down the road, they will potentially see Ukraine as a primary target to make up for their "humiliation", which takes pressure off other NATO nations (and means less warheads for striking other NATO nations).
I have repeatedly said that NATO didn't want Ukraine prior to the war. But the war changes the dynamics. Joining NATO is now in their Constitution. Their society rapidly westernized. Their military is now more interoperable with NATO than a handful of other NATO nations. Any pre-existing agreements with Russia (ie the lease of Sevastopol) are null and void. Plus if Russia loses, they'll be so weak it will be irrelevant what Russia thinks in the immediate aftermath, and in the longer term it won't matter. A new strategy will need to be devised, sure. But with air supremacy and a large Black Sea Fleet now that NATO will have a deep sea port there, it's possible the new strategy might even be better. Heck, those battle plans may already exist even. My experience is more than a decade out of date. Having said that NATO's big-picture strategy wasn't OPSEC so I'm not sure why a new one would be so I'd probably have heard if it had changed, but it's still possible.
If Russia wants to "do further incursions" after that, they will be unable to do so without triggering article 5. If Russia loses because the entire game changes. It goes from "we need to defend against a nation far claims to have a top 5 military", to "we should keep this militarily weak nation weak and, if possible, make it militarily weaker."
Also, there are MNNA's as well as prospective NATO nations to consider and what impact it would have on them if Ukraine isn't admitted now. Keeping a country out when you have a reason, even when it's as ridiculous as "your country's name is the same as a region in our country so change it" is one thing. Keeping out a country after a war with your biggest enemy whose butcher's bill is going to be massive isn't going to win any hearts and minds. Even if there was no other value in admitting Ukraine, there is a penalty for keeping them out.
There's also a military strategic reason why you don't want a military you trained and that has a lot of your cutting edge equipment being angry at you and potentially helping your enemies. Not to mention they're practically guaranteed EU membership now.
All of these things, in my opinion, tip the scales so far in Ukraine's favour that NATO will invite them for ascension in the first meeting after peace is signed. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if an emergency meeting is called to hold a vote. Unless, of course, something changes in the meantime. In the aftermath, if Russia loses and there are no other significant developments, we shall see which of us is right.
Oil, you have a new recruit jumping into the fray. LMAO
The reality is Zelenskyy has become a star and an example of a true leader.
The reality is Zelenskyy has become a star and an example of a true leader.
Zelensky may be a star to a significant fraction of the population
in NATO member states and other English speaking parts of the
world. Majority of the world don't seem to find him a bigger star
than Putin.
in NATO member states and other English speaking parts of the
world. Majority of the world don't seem to find him a bigger star
than Putin.
It is true that
Americans Hold Positive Feelings Toward NATO and Ukraine, See Russia as an Enemy
and yet it is also likely true that
Americans, and especially Republicans, increasingly say the U.S. should focus on issues at home, while Democrats say it’s best for U.S. to be active in world affairs.
www.pewresearch.org
Americans Hold Positive Feelings Toward NATO and Ukraine, See Russia as an Enemy
and yet it is also likely true that
Americans, and especially Republicans, increasingly say the U.S. should focus on issues at home, while Democrats say it’s best for U.S. to be active in world affairs.
Americans Hold Positive Feelings Toward NATO and Ukraine, See Russia as an Enemy
Majorities of U.S. adults have favorable views of Ukraine (64%) and NATO (62%). About seven-in-ten Republicans (71%) say the U.S. should pay less attention to problems overseas and focus on concerns at home — up from 65% in 2021.
www.pewresearch.org
Is Ukraine's Zelensky OK?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President of Ukraine, does quite a bit of random sniffing during some sort of press conference or speaking engagement. It is not quite c...
www.youtube.com
Look at them glossy cocaine eyes.
The butt hurt is so ......
..... so resounding.So invested in your anti-Americanism, that the 21st century Hitler incarnate somehow, inexplicitly has become your hero, so much so, that when someone on this board opines that Zelensky is a star, your butt and mind explodes.
I am not anti-America outside of its foreign policies. What isThe butt hurt is so ......
So invested in your anti-Americanism, that the 21st century Hitler incarnate somehow, inexplicitly has become your hero, so much so, that when someone on this board opines that Zelensky is a star, your butt and mind explodes.
good for our southern neighbour is also good for us in Canada.
I am looking forward to the end of the Ukraine war which will
benefit both the U.S. and Canada. We shall see migration of
more European business to North American due to rising
energy cost. We will export LNG, coal and Uranium to Europe
at premium prices thanks to Putin's reverse sanctions. They
will also have to step up upgrading of military equipment
to shore up defence against future Russian invasion which
means more business for the U.S. weapon manufacturers
that should benefit us as well.
Troll&gas has been working overtime all by himself and needs support,
Putin boi is MIA while Putin mand and addict2bull have done a shitty job so far.
The others are suffering from battle fatigue, ennui, PTSD and the shakes on Putin's Special Operations code-named TWERPS on TERB.
Is Ukraine's Zelensky OK?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President of Ukraine, does quite a bit of random sniffing during some sort of press conference or speaking engagement. It is not quite c...
Look at them glossy cocaine eyes.
With Zelensky invite, Saudi seeks star turn on world stage
One man is revered in Western capitals for standing up to Russia's full-scale invasion of his country.The other is widely reviled for atrocities committed against his own people in a war that has made him dependent on Moscow.At the Arab League summit on Friday, host Saudi Arabia brought...
I could see, the Putin lovers are out tonight! OK, let's throw a little cold water on the Love Putin Party
Tempered in a Crucible of Violence, Zelensky Rises to the Moment (Published 2023)
In much of the world, President Volodymyr Zelensky, once brushed off as a political lightweight, has become a household name, representing Ukraine’s tenacity and underdog victories against Russia.
Zelensky has mastered the world stage and earned a place in history
Imagine, for a moment, what it is like to be Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelensky. Your primary and most basic official task is to stay alive, so comprehensively have you come to embody the fate and valour or your embattled people. Death is all around you: in the shells that rain down on the...
www.standard.co.uk
vs
First, pre-illegal invasion
Image of Putin, Russia Suffers Internationally
People around the world broadly think Russia plays a more important role in international affairs than it did a decade ago. But increased stature does not mean being better liked.
www.pewresearch.org
Publics Worldwide Unfavorable Toward Putin, Russia
Around the world, few people trust Putin to do the right thing when it comes to international affairs.
www.pewresearch.org
let us continue to the present after this goofball dumbass twat decided to invade a sovereign friendly neighbor
3. Ratings for Russia drop to record lows
A median of 85% across 18 countries express an unfavorable opinion of Russia, with majorities in most nations saying they have a very unfavorable opinion
www.pewresearch.org
Putin’s Global Ratings Drop to 20-Year Low – Pew - The Moscow Times
Russian President Vladimir Putin’s global ratings have sunk to 20-year lows as the Russia invasion of Ukraines enters its fourth month, according to a Pew Research Center poll published Wednesday.
www.themoscowtimes.com
Global Public Perception of Russia’s Leadership Eroded Sharply in 2022
A Gallup survey found that in every region of the world, public approval of Russia’s leadership plummeted in the wake of its invasion of Ukraine
www.voanews.com
