tsunami question

Yoga Face

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asspanker just posted about a tsunami warning in Australia and this got me wondering

1 Earthquake is at bottom of ocean

2 earthquake causes massive land uplift which lifts up the water

3 this becomes tsunami that travels out in a concentric circle but

Can anyone explain why a tsunami can travel half way around the world and still be destructive?

You would think as the diameter of the circle shaped wave got larger the size of the wave would dissipate. Why does not the energy, that is stored in the size of the wave, dissipate into a smaller wave ? as the wave gets bigger it should proportionately smaller.
:confused:
 
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From National Geographic:

The most infamous tsunami of modern times hit Indian Ocean shorelines on the day after Christmas 2004. That tsunami is believed to have packed the energy of 23,000 Hiroshima-type atomic bombs. Some 150,000 people were killed in a single day.

A tsunami is a series of ocean waves that sends surges of water, sometimes reaching heights of over 100 feet (30.5 meters), onto land. These walls of water can cause widespread destruction when they crash ashore.

These awe-inspiring waves are typically caused by large, undersea earthquakes at tectonic plate boundaries. When the ocean floor at a plate boundary rises or falls suddenly it displaces the water above it and launches the rolling waves that will become a tsunami.

Most tsunamis, about 80 percent, happen within the Pacific Ocean’s “Ring of Fire,” a geologically active area where tectonic shifts make volcanoes and earthquakes common.

Tsunamis may also be caused by underwater landslides or volcanic eruptions. They may even be launched, as they frequently were in Earth’s ancient past, by the impact of a large meteorite plunging into an ocean.

Tsunamis race across the sea at up to 500 miles (805 kilometers) an hour—about as fast as a jet airplane. At that pace they can cross the entire expanse of the Pacific Ocean in less than a day. And their long wavelengths mean they lose very little energy along the way.

In deep ocean, tsunami waves may appear only a foot or so high. But as they approach shoreline and enter shallower water they slow down and begin to grow in energy and height. The tops of the waves move faster than their bottoms do, which causes them to rise precipitously.

A tsunami’s trough, the low point beneath the wave’s crest, often reaches shore first. When it does, it produces a vacuum effect that sucks coastal water seaward and exposes harbor and sea floors. This retreating of sea water is an important warning sign of a tsunami, because the wave’s crest and its enormous volume of water typically hit shore five minutes or so later. Recognizing this phenomenon can save lives.

A tsunami is usually composed of a series of waves, called a wave train, so its destructive force may be compounded as successive waves reach shore. People experiencing a tsunami should remember that the danger may not have passed with the first wave and should await official word that it is safe to return to vulnerable locations.

Some tsunamis do not appear on shore as massive breaking waves but instead resemble a quickly surging tide that inundates coastal areas.

The best defense against any tsunami is early warning that allows people to seek higher ground. The Pacific Tsunami Warning System, a coalition of 26 nations headquartered in Hawaii, maintains a web of seismic equipment and water level gauges to identify tsunamis at sea. Similar systems are proposed to protect coastal areas worldwide.
 
elmo said:
And their long wavelengths mean they lose very little energy along the way.

Thanks elmo but I am still confused as I do not see what WAVELENGTH HAS TO DO WITH IT.


By the time it travels 3000 miles its diameter must have expanded many fold, perhaps by a factor of hundreds or even many thousands, so why did the wave not dissipate ?

What has wave length got to do with it? It is the expansion of its diameter that matters!
 
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A short answer is volume, speed and water doesn't compress.

All the water that gathers momentum out in the open ocean going miles with no impediment, then is funneled into a smaller and smaller space as the ocean floor rises. Actually the water doesn't move much laterally, mostly up and down, but the energy wave moves incredibly fast.
 
blackrock13 said:
A short answer is volume, speed and water doesn't compress.

All the water that gathers momentum out in the open ocean going miles with no impediment, then is funneled into a smaller and smaller space as the ocean floor rises. Actually the water doesn't move much laterally, mostly up and down, but the energy wave moves incredibly fast.


Thank you blackrock



I do not see how it would gather momentum though as there is no energy source pushing it so it should slow down, or do waves slow down ? You would think so.

That the ocean floor rises is essential in its destruction but what does the length of the wave has to do with it?

National geographic states :

" And their long wavelengths mean they lose very little energy along the way."

I repeat that the size of its diameter, which has dramatically increased and continues to do so, should be the only factor here as the same amount of energy has to cover a greater, by many fold, wave size

Unless I am missing an obvious point something is happening here that defies common sense
 
you have a point YOGA.

But..you are not considering the SHEER size that initiates these things. It is so deep and powerful (Look at bomb comparison above)

So..while the 'wave' may be gaining in diameter...the deep sea becomes shallower and shallower as it approaches land...OFFSETTING...any of that legitimate power loss you speak of in the expanding circle.

Think about it....the large wave may start in 12 miles deep of water.

That entire wave..although growing bigger in diameter - now comes ashore in decreasing depths down to feet ..then inches.

So your theory was actually borne out in the big one off Indonesia.
Indonesia WAS hit hard.......furthermore...the east coast of Africa was also hit HARD.....but not as severe.

You have to get your mind around HOW BIG and POWERFUL the initiation point is.
ITS HUGE!!!!
 
GOLEAFSGO67 said:
So..while the 'wave' may be gaining in diameter...the deep sea becomes shallower and shallower as it approaches land...OFFSETTING...any of that legitimate power loss you speak of in the expanding circle.


To restate the quote from national geographic:

"And their long wavelengths mean they lose very little energy along the way."

They do not state the wave retains its energy because the ocean gets shallower.

And back to the other question I thought of:

Do waves slow down as they travel?

If not, why not?

If they are not losing energy(speed) then they defy the laws of thermodynamics and thus become the solution to the energy crisis
 
Here is your answer - Have a read

Wave motion
Anyone having watched water waves rippling outward from the point where a stone was thrown in, should have noticed how effortlessly waves can propagate along the water's surface. Wherever we see water, we see its surface stirred by waves. Indeed, witnessing a lake or sea flat like a mirror, is rather unusual. Yet, as familiar we are with waves, we are unfamiliar with how water particles can join forces to make such waves.

Waves are oscillations in the water's surface. For oscillations to exist and to propagate, like the vibrating of a guitar string or the standing waves in a flute, there must be a returning force that brings equilibrium. The tension in a string and the pressure of the air are such forces. Without these, neither the string nor the flute could produce tones. The standing waves in musical instruments bounce their energy back and forth inside the string or the flute's cavity. The oscillations that are passed to the air are different in that they travel in widening spheres outward. These travelling waves have a direction and speed in addition to their tone or timbre. In air their returning force is the compression of the air molecules. In surface waves, the returning force is gravity, the pull of the Earth. Hence the name 'gravity waves' for water waves.

In solids, the molecules are tightly connected together, which prevents them from moving freely, but they can vibrate. Water is a liquid and its molecules are allowed to move freely although they are placed closely together. In gases, the molecules are surrounded by vast expanses of vacuum space, which allows them to move freely and at high speed. In all these media, waves are propagated by compression of the medium. However, the surface waves between two media (water and air), behave very different and solely under the influence of gravity, which is much weaker than that of elastic compression, the method by which sound propagates.


The specific volume of sea water changes by only about 4 thousands of 1 percent (4E-5) under a pressure change of one atmosphere (1 kg/cm2). This may seem insignificant, but the Pacific Ocean would stand about 50m higher, except for compression of the water by virtue of its own weight, or about 22cm higher in the absence of the atmosphere. Since an atmosphere is about equal to a column of water 10m high, the force of gravity is about 43 times weaker than that of elastic compression.
Surface tension (which forms droplets) exerts a stress parallel to the surface, equivalent to only one 74 millionth (1.4E-8) of an atmosphere. Its restoring force depends on the curvature of the surface and is still smaller. Nevertheless it dominates the behaviour of small ripples (capillary waves), whose presence greatly contributes to the roughness (aerodynamic drag) of the sea surface, and hence, to the efficiency with which can generate larger waves and currents. (Van Dorn, 1974)

If each water particle makes small oscillations around its spot, relative to its neighbours, waves can form if all water particles move at the same time and in directions that add up to the wave's shape and direction. Because water has a vast number of molecules, the height of waves is theoretically unlimited. In practice, surface waves can be sustained as high as 70% of the water's depth or some 3000m in a 4000m deep sea (Van Dorn, 1974).
Note that the water particles do not travel but only their collective energy does! Waves that travel far and fast, undulate slowly, requiring the water particles to make slow oscillations, which reduces friction and loss of energy.

In the diagram some familiar terms are shown. A floating object is observed to move in perfect circles when waves oscillate harmoniously sinus-like in deep water. If that object hovered in the water, like a water particle, it would be moving along diminishing circles, when placed deeper in the water. At a certain depth, the object would stand still. This is the wave's base, precisely half the wave's length. Thus long waves (ocean swell) extend much deeper down than short waves (chop). Waves with 100 metres between crests are common and could just stir the bottom down to a depth of 50m. Note that the depth of a wave has little to do with its height! But a wave's height contains the wave's energy, which is unrelated to the wave's length. Long surface waves travel faster and further than short ones. Note also that the forward movement of the water under a crest in shallow water is faster than the backward movement under its trough. By this difference, sand is swept forward towards the beach.


Water waves can store or dissipate much energy. Like other waves (alternating electric currents, e.g.), a wave's energy is proportional to the square of its height (potential). Thus a 3m high wave has 3x3=9 times more energy than a 1m high wave. When fine-weather waves of about 1m height pound on the beach, they dissipate an average of 10kW (ten one-bar heaters) per metre of beach or the power of a small car at full throttle, every five metres. (Ref Douglas L Inman in Oceanography, the last frontier, 1974). Attempts to harness the energy from waves have failed because they require large structures over large areas and these structures should be capable of surviving storm conditions with energies hundreds of times larger than they were designed to capture.

Waves have a direction and speed. Sound waves propagate by compressing the medium. They can travel in water about 4.5 times faster than in air, about 1500m per second (5400km/s, or mach-4.5, depending on temperature and salinity). Such waves can travel in all directions and reach the bottom of the ocean (about 4km) in less than a second. Surface waves, however, are limited by the density of water and the pull of gravity. They can travel only along the surface and their wave lengths can at most be about twice the average depth of the ocean (2 x 4 km). The fastest surface waves observed, are those caused by tsunamis. The 'tidal wave' caused by an under-sea earthquake in Chile in May 1960, covered the 6000 nautical miles (11,000km) to New Zealand in about 12 hours, travelling at a speed of about 900 km/hr! When it arrived, it caused an oscillation in water level of 0.6m at various places along the coast, 1.4m in Tauranga Harbour and 2.4m in Whitianga harbour. Note that tsunamis reach their minimum at about 6000 km distance. Beyond that, the curvature of the Earth bends the wave fronts to focus them again at a distance of about 12,000 km, where they can still cause considerable damage.


The relationship between wave speed (phase velocity) and depth of long surface waves in shallow water is given by the formula
c x c = g x d x (p2 - p1) / p2 or
c x c= g x d for water/air
where c= wave speed, g= acceleration of gravity (9.8066 m/s/s), d= wave depth (or upper layer depth, m), p2= density of water (=1) and p1= density of air (= 0.00125).
The formula states that wave speed increases with wave depth and the relative difference in density.
For an ocean depth of 4000m, a wave's celerity or speed would be about SQR(10 x 4000) = 200 m/s = 720 km/hr. Surface waves could theoretically travel much faster on larger planets, in media denser than water.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For deep water, the relationship between speed and wavelength is given by the formula:
l = g x t x t / (2 x pi)
l = t x c for all kinds of waves, substitute in above equation: t x c = g x t x t / (2 x pi)
c = g x t / (2 x pi) or t = c x 2 x pi / g or t = c x 0.641 (s)
where t= wave period (sec), f= wave frequency, l= wave length (m) and pi=3.1415...
to calculate c and l from wave period t (in sec): c = t x 1.56 m/s= t x 5.62 km/hr = t x 3.0 knot
l = 1.56 x t x t (metres)
Thus waves with a period of 10 seconds, travel at 56 km/hr with a wave length of about 156m. A 60 knot (110 km/hr) gale can produce in 24 hours waves with periods of 17 seconds and wave lengths of 450m. Such waves travel close to the wind's speed (97 km/hr). A tsunami travelling at 200 m/s has a wave period of 128 s, and a wave length of 25,600 m.

These two diagrams show the relationships between wave speed and period for various depths (left), and wave length and period (right), for periodic, progressive surface waves. (Adapted from Van Dorn, 1974) Note that the term phase velocity is more precise than wave speed.
The period of waves is easy to measure using a stopwatch, whereas wave length and speed are not. In the left picture, the red line gives the linear relationship between wave speed and wave period. A 12 second swell in deep water travels at about 20m/s or 72 km/hr. From the red line in the right diagram, we can see that such swell has a wave length between crests of about 250m.
When the 12s swell enters 10m shallow water (follow the green curve for 10m), its speed will halve to 10m/s (left graph) and so will its wave length (right graph). But the height of the wave increases by a similar factor (not shown here).
 
More Q and A

How fast do tsunami waves travel?
In the open ocean, tsunami waves travel at 600kph to 700kph. In the deep ocean, waves from a large tsunami may be as little as 60cm high. They pass ships unnoticed. As they encounter shallow water, they slow down to about 30kph and increase in height.

Is a tsunami a dream come true for extreme surfers?
No. A tsunami is not a wave in the classical sense, but a raging torrent of water that surges inland with enormous power - much more power than a surfer can handle. Besides the waves do not stop at the shore, so surfers may find that they crash into buildings or all the other debris caught up in the surging water. Invariably a tsunami consists of successive surges or torrents and equally violent return flow to the sea. The first wave or torrent of a tsunami is not necessarily the biggest. The second or third or even much later waves may be bigger. Intervals between successive waves can vary. It may just be minutes, or it could be more than an hour.


How far inland can a tsunami go?
In low-lying coastal areas they can travel a long way inland. In parts of Thailand, the tsunami went 3 km inland destroying almost everything in its path. In Banda Aceh, the tsunami surged 6km inland.
 
Thankyou goleafs.


I have made it an easier read for those interested along with my comments and have quoted some interesting trivia you will never need

GOLEAFSGO67 said:
In surface waves, the returning force is gravity, the pull of the Earth. Hence the name 'gravity waves' for water waves.

Water is a liquid and its molecules are allowed to move freely although they are placed closely together.

In all these media, waves are propagated by compression of the medium. However, the surface waves between two media (water and air), behave very different and solely under the influence of gravity, which is much weaker than that of elastic compression, the method by which sound propagates.

this means water can be compressed

GOLEAFSGO67 said:
the Pacific Ocean would stand about 50m higher, except for compression of the water by virtue of its own weight


Because water has a vast number of molecules, the height of waves is theoretically unlimited. In practice, surface waves can be sustained as high as 70%


Note also that the forward movement of the water under a crest in shallow water is faster than the backward movement under its trough. By this difference, sand is swept forward towards the beach.


Water waves can store or dissipate much energy. Like other waves (alternating electric currents, e.g.), a wave's energy is proportional to the square of its height (potential). Thus a 3m high wave has 3x3=9 times more energy than a 1m high wave.



Attempts to harness the energy from waves have failed because they require large structures over large areas and these structures should be capable of surviving storm conditions with energies hundreds of times larger than they were designed to capture.

Here is the answer. It is the curvature of the earth!

GOLEAFSGO67 said:
Note that tsunamis reach their minimum at about 6000 km distance. Beyond that, the curvature of the Earth bends the wave fronts to focus them again at a distance of about 12,000 km, where they can still cause considerable damage.
 
Yoga Face said:
asspanker just posted about a tsunami warning in Australia and this got me wondering

1 Earthquake is at bottom of ocean

2 earthquake causes massive land uplift which lifts up the water

3 this becomes tsunami that travels out in a concentric circle but

Can anyone explain why a tsunami can travel half way around the world and still be destructive?

You would think as the diameter of the circle shaped wave got larger the size of the wave would dissipate. Why does not the energy, that is stored in the size of the wave, dissipate into a smaller wave ?
:confused:

Other posts have all the physics I think..but to your original question...I think you are right if the world was all water...the force would decrease with distance (by some function of pi squared). And while I think that does happen anyway...I think the shape of the various seas and oceans and constraints of "shape" may funnel and/or carry the energy in ways that are not concentric circles. Say the original fault or area that moved is only a few miles wide, yes...the force would radiate out in concentric circles for a while, but then refocus as it is channelled by land perhaps.

A large fault along a coastline might be an example of this...since no displacement energy can be dissipated to the rear of the fault it would all have to find its way forward, which then could be further channelled by coastlines to one side or the other. Once the water displacement is then focused it might travel a long ways without losing significant energy - as long wave-length waves.
 
Everything is enlightening and probably correct. At this point I'm so glad I tried to give you a simplified answer. i've never surfed but have canoed and sailed and I'm very respectful of the power of the ocean. I've been in 40 foot seas in the North Atlantic and it was a rush.
 
I think it has something to do with sea monsters. Of course you could always go with the egghead answer.
 
"Note that tsunamis reach their minimum at about 6000 km distance. Beyond that, the curvature of the Earth bends the wave fronts to focus them again at a distance of about 12,000 km, where they can still cause considerable damage"



I guess this means the wave continues to widen (as well as lengthen) until the curvature of the earth affects the wave shape.

I am not sure if the 6000 km refers to the length of the wave or the distance traveled. My guess is the distance traveled

Any thoughts?

Just trying to sharpen up my mind :D
 
Mencken said:
Other posts have all the physics I think..but to your original question...I think you are right if the world was all water...the force would decrease with distance (by some function of pi squared). And while I think that does happen anyway...I think the shape of the various seas and oceans and constraints of "shape" may funnel and/or carry the energy in ways that are not concentric circles. Say the original fault or area that moved is only a few miles wide, yes...the force would radiate out in concentric circles for a while, but then refocus as it is channeled by land perhaps.

A large fault along a coastline might be an example of this...since no displacement energy can be dissipated to the rear of the fault it would all have to find its way forward, which then could be further channeled by coastlines to one side or the other. Once the water displacement is then focused it might travel a long ways without losing significant energy - as long wave-length waves.


Good thinking Mencken

Also I suspect the shape of the earth (round) and that waves are caused by gravity ( this brings the moon and the sun into the equation) gives the fluid property of waves a peculiar dynamic that is complex and goes against common sense.

For example, going to the back side on an island will not save you as the wave will wrap around and be even more destructive on the other side. You must go to high ground.

Also, the biggest waves are formed when a volcanic island collapses. As a mountain side slides into the ocean it goes in at such a velocity it drags air with it and the water comes rushing back before the air escapes which almost doubles the wave size

One such collapse-able island - the mountain face has already slide ten feet then stopped thank the Gods! - faces the east coast so goodbye New York, Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Miami ...