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Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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mitchell76

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Aug 10, 2010
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Ten bad takeaways from the Zelenskyy blow-up 1. Zelenskyy does not grasp—or deliberately ignores—the bitter truth: those with whom he feels most affinity (Western globalists, the American Left, the Europeans) have little power in 2025 to help him. And those with whom he obviously does not like or seeks to embarrass (cf. his Scranton, Penn. campaign-like visit in September 2024) alone have the power to save him. For his own sake, I hope he is not being “briefed” by the Obama-Clinton-Biden gang to confront Trump, given their interests are not really Ukraine’s as they feign. 2. Zelenskyy acts as if his agendas and ours are identical. So, he keeps insisting that he is fighting for us despite our two-ocean-distance that he mocks. We do have many shared interests with Ukraine, but not all by any means: Trump wants to “reset” with Russia and triangulate it against China. He seeks to avoid a 1962 DEFCON 2-like crisis over a proxy showdown in proximity to a nuclear rival. And he sincerely wants to end the deadlocked Stalingrad slaughterhouse for everyone’s sake. 3. The Europeans (and Canada) are now talking loudly of a new muscular antithesis, independent of the U.S. Promises, promises—given that would require Europeans to prune back their social welfare state, frack, use nuclear, stop the green obsessions, and spend 3-5 percent of their GDP on defense. The U.S. does not just pay 16 percent of NATO’s budget but also puts up with asymmetrical tariffs that result in a European Union trade surplus of $160 billion, plays the world cop patrolling sea-lanes and deterring terrorists and rogues states that otherwise might interrupt Europe’s commercial networks abroad, as well as de facto including Europe under a nuclear umbrella of 6,500 nukes. 4. Zelenskyy must know that all of the once deal-stopping issues to peace have been de facto settled: Ukraine is now better armed than most NATO nations, but will not be in NATO; and no president has or will ever supply Ukraine with the armed wherewithal to take back the Donbass and Crimea. So, the only two issues are a) how far will Putin be willing to withdraw to his 2022 borders and b) how will he be deterred? The first is answered by a commercial sector/tripwire, joint Ukrainian-US-Europe resource development corridor in Eastern Ukraine, coupled with a Korea-like DMZ; the second by the fact that Putin unlike his 2008 and 2014 invasions has now lost a million dead and wounded to a Ukraine that will remain thusly armed. 5. What are Zelenskyy’s alternatives without much U.S. help—wait for a return of the Democrats to the White House in four years? Hope for a rearmed Europe? Pray for a Democratic House and a 3rd Vindman-like engineered Trump impeachment? Or swallow his pride, return to the White House, sign the rare-earth minerals deal, invite in the Euros (are they seriously willing to patrol a DMZ?), and hope Trump can warn Putin, as he did successfully between 2017-21, not to dare try it again? 6. If there is a cease fire, a commercial deal, a Euro ground presence, and influx of Western companies into Ukraine, would there be elections? And if so, would Zelenskyy and his party win? And if not, would there be a successor transparent government that would reveal exactly where all the Western financial aid money went? 7. Zelenskyy might see a model in Netanyahu. The Biden Administration was far harder on him than Trump is on Ukraine: suspending arms shipments, demanding cease-fires, prodding for a wartime, bipartisan cabinet, hammering Israel on collateral damage—none of which Westerners have demanded of Zelenskyy. Yet Netanyahu managed a hostile Biden, kept Israel close to its patron, and when visiting was gracious to his host. Netanyahu certainly would never before the global media have interrupted, and berated a host and patron president in the White House. 8. If Ukraine has alienated the U.S. what then is its strategic victory plan? Wait around for more Euros? Hold off an increasingly invigorated Russian military? Cede more territory? What, then, exactly are Zelenskyy’s cards he seems to think are a winning hand? 9. If one views carefully all the 50-minute tape, most of it was going quite well—until Zelenskyy started correcting Vance firstly, and Trump secondly. By Ukraine-splaining to his hosts, and by his gestures, tone, and interruptions, he made it clear that he assumed that Trump was just more of the same compliant, clueless moneybags Biden waxen effigy. And that was naïve for such a supposedly worldly leader. 10. March 2025 is not March 2022, after the heroic saving of Kyiv—but three years and 1.5 million dead and wounded later. Zelenskyy is no longer the international heartthrob with the glamorous entourage. He has postponed elections, outlawed opposition media and parties, suspended habeas corpus and walked out of negotiations when he had an even hand in Spring 2022 and apparently even now when he does not in Spring 2025. Quo vadis, Volodymyr?
 

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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For every government worker he lays off, it will translate to probably 5 friends or family members not voting for him.

When the American people's pockets start to feel it, watch out.
I thought of that. That's one of the issues with expansive governments. Too many people directly or indirectly have a vested interest in government employment.

In reality, most of Federal bureaucrats probably support Democrats. It's also likely their immediate families do as well. Friends that generally support Republicans or who are truly independent likely won't vote in sympathy.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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For every government worker he lays off, it will translate to probably 5 friends or family members not voting for him.

When the American people's pockets start to feel it, watch out.
There is a reason they are working so hard at the disenfranchisement part of the plan.
 

261252

Nobodies business if I do
Sep 26, 2007
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Trump says counties are taking advantage of USA with bad trade deals while giving zero evidence. He points to the free trade agreement between USA, Mexico and Canada as an example.

President Donald Trump is outraged that Americans are footing an unfair financial burden, citing a 2020 trade deal called the U.S.-Mexico-Canada

Trump signed that agreement
 
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WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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Why wouldn't it apply, Earp?

Finns, Latvians and Swedes seem pretty fucking convinced it applies. Guess they're not as smart as you then?
It's called an opinion. I made my case. Deal with it.

If I lived on Russia's border, I might want to continue supporting the war until Russia was vanquished and perhaps dismembered into smaller pieces. The former Estonian Prime minister now in EU leadership has thrown this out there.

Again I will offer an opinion, I don't see a Russian capitulation or collapse anytime soon. Strangely, some people think that there is a type of unconditional surrender (like WW2) over the horizon.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Good point.

Saager's commentary is hardly unique. I think you would have to agree there are clear, partisan demarcations forming in the U.S. on the Ukraine war.
And that is a problem.

You can blame Trump for that, but I think the American public has become more transactional when it comes to foreign conflicts. This I believe pre-dates Trump.
There absolutely is a partisan demarcation.
There is almost nothing in the US that doesn't have that anymore.

The US public has always been somewhat suspicious and distant from foreign entanglement, and Trump has pushed that further to the forefront, but it does predate him, as you say.
 
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