Trump gets a $355 million kick to the crotch, will he pay up?

[SchlongConery]

Shlong the point is there was no victim and no one lost money. The banks testified as much, said all loans were paid, and they would loan to him again.

Butler, the point is that it is an act of fraud to misrepresent something to seek an advantage you would otherwise may not be entitled to. That is to say that the mere credit application using false information is an act of fraud.

Doesn't matter if the fraudulent application resulted in a loan that was paid back in full. Or if the bank was happy or it made money.

The mere misrepresentation is fraud.

The 'victim' is the public in this case.

Among other risks to society and the financial system, if people are given a pass if their fraud pays off with nobody losing money, then what discourages others from trying the same scheme themselves? And the resultant harms to society and the financial system for the frauds in which people do lose money? Lots of stories of well meaning financial genius' finding themselves in a tight spot and doubling down on their promises to raise more money from their existing investors to try to recover honestly lost investments. Using that money to keep the original investors invested and not bailing out. Many Ponzi schemes start out honestly.

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to civil litigation. Alleging fraud is about as serious of an accusation as a plaintiff can make in Civil Court.

You better have a very strong case with real evidence. Otherwise you risk not only your case being thrown out in its entirety, but the Judge will impose serious sanctions against the party alleging fraud. The implications can be worse than contempt of court or perjury!

Unlike in Canada, in the USA, the losing party is not liable for costs. Even if you win in the USA, you don't get your costs reimbursed. But if fraud is alleged and not proven, the Court pretty much awards costs against the party alleging unproven fraud as well as punitive damages.

Dismissing or accepting the nonsense that some old Judge close to retirement is part of some global secret cabal, the Judge had better be absolutely certain that the alleged frauds did, in fact, occur. Especially when he could determine the facts and render a judgement based solely on the written submissions and documentary evidence. Trump had ample opportunity to make his arguments and enter evidence as to the veracity of the fraud claims. He didn't.

All that you saw was the penalty assessment phase. That is where Trump belligerently grandstanded about the values being accurate etc. That ship had already sailed. He used the penalty hearings as some lame grandstand to try to re-argue the case he had already lost. And in doing so, cost him half a billion dollars. Which may very well be the end of his business empire.

Had he shown any sort of contrition, even with excuses, and promised to make sure it doesn't happen again, he might have saved himself a few hundred million and his empire.

Kevin O'Leary has been quite vocal on it but many real estate developers all say the same thing. Its been common practice.

Butler, trust me on this ONE thing if anything. Do not rely on what Kevin O'Leary says. First and foremost, he is a self-admitted short, bald attention-seeking entertainer. He craftily represents himself as a billionaire. He is not. Don't get me wrong, Kevin is a brilliant guy, with a sharp mind and a skill for communicating like few others.

Real estate developers who lie to the banks quickly get blacklisted. Unless you already owe them hundreds of millions. Then they will ask you to go along with their lies!

There is a saying; "If you owe the bank a million dollars and they want their money back, you are in trouble. If you owe the bank a billion dollars and they want their money back, they are in trouble.

So now it becomes as much about a DA who stated she would specifically target Trump during her campaign, but is not applying the law equally.

She indeed targeted Trump. Trump paints a on his forehead every time he brags about his wealth and how he knows how to game the corrupt system himself! The tallest blade of grass is the first to get cut too!

As for not applying the law equally? Do you mean to say that because not every fraudster is pursued, that none can be pursued?

First off, just because you didn't get the thousands of other cases in the system pushed to your right wing social media feed through Twitter and/or Truth Social and/or Fox, doesn't mean hundreds of credit and other financial fraud cases are not investigated or brought to court every day.

Would you like to see GOP DA's doing the same to Dem candidates?

YES! Damn straight! Fucking right I would!!! Bring it on! Charge or bring civil litigation against Joe Biden for whatever, if there is real evidence. I am NOT a tribalist.

I have seen so much fraud in the real estate and development biz and the chaos it causes to everyday people that I want any fraudsters pursued. And especially those seeking or holding public office!

The law this is based is flimsy and will probably result in a successful appeal.

What experience or insight into the actual case do you have to say "probably'? Hope is not grounds for an appeal.

Fuck, not even Trump's lawyers are claiming "the law" is "flimsy" . I assume you mean the 'statute' is flimsy. He was not charged criminally. "The law" you say is flimsy is based on hundreds of years of case law and the principles of res judicata are not easily overturned.

The appeal has to be based on errors of law. Not re-trying the facts of the case. Karen threatening to call for the Manager does not work.

Having said that.... if Trump's appeal before a panel of Appellate Court Judges, is unsuccessful, will you accept that he is fraudster then?

 

[mitchell76]

Butler, the point is that it is an act of fraud to misrepresent something to seek an advantage you would otherwise may not be entitled to. That is to say that the mere credit application using false information is an act of fraud.

Doesn't matter if the fraudulent application resulted in a loan that was paid back in full. Or if the bank was happy or it made money.

The mere misrepresentation is fraud.

The 'victim' is the public in this case.

Among other risks to society and the financial system, if people are given a pass if their fraud pays off with nobody losing money, then what discourages others from trying the same scheme themselves? And the resultant harms to society and the financial system for the frauds in which people do lose money? Lots of stories of well meaning financial genius' finding themselves in a tight spot and doubling down on their promises to raise more money from their existing investors to try to recover honestly lost investments. Using that money to keep the original investors invested and not bailing out. Many Ponzi schemes start out honestly.

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to civil litigation. Alleging fraud is about as serious of an accusation as a plaintiff can make in Civil Court.

You better have a very strong case with real evidence. Otherwise you risk not only your case being thrown out in its entirety, but the Judge will impose serious sanctions against the party alleging fraud. The implications can be worse than contempt of court or perjury!

Unlike in Canada, in the USA, the losing party is not liable for costs. Even if you win in the USA, you don't get your costs reimbursed. But if fraud is alleged and not proven, the Court pretty much awards costs against the party alleging unproven fraud as well as punitive damages.

Dismissing or accepting the nonsense that some old Judge close to retirement is part of some global secret cabal, the Judge had better be absolutely certain that the alleged frauds did, in fact, occur. Especially when he could determine the facts and render a judgement based solely on the written submissions and documentary evidence. Trump had ample opportunity to make his arguments and enter evidence as to the veracity of the fraud claims. He didn't.

All that you saw was the penalty assessment phase. That is where Trump belligerently grandstanded about the values being accurate etc. That ship had already sailed. He used the penalty hearings as some lame grandstand to try to re-argue the case he had already lost. And in doing so, cost him half a billion dollars. Which may very well be the end of his business empire.

Had he shown any sort of contrition, even with excuses, and promised to make sure it doesn't happen again, he might have saved himself a few hundred million and his empire.




Butler, trust me on this ONE thing if anything. Do not rely on what Kevin O'Leary says. First and foremost, he is a self-admitted short, bald attention-seeking entertainer. He craftily represents himself as a billionaire. He is not. Don't get me wrong, Kevin is a brilliant guy, with a sharp mind and a skill for communicating like few others.

Real estate developers who lie to the banks quickly get blacklisted. Unless you already owe them hundreds of millions. Then they will ask you to go along with their lies!

There is a saying; "If you owe the bank a million dollars and they want their money back, you are in trouble. If you owe the bank a billion dollars and they want their money back, they are in trouble.




She indeed targeted Trump. Trump paints a on his forehead every time he brags about his wealth and how he knows how to game the corrupt system himself! The tallest blade of grass is the first to get cut too!

As for not applying the law equally? Do you mean to say that because not every fraudster is pursued, that none can be pursued?

First off, just because you didn't get the thousands of other cases in the system pushed to your right wing social media feed through Twitter and/or Truth Social and/or Fox, doesn't mean hundreds of credit and other financial fraud cases are not investigated or brought to court every day.





YES! Damn straight! Fucking right I would!!! Bring it on! Charge or bring civil litigation against Joe Biden for whatever, if there is real evidence. I am NOT a tribalist.

I have seen so much fraud in the real estate and development biz and the chaos it causes to everyday people that I want any fraudsters pursued. And especially those seeking or holding public office!



What experience or insight into the actual case do you have to say "probably'? Hope is not grounds for an appeal.

Fuck, not even Trump's lawyers are claiming "the law" is "flimsy" . I assume you mean the 'statute' is flimsy. He was not charged criminally. "The law" you say is flimsy is based on hundreds of years of case law and the principles of res judicata are not easily overturned.

The appeal has to be based on errors of law. Not re-trying the facts of the case. Karen threatening to call for the Manager does not work.

Having said that.... if Trump's appeal before a panel of Appellate Court Judges, is unsuccessful, will you accept that he is fraudster then?

If Trump wasn't the leading GOP Presidential candidate, this joke Engoron trial wouldn't have been consummated in the first place.

 

[mandrill]

Guys, read the judgment. The ludicrous capers and bullshit of the Trump family and their lackies is just mind-blowing. It goes on for over 90 pages of just ridiculous and continual lying and bullshitting and grifting. For instance...

Donald Trump was aware of many of the key facts underpinning various material fraudulent
misstatements in the SFCs: he was aware of having deeded away the right to use Mar-a-Lago as
anything other than a social club, and notwithstanding, continued to value it as if it could be used
as a single family residence; he was aware that the Triplex apartment in which he, a real estate
mogul and self-identified expert, resided for decades was not 30,000 square feet, but actually
10,996 square feet; he was aware that he did not control the Vornado partnership interest even
though he represented it as “cash”; he was aware that he had permission to build only 500 private
residences in Aberdeen, notwithstanding that he represented that he had permission for 2500; and
he was aware that 40 Wall Street was operating at a deficit despite proclaiming that it was
running a net operating income of $64 million. As Eric Trump testified, Donald Trump sat at the
top of the pyramid of the Trump Organization until 2017. Donald Trump professed to “know
more about real estate than other people” and to be “more expert than anybody else.” TT 3487.
He repeatedly falsified business records with the intent to defraud. See People v Gordon, 23
NY3d 643, 650 (2014) (“Intent may be established by the defendant’s conduct and the
circumstances”); People v Rodriguez, 17 NY3d 486, 489 (“Because intent is an ‘invisible
operation of the mind’ direct evidence is rarely available (in the absence of an admission) and it
is unnecessary when there is legally sufficient circumstantial evidence of intent,” “noting that
‘intent can also be ‘inferred from the defendant’s conduct and the surrounding circumstances’”)
(internal citations omitted).
There is overwhelming evidence that Allen Weissberg intentionally falsified hundreds of
business records during his tenure as CEO of the Trump Organization. Weisselberg understood
that his assignment from Donald Trump was to have his reported assets increase every year
irrespective of their actual values. The examples of Weisselberg’s intent to falsify business
records are too numerous to itemize, but include, and are not limited to: concealing the square
footage of the Triplex to inflate its value by $200 million; misrepresenting to insurance
representatives that the real estate valuations found in the SFCs were prepared by outside
appraisers; directing Donna Kidder to prepare a budget for 40 Wall Street that showed a positive
net operating income, notwithstanding that 40 Wall Street was running repeated deficits; valuing
the Vornado partnership interest as cash, despite knowing that Donald Trump had no control
over it; directing Birney to remove management fees as expenses when calculating net operating
income; and certifying to banks and other third parties that all of the valuations in the SFCs were
GAAP compliant and presented at fair and accurate estimated current values, which they were
not.
There is also sufficient evidence that Donald Trump, Jr. and Eric Trump intentionally falsified
business records. They served as attorneys-in-fact for Donald Trump and were under a
heightened duty of prudence. See General Obligations Law §§ 5-1501(2)(a), 1505(1)(a),
1501(2)(a)(3). They also served as co-executives running the company from January 2017 to
today, in which they had intimate knowledge of the Trump Organization’s business, assets, and
were provided with financial updates upon request by Weisselberg and Patrick Birney. Both
Trump, Jr. and Eric Trump also continued to represent Donald Trump’s Vornado limited
partnership interest as cash, despite having been expressly advised that it was not under the
Trump Organization’s control.
Additionally, Eric Trump intentionally provided McConney with knowingly false and inflated
valuations for Seven Springs, despite having commissioned appraisals that valued Seven Springs
at a fraction of Eric Trump’s number.
Moreover, Trump, Jr., as a trustee of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, signed Management
Representation Letters to Mazars affirming the accuracy of the supporting data and signed
certifications to banks and insurance companies verifying the accuracy of the false SFCs’
contents.

 

[toguy5252]

Guys, read the judgment. The ludicrous capers and bullshit of the Trump family and their lackies is just mind-blowing. It goes on for over 90 pages of just ridiculous and continual lying and bullshitting and grifting. For instance...

Donald Trump was aware of many of the key facts underpinning various material fraudulent
misstatements in the SFCs: he was aware of having deeded away the right to use Mar-a-Lago as
anything other than a social club, and notwithstanding, continued to value it as if it could be used
as a single family residence; he was aware that the Triplex apartment in which he, a real estate
mogul and self-identified expert, resided for decades was not 30,000 square feet, but actually
10,996 square feet; he was aware that he did not control the Vornado partnership interest even
though he represented it as “cash”; he was aware that he had permission to build only 500 private
residences in Aberdeen, notwithstanding that he represented that he had permission for 2500; and
he was aware that 40 Wall Street was operating at a deficit despite proclaiming that it was
running a net operating income of $64 million. As Eric Trump testified, Donald Trump sat at the
top of the pyramid of the Trump Organization until 2017. Donald Trump professed to “know
more about real estate than other people” and to be “more expert than anybody else.” TT 3487.
He repeatedly falsified business records with the intent to defraud. See People v Gordon, 23
NY3d 643, 650 (2014) (“Intent may be established by the defendant’s conduct and the
circumstances”); People v Rodriguez, 17 NY3d 486, 489 (“Because intent is an ‘invisible
operation of the mind’ direct evidence is rarely available (in the absence of an admission) and it
is unnecessary when there is legally sufficient circumstantial evidence of intent,” “noting that
‘intent can also be ‘inferred from the defendant’s conduct and the surrounding circumstances’”)
(internal citations omitted).
There is overwhelming evidence that Allen Weissberg intentionally falsified hundreds of
business records during his tenure as CEO of the Trump Organization. Weisselberg understood
that his assignment from Donald Trump was to have his reported assets increase every year
irrespective of their actual values. The examples of Weisselberg’s intent to falsify business
records are too numerous to itemize, but include, and are not limited to: concealing the square
footage of the Triplex to inflate its value by $200 million; misrepresenting to insurance
representatives that the real estate valuations found in the SFCs were prepared by outside
appraisers; directing Donna Kidder to prepare a budget for 40 Wall Street that showed a positive
net operating income, notwithstanding that 40 Wall Street was running repeated deficits; valuing
the Vornado partnership interest as cash, despite knowing that Donald Trump had no control
over it; directing Birney to remove management fees as expenses when calculating net operating
income; and certifying to banks and other third parties that all of the valuations in the SFCs were
GAAP compliant and presented at fair and accurate estimated current values, which they were
not.
There is also sufficient evidence that Donald Trump, Jr. and Eric Trump intentionally falsified
business records. They served as attorneys-in-fact for Donald Trump and were under a
heightened duty of prudence. See General Obligations Law §§ 5-1501(2)(a), 1505(1)(a),
1501(2)(a)(3). They also served as co-executives running the company from January 2017 to
today, in which they had intimate knowledge of the Trump Organization’s business, assets, and
were provided with financial updates upon request by Weisselberg and Patrick Birney. Both
Trump, Jr. and Eric Trump also continued to represent Donald Trump’s Vornado limited
partnership interest as cash, despite having been expressly advised that it was not under the
Trump Organization’s control.
Additionally, Eric Trump intentionally provided McConney with knowingly false and inflated
valuations for Seven Springs, despite having commissioned appraisals that valued Seven Springs
at a fraction of Eric Trump’s number.
Moreover, Trump, Jr., as a trustee of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, signed Management
Representation Letters to Mazars affirming the accuracy of the supporting data and signed
certifications to banks and insurance companies verifying the accuracy of the false SFCs’
contents.

If a tree fall in a forest …

 

[mandrill]

If Trump wasn't the leading GOP Presidential candidate, this joke Engoron trial wouldn't have been consummated in the first place.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764374903308911003

 

[mandrill]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764685312167497941

 

[mitchell76]

On page 43 of Engoron's judgment, Engoron found all of Michael Cohen's (a known liar and perjurer) testimony credible. Engoron thought that Michael Cohen was a very truthful witness. Enough said......LMAO

 

[SchlongConery]

If a tree fall in a forest …

... is the man still wrong?

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764710675786428806

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764669192790294556

The US Supreme Court just ruled that Donald Trump can run for President and be on the ballot in all 50 states for the 2024 Presidential election, and that the insurrection clause doesn’t disqualify him despite how loud the communists cry about J6. UNANIMOUS VOTE! 9-0 in favor of President Trump! “All nine members of the Court agree with that result.” MAJOR L FOR THE DOJ AND EVERY SOROS FUNDED SECRETARY OF STATE! #Trump2024 https://supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-719_19m2.pdf

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764686180074070249

I hate repetitions, but I just would like to repeat that ALL 9 justices of the US Supreme Court, including Jackson, Sotomayor, Kagan, and Brown, reversed the Colorado State Supreme Court's decision to ban Trump from the ballot on the grounds that he is somehow an insurrectionist. The court UNANIMOUSLY declared that no state has the authority to make that decision.

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764705836033593680

The attempt to remove Trump from the ballot failed spectacularly. SCOTUS is taking up the immunity case. Fani Willis' Georgia RICO persecution is being revealed to be the very RICO criminality it accuses Trump of. I am predicting Fani & Nathan get removed from the case and it implodes entirely. Letitia James is up next with her lavish campaign expenses, she just doesn't understand it yet. I am predicting Engoron's absurd ruling gets overturned. It is all crumbling. And, more important, the political atmosphere is shifting. But beware: As Nuhu Ribadu said "When you fight corruption, it fights back". And to borrow from William Congreve, "hell hath no fury like a Liberal scorned".

 

[Valcazar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764686180074070249

I hate repetitions, but I just would like to repeat that ALL 9 justices of the US Supreme Court, including Jackson, Sotomayor, Kagan, and Brown, reversed the Colorado State Supreme Court's decision to ban Trump from the ballot on the grounds that he is somehow an insurrectionist. The court UNANIMOUSLY declared that no state has the authority to make that decision.

Right.
They didn't disagree that he was an insurrectionist. They just said the States can't decide that.

EDIT: Reading further, it sounds more like they just said that the states can't decide if him being an insurrectionist takes him off the ballot - not whether or not they can decide the issue in the first place. I probably need to read more closely to be sure.

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764714850545262674

 

[Valcazar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764714850545262674

Should he be out there exposing his dementia like that?

 

[SchlongConery]

If Trump wasn't the leading GOP Presidential candidate, this joke Engoron trial wouldn't have been consummated in the first place.

Good thinking Mitch!

 

[Butler1000]

Butler, the point is that it is an act of fraud to misrepresent something to seek an advantage you would otherwise may not be entitled to. That is to say that the mere credit application using false information is an act of fraud.

Doesn't matter if the fraudulent application resulted in a loan that was paid back in full. Or if the bank was happy or it made money.

The mere misrepresentation is fraud.

The 'victim' is the public in this case.

Among other risks to society and the financial system, if people are given a pass if their fraud pays off with nobody losing money, then what discourages others from trying the same scheme themselves? And the resultant harms to society and the financial system for the frauds in which people do lose money? Lots of stories of well meaning financial genius' finding themselves in a tight spot and doubling down on their promises to raise more money from their existing investors to try to recover honestly lost investments. Using that money to keep the original investors invested and not bailing out. Many Ponzi schemes start out honestly.

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to civil litigation. Alleging fraud is about as serious of an accusation as a plaintiff can make in Civil Court.

You better have a very strong case with real evidence. Otherwise you risk not only your case being thrown out in its entirety, but the Judge will impose serious sanctions against the party alleging fraud. The implications can be worse than contempt of court or perjury!

Unlike in Canada, in the USA, the losing party is not liable for costs. Even if you win in the USA, you don't get your costs reimbursed. But if fraud is alleged and not proven, the Court pretty much awards costs against the party alleging unproven fraud as well as punitive damages.

Dismissing or accepting the nonsense that some old Judge close to retirement is part of some global secret cabal, the Judge had better be absolutely certain that the alleged frauds did, in fact, occur. Especially when he could determine the facts and render a judgement based solely on the written submissions and documentary evidence. Trump had ample opportunity to make his arguments and enter evidence as to the veracity of the fraud claims. He didn't.

All that you saw was the penalty assessment phase. That is where Trump belligerently grandstanded about the values being accurate etc. That ship had already sailed. He used the penalty hearings as some lame grandstand to try to re-argue the case he had already lost. And in doing so, cost him half a billion dollars. Which may very well be the end of his business empire.

Had he shown any sort of contrition, even with excuses, and promised to make sure it doesn't happen again, he might have saved himself a few hundred million and his empire.




Butler, trust me on this ONE thing if anything. Do not rely on what Kevin O'Leary says. First and foremost, he is a self-admitted short, bald attention-seeking entertainer. He craftily represents himself as a billionaire. He is not. Don't get me wrong, Kevin is a brilliant guy, with a sharp mind and a skill for communicating like few others.

Real estate developers who lie to the banks quickly get blacklisted. Unless you already owe them hundreds of millions. Then they will ask you to go along with their lies!

There is a saying; "If you owe the bank a million dollars and they want their money back, you are in trouble. If you owe the bank a billion dollars and they want their money back, they are in trouble.




She indeed targeted Trump. Trump paints a on his forehead every time he brags about his wealth and how he knows how to game the corrupt system himself! The tallest blade of grass is the first to get cut too!

As for not applying the law equally? Do you mean to say that because not every fraudster is pursued, that none can be pursued?

First off, just because you didn't get the thousands of other cases in the system pushed to your right wing social media feed through Twitter and/or Truth Social and/or Fox, doesn't mean hundreds of credit and other financial fraud cases are not investigated or brought to court every day.





YES! Damn straight! Fucking right I would!!! Bring it on! Charge or bring civil litigation against Joe Biden for whatever, if there is real evidence. I am NOT a tribalist.

I have seen so much fraud in the real estate and development biz and the chaos it causes to everyday people that I want any fraudsters pursued. And especially those seeking or holding public office!



What experience or insight into the actual case do you have to say "probably'? Hope is not grounds for an appeal.

Fuck, not even Trump's lawyers are claiming "the law" is "flimsy" . I assume you mean the 'statute' is flimsy. He was not charged criminally. "The law" you say is flimsy is based on hundreds of years of case law and the principles of res judicata are not easily overturned.

The appeal has to be based on errors of law. Not re-trying the facts of the case. Karen threatening to call for the Manager does not work.

Having said that.... if Trump's appeal before a panel of Appellate Court Judges, is unsuccessful, will you accept that he is fraudster then?

Why? Because its unprecedented. No one has used the law like this against any real estate developers in NY ever.

Here is my point in microcosm. Right now my house has several valuations on it.

The city has X value on it(low) for tax purposes
My insurance has Y value on it for what they charge me
My Bank had Z on it for determining what to allow my for a home improvement credit line
Then the RE agent will have another to list it at.
And finally the buyer when it sells.

Which one is right? Am I defrauding the city? The two institutions? The buyer? Because they are all different. Hell they all change yearly. So which one is correct? Its why institutions send out prople, like they did for my house, physically, to determine this. And if they can afford to do this for a house, you can be damn sure they did it for a multimillion dollar property.

So RE value is not a hard number. If someone offerred my twice what my house is worth, is it fraud to accept it? If they offer half, are they criminally guilty if I accept?

What happened here is Trump and institutions negotiate over the value. The institution does it, and will give a break, to high value clients. All RE developers do it. That's the point. For a century. Value is relative.

That's why I think this one is stupid. They should have gone after him for all his UNPAID BILLS, the ones where he really did screw people over. There is a crapload load of those. And he deserves it. But this one in the end will likely be overturned or lessened. One activist judge is not going to overturn the NY RE market.

 

[Valcazar]

Here is my point in microcosm. Right now my house has several valuations on it.

The city has X value on it(low) for tax purposes
My insurance has Y value on it for what they charge me
My Bank had Z on it for determining what to allow my for a home improvement credit line
Then the RE agent will have another to list it at.
And finally the buyer when it sells.

Where's the part where you lied about how many rooms your house had, what it was zoned for, or the square footage?

 

[Butler1000]

Where's the part where you lied about how many rooms your house had, what it was zoned for, or the square footage?

It wouldn't matter. They send people out. To actually look. And they can count. And the city has actual plans. And actual zoning plans. Its called due diligence.

If I buy a property "as is", without looking at it, no inspection, and find a garage filled with junk, it's my responsibility. No different for lenders and institutions who do business. I agree Trump is an ass who did these things, but its a civil matter. And imo, one that the institutions, to keep Trump happy, ALLOWED HIM TO DO.

That's why no crime. And no need for the law. The institutions, AGREED to the vauations.

BTW, I agree Trump is a fraudster NOW. He just happens to be a good one and in this case the institutions CHOSE to let it happen for money.

 

[SchlongConery]

Why? Because its unprecedented. No one has used the law like this against any real estate developers in NY ever.

Here is my point in microcosm. Right now my house has several valuations on it.

The city has X value on it(low) for tax purposes
My insurance has Y value on it for what they charge me
My Bank had Z on it for determining what to allow my for a home improvement credit line
Then the RE agent will have another to list it at.
And finally the buyer when it sells.

Which one is right? Am I defrauding the city? The two institutions? The buyer? Because they are all different. Hell they all change yearly. So which one is correct? Its why institutions send out prople, like they did for my house, physically, to determine this. And if they can afford to do this for a house, you can be damn sure they did it for a multimillion dollar property.

So RE value is not a hard number. If someone offerred my twice what my house is worth, is it fraud to accept it? If they offer half, are they criminally guilty if I accept?

What happened here is Trump and institutions negotiate over the value. The institution does it, and will give a break, to high value clients. All RE developers do it. That's the point. For a century. Value is relative.

That's why I think this one is stupid. They should have gone after him for all his UNPAID BILLS, the ones where he really did screw people over. There is a crapload load of those. And he deserves it. But this one in the end will likely be overturned or lessened. One activist judge is not going to overturn the NY RE market.

The case is much more complicated than that.

No sense in me or anyone trying to get you to understand it except to say that if you misrepresent a fact in pursuit of inducing someone to give you something, it is fraud.