Tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, ect, ect. Have you ever been soaked?

[james t kirk]

That is utter bullshit. There are lots of examples that Mike Holmes covers on his show where home owners were taken for obscene amounts of money for the "little" amount of actual work done. I would think that home owners want a job that is done properly, to code, in a reasonable amount of time and for a reasonable cost.

Cheers

Sometimes, the owners are taken for a ride, and I do feel sorry for them.

But in 75% of the episodes, that isn't the case. (In fact, in the last couple of seasons, it was pretty close to 100 percent the fault of the owners hiring cheaps

 

[MCHONE999]

For a contractor, add in the harassment from CRA. They are on a mission to tax the cash economy, but they only harass the contractors with licenses and who file a tax return as such. Instead they should camp out at Home depot and follow every truck or trailer that needs a paint job. i had a general contracting operation for a few years, and there are other stupid costs you have to incur to be competitive. No website means no credibility, and just because facebook is free, setting up a professional looking website is not as cheap. Don't forget incorporation costs with the lawyers, and accounting fees. Some idiots will quote Kramer from Seinfeld. And say "you just WRITE IT OFF", and then you have to remember what Jerry replies " You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about do you?"
I have been out to inspect and price a lot of work, and most people seem to think you should be doing a one week repair, all materials, labour, and any equipment rentals for less than what they make in a week. I'm not talking about a bay street lawyer, but teachers, factory workers. Everyone wants to know what you will do, how and why, then they'll get a family member to do the work for a case of beer and a dinner.

 

[greyhaired]

Yes, of course there are rip off artists in every profession. But a smart person gets several quotes from suppliers prior to undertaking a significant job. You pay attention to the information that is provided in the quote and then you select the person or company you are most comfortable with. Not necessarily the one with the lowest price. I walk away from jobs all the time because the potential client won't pay to do the job properly. If you do find a contractor/ tradesman/ repair shop who does a decent job for you at a price that you come to understand is fair and reasonable, support them with repeat business! The guys and girls out there who have trucks lettered and a history in business can't afford to do lousy unsupported work. You can't do that and stay in business .

 

[plumber2]

Plumber 2

So many thoughts......

First off, and most importantly, any tradesperson who is not charging himself or his workers out at at LEAST $50.00 per hour is not going to be in business very long.

Two, the public at large are MORONS when it comes to the cost of construction. Everyone thinks they are getting ripped off, no matter what the price, unless the price is a fraction of what they expected, or some guys does them a supreme favour.

Three, the public at large HAS NO FUCKING CLUE as to the scope of work of your average project. I often have friends ask me my advice on problems or projects with their homes (and they never listen because I tell them the correct way to fix something and the correct way is going to be expensive. Long story.) But I wish I had a dime for every time I heard them say, "It's just a whatever". Ok, if it's "just a whatever", then you do it. Example. A friend wants to buy a house in Greektown off the Danforth. It's expensive. But they figure that they can rent out the basement to help pay the mortgage. Ok, whatever. He says to me, "how much to put in a basement walkout?" I say 30 grand. They stare, scoff, roll their eyes, almost choke. "It's JUST a door", they say. I smirk. "Ok, then you do it", I respond. So I go through how it's going to cost 30 grand. I add up all the scope of work. Excavation, disposal of spoils, underpin existing foundation wall, smash through existing foundation wall without bringing the back of the house down, rework said foundation wall. Sump pump system with battery backup, drains, then build the retaining wall, SM insulation under slab, rebar, stairs, light, railing, waterproofing, backfilling, grading, sod. Oh, and the price of a good door. They don't believe me and find a flunky who says he can do it for 8 or 9 grand and laugh at me, saying I don't know what I'm talking about, or I'm too rich.... Ok, whatever. Flunky starts the work. (Shows up in running shoes.) No permit, no design. Brings a door from Home Depot on his truck on day one. Long story short, he undermines their foundation (yes, door is in and foamed in place with foam everywhere.) Builds a retaining wall out of 8" block (bad block job.) Everything moves. "JTK, come help us PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE". (No, I'm not a tradesman, long story, but I know my way round better than most tradesmen.) Ends up costing them 50 grand, plus whatever they paid the flunky.)

Four, people have been watching too much Holmes on Homes and they think that what they see on Holmes is reality and that level of dream-world service is what they should get (but not have to pay for). People, Holmes is not reality. Holmes is bullshit, Mike Holmes himself is bullshit.

I am a retired plumber now not from choice but from being an industrial
plumbing and getting cheaper labour and getting one licenced trades person supervising unskilled workers what to do.
and now there are a whole load of 1/2 show watching remodelers on weekends making messes and cutting walls out oops was that" load bearing wall " and home depot weekend plumbers

and I personally hire licensed electricians it's the law and if your house catches fire due to faulty electrical work have fun getting insurance coverage

 

[james t kirk]

Homeowners may legally wire their own houses in Ontario. However, all work must be inspected (and passed) by the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority).

That said, I would not recommend that anyone who does not know what they are doing to wire a house. Changing a switch or plug is one thing, wiring a major reno is something completely different.

 

[james t kirk]

Putting things back on the home owner is a pretty weak argument. Home owners aren't in the construction business and don't know all of the ins and outs of doing any given project. That is the reason they are talking to building contractors in the first place. I will concede the point that the finishes Mike Holmes chooses are high end and over the top. However to say that the work he does beneath the finishes you see is excessive, I don't agree with. Even just fixing structure, electrical, HVAC, plumbing and insulation to minimum code would be a vast improvement to the work that he rips out because of the problems. So even just going a bit above minimum code by using better products/materials and methods, I don't have an issue with.

As with anything, there are two general categories of ways to do things, 1) properly and 2) over.

Someone else pointed out that the cheap job ends up costing the most in the end as it needs to be redone at some point.


Cheers

No, it's absolutely the homeowner's fault.

If you're doing a major renovation, your first step is to hire a good architect or engineer to draw you up a detailed set of plans and specs and a contract for a building permit / HVAC permit / Plumbing permit and suitable for tendering purposes.

Then you solicit bids from 3 or 4 reputable General Contractors, make sure that they are insured, WSIB, check references.

Once the permit is approved and construction starts, you pay your architect or engineer who drew up the plans for you to inspect the work as it progresses on at least a part time basis (a few site visits a week).

If you don't know what you're doing, or don't want to take the time to learn, in this fashion, at least you have someone working for you (other than the Contractor) who does know what they are doing. If he determines that your GC is incompetent, you will know sooner rather than later and can take the appropriate action.

So many people just (wrongly) call a contractor and think that he will know what he's doing. Recipe for disaster.

 

[stimulator]

James t. kirk is right.

 

[Ceiling Cat]

I am a retired plumber now not from choice but from being an industrial
plumbing and getting cheaper labour and getting one licenced trades person supervising unskilled workers what to do.
and now there are a whole load of 1/2 show watching remodelers on weekends making messes and cutting walls out oops was that" load bearing wall " and home depot weekend plumbers

and I personally hire licensed electricians it's the law and if your house catches fire due to faulty electrical work have fun getting insurance coverage

You have to know what your limits are, I will do thing like under the sink plumbing and changing a valve or even putting in a water heater ( electric ). I will change a light switch or socket. I do my own fluid changes on my cars and years ago, I even did valve jobs. Now engines have become so complicated that I would not dare do much more than brakes and fluid changes on a car. Know your limitations.

 

[Smallcock]

Whatever the reasons (payroll, insurance, time, etc), the cost for construction is higher than what a typical homeowner can afford.

80% of the people in this city make $39k/year or less. Changing a gasket for $240 is steep for that person any way you look at it.

 

[MCHONE999]

James t. kirk is right.

+1 on that brother.
999

 

[Serpent]

For a contractor, add in the harassment from CRA. They are on a mission to tax the cash economy, but they only harass the contractors with licenses and who file a tax return as such. Instead they should camp out at Home depot and follow every truck or trailer that needs a paint job.

The CRA does that to anyone who is an easy target. Like you said: anyone who cares to file or has tax deducted at source. They can't/won't work to get the hard targets like oh, the multi-millionaires whose names were revealed to the CRA and require innovative tax audits. Why should they? They gotta leave work at 4pm, it's a tough job!

 

[Serpent]

No, it's absolutely the homeowner's fault.

If you're doing a major renovation, your first step is to hire a good architect or engineer to draw you up a detailed set of plans and specs and a contract for a building permit / HVAC permit / Plumbing permit and suitable for tendering purposes.

Then you solicit bids from 3 or 4 reputable General Contractors, make sure that they are insured, WSIB, check references.

Once the permit is approved and construction starts, you pay your architect or engineer who drew up the plans for you to inspect the work as it progresses on at least a part time basis (a few site visits a week).

If you don't know what you're doing, or don't want to take the time to learn, in this fashion, at least you have someone working for you (other than the Contractor) who does know what they are doing. If he determines that your GC is incompetent, you will know sooner rather than later and can take the appropriate action.

So many people just (wrongly) call a contractor and think that he will know what he's doing. Recipe for disaster.

I might not agree with you on the classiness (or lack thereof) of Toronto but everything you've said here is spot on! People want to cheap it out and then they get what they deserve. You get what you pay for (without being overcharged necessarily for quality).

 

[Ceiling Cat]

The best way to go about it is to know what you can do for yourself, and if you have to call in people to do the job have an idea of what they are doing. It is the people that have no idea of what is going on that will pay the high price.

 

[SkyRider]

I've given up on "preventative" maintenance because it is getting too expensive. Better to wait till it breaks and then replace or repair it.

 

[VIPhunter]

Jeez you can jerk off for free, but many pay women similar rates per hour to 'do the job'.....

Honestly at JT Kirk wrote, what people have no idea about are the hidden costs of running a business. The Multiplier of 2.6-3 times salary is about right.

 

[james t kirk]

That is utter bullshit. There are lots of examples that Mike Holmes covers on his show where home owners were taken for obscene amounts of money for the "little" amount of actual work done. I would think that home owners want a job that is done properly, to code, in a reasonable amount of time and for a reasonable cost.

Cheers

In construction, there are three things that you can have.....

1. A good quality job

2. A reasonable price

3. A reasonable schedule.


But here's the thing......

You only get to have 2 of those 3 things. (If you're lucky.) I don't care what anyone says, you can never have all three.

Myself, the number one thing I want is quality. Nothing will haunt you forever like poor quality. After that, I want a decent price (and I will pay for quality, quality costs bucks, big bucks in fact. But I want to leave the job with the feeling that although I paid a higher price, I received a good quality project. I will pay for quality, but nothing is worse than paying for quality and getting bullshit.) Schedule is the last of my worries. When you talk to people about serious home renovations, the first question out of their mouths is, "when will it be done?" They are more worried about schedule than anything else. (And I understand that a major renovation will totally wear on you.)

You cannot have good quality, at a reasonable price, with a reasonable schedule. It doesn't exist.

So if you have a contractor who is working with you and doing a good quality job and he knows what he's doing and his price may be a little high, but he's not at the moon, you'd better thank your lucky stars and if it takes however long it takes, consider yourself fortunate. Don't bust his balls about schedule, it will only piss him off.

 

[james t kirk]

One other observation about hiring contractors.......

So many times, Contractors spout off about "code". Code this and code that. Ah, the mythical "code"

Ask to see a copy of his building code. If he's spouting off about code, hopefully, he actually owns one. Nothing worse than a guy braying away about things he's simply heard as opposed to knows and understands.

A good contractor will actually own a copy of the Ontario Building Code. (You can even buy Chapter 9 by itself (Chapter 9 being that portion of the OBC that deals with residential construction) in an easy to read format with lots of diagrams and explanation and even "better ideas".)

 

[james t kirk]

Here, for all you TERBITES considering a major Home Renovation and need to know where the fuck to start:

https://www.publications.serviceont...DE&catPath=EN#ALLCODES-Building+Code+&+Guides

POS site, hopefully this link works. Go to Page 2, it's item 510084


90 bucks and it's the best document on the market. It's Chapter 9 of the Ontario Building Code in layman's terms, complete with piles of simple to understand diagrams. Anyone who wants to build a house should have one of these. It's an easy read and at 90 bucks, it's very reasonably priced.

 

[good to go]

Last job I quoted out they did not call back, when I saw him 9 weeks later he said he did it himself following my advice. Never again will I say a word about how or why.

 

[IM469]

So if my company is paying an employee $50.00 per hour, we charge him out at anywhere from $100 to $175 per hour. Usually, we try to aim for a chargeout rate of 2.6. (Because although we may pay him $50.00 per hour, there is a 30% payroll burden (fringe, vacation, stat days, EI, Welfare, CPP, insurance, etc. all on top of that, which rounds out to about 30% burden on top. So 1.3. Double it to cover the company's overhead, fixed costs, profit, etc.

Most people do not see beyond their front door so everything you said doesn't make sense. As far as the minimum $250 /hr charge - unless you are using a StarTrek teleporter to magically appear at their front door you have a guy expecting a salary for the 30-40 minute drive to your place, gasoline, vehicle cost, insurance, etc ..... and who may find a 10 minute repair job. Now you have a customer who can't understand why $20 for ten minutes work is not enough.