Toronto Sun - Ontario teachers headed for court

[FAST]

The inside looking out

Unfortunately we have this thing called inflation which means costs of everything go up which means that if people don't get raises, they are effectively getting paid less for the same job.

THAT type response is a pretty good example of the reasons civil servant unions are dispised by the general public,...just so out of touch with reality.


FAST

 

[basketcase]

As a non-union engineer, my contract has a COLA clause. That generally has meant for the past 5 years around 2% per year (not including bonuses). Don't be pissy because you aren't seen as worthy for a raise.

 

[FAST]

An economics lesson

As a non-union engineer, my contract has a COLA clause. That generally has meant for the past 5 years around 2% per year (not including bonuses). Don't be pissy because you aren't seen as worthy for a raise.

Let me try to explain this to you,...COLA is NOT a raise.

What union sympathisers also fail to understand, they DO NOT get raises, increases in income has NOTHING to do with performance or the pay scale for their profession.

FAST

 

[Moviefan-2]

I wonder if Dalton's gang misfired today in its efforts to crush collective bargaining in Ontario?

Taking questions at a media event, Education Minister Laurel Broten said she wasn't worried about a Supreme Court challenge. She said Ontario's case is stronger than the one in British Columbia a few years back because the government has had discussions with the unions.

Broten said B.C. gave virtually no notice to public sector workers that it was changing their contracts, which meant there was “no meaningful conversation.”

By contrast, the minister said Ontario had 300 hours of negotiations with the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association before that union agreed to a wage freeze deal that the government now wants unions representing public system elementary and secondary teachers to accept.

I'm not sure what TERB's lawyers think, but that strikes me as a peculiar thing to say in advance of legislation being introduced.

It sounds like the government has been plotting to introduce wage-freeze legislation since Day One (despite public denials last spring). I'm thinking that may not sit too well with the court.

 

[basketcase]

Let me try to explain this to you,...COLA is NOT a raise.

What union sympathisers also fail to understand, they DO NOT get raises, increases in income has NOTHING to do with performance or the pay scale for their profession.

FAST

What a retarded statement. COLA is a raise. My income goes up 2%(ish) and my job stays the same. That's called a raise and exact same as a 2%/a year in a contractual raise.

As for pay scale raises, why the F! not. They have them in my profession too. In most professions people gain skills and ability as they get experience. Makes sense that a first year teacher making only $40,000 a year gets bumps as they gain experience.

All your arguments amount to is selfish whining.

 

[FAST]

Reality 101

What a retarded statement. COLA is a raise. My income goes up 2%(ish) and my job stays the same. That's called a raise and exact same as a 2%/a year in a contractual raise.

As for pay scale raises, why the F! not. They have them in my profession too. In most professions people gain skills and ability as they get experience. Makes sense that a first year teacher making only $40,000 a year gets bumps as they gain experience.

All your arguments amount to is selfish whining.

Do you even know what COLA stands for,...if you don't know the difference between COLA and a raise,...your too retarded to even discuss this point.

If you want me to explain what a raise is,…please let me know,…I’m here to help.

I’ll give you a little hint, a raise in the none unionised work force, the majority, is voluntary,…not the case with unions.

Also, your example of the first year teacher gets a bump, is too funny.
In the union environment, the employer, the government, does NOT get to pick and choose who gets an increase, in the real world, that’s not the way life is.
In the union environment, every loser gets the increase,...in the real world, does NOT happen, if you don't like that, fine, find another job.

And as far as being selfish,...that pretty much covers the teachers unions.

FAST

 

[fun-guy]

Do you even know what COLA stands for,...if you don't know the difference between COLA and a raise,...your too retarded to even discuss this point.

They are both raises in pay, COLA is for the increase in cost of goods based on CPI due to inflation, which you obviously know about, and then there's merit raise is primarly based on your performance, among some other factors. You choose not to see COLA as a raise but many people and companies do.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/business/professional-development/cost-of-living-raises.htm

 

[Moviefan-2]

The Toronto Star has decided to sell out its leftist thinking and endorse McGuinty's quashing of collective bargaining rights in Ontario:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edit...opposition-support-on-education-spending-bill

Joseph Atkinson must be rolling in his grave.

 

[FAST]

Apples and oranges

They are both raises in pay, COLA is for the increase in cost of goods based on CPI due to inflation, which you obviously know about, and then there's merit raise is primarly based on your performance, among some other factors. You choose not to see COLA as a raise but many people and companies do.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/business/professional-development/cost-of-living-raises.htm

OK,...how would one differentiate between an increase in income, including COLA, created by a union threatening to not do their job, teaching kids, and a raise given because an employee has some value to a company?

Increases to union income has nothing to do with value or performance,...only threats.

A average working dude comes home and says to wife..."hey I got a raise"...wife replies..."great...they must appreciate your work".

Union person comes home and says to wife..."hey the union got me more money"...wife replies..."I guess those union dues are for something".

Not quite the same thing,...we need different terms here.

FAST

 

[fun-guy]

Why does one have to differentiate? An increase in pay, whether only COLA, or COLA with merit, or strictly merit is still a raise. Who cares what you have to tell your spouse. I'm simply trying to tell you in either case it's a pay raise, how you want to differentiate it is irrelevant.

I remember the city workers two contracts ago, a three year deal, had raises or 3, 2 and 1% in each year. Obviously the last year wasn't even keeping up with CPI, regardless the workers looked at it as a raise, whether large or small and nobody tried to explain to their spouse what part was COLA or not. I don't know what you're getting at.

 

[FAST]

Two worlds

I'm simply trying to tell you in either case it's a pay raise, how you want to differentiate it is irrelevant.

So you feel that an earned increase in salary/income is exactly the same as an increase ubtained by a threat?

FAST

 

[oldjones]

OK,...how would one differentiate between an increase in income, including COLA, created by a union threatening to not do their job, teaching kids, and a raise given because an employee has some value to a company?

Increases to union income has nothing to do with value or performance,...only threats.

A average working dude comes home and says to wife..."hey I got a raise"...wife replies..."great...they must appreciate your work".

Union person comes home and says to wife..."hey the union got me more money"...wife replies..."I guess those union dues are for something".

Not quite the same thing,...we need different terms here.

FAST

Please supply some.

 

[oldjones]

So you feel that an earned increase in salary/income is exactly the same as an increase ubtained by a threat?

FAST

Allow me: An increase is an increase is an increase; it means only 'more than before'. If how it is obtained is significant, an additional descriptive word such as 'earned' or 'extorted', 'miserly' or 'generous' has to be attached to 'increase'. If you use just the unmodified word 'increase' by itself, no one can know that you only mean 'earned increase' and imagine they'll exclude for instance an increase 'obtained by threat'. Especially when you also use 'increase' as a general term, and no such distinction applies.

And if that is the distinction in your mind, then the real point to be discussed has nothing to do with the meaning of 'increase'. It is the meaning of 'earned' vs. 'obtained by threat'. Which peculiar personal meanings, you seem to be imagining we all share.

 

[FAST]

Well done

Allow me: An increase is an increase is an increase; it means only 'more than before'. If how it is obtained is significant, an additional descriptive word such as 'earned' or 'extorted', 'miserly' or 'generous' has to be attached to 'increase'. If you use just the unmodified word 'increase' by itself, no one can know that you only mean 'earned increase' and imagine they'll exclude for instance an increase 'obtained by threat'. Especially when you also use 'increase' as a general term, and no such distinction applies.

And if that is the distinction in your mind, then the real point to be discussed has nothing to do with the meaning of 'increase'. It is the meaning of 'earned' vs. 'obtained by threat'. Which peculiar personal meanings, you seem to be imagining we all share.

Actually,... the term in discussion was,..."raise", but hey.

I do like your suggestion of using 'extorted when commenting about union "increases" though.

I’ll be using that in all further comments.

Thanks, FAST

 

[oldjones]

So you feel that an earned increase in salary/income is exactly the same as an increase ubtained by a threat?

FAST

Sorry, I misread, but going back I see you have an equally idiosyncratic definition for 'raise' as you say. You go right ahead and get your auto-correct to always insert 'extorted' ahead of either word if you like, but without evidence it's still just bah blah.

Ya gotta back such statements up with facts, if you want to persuade anyone of anything. If all you want is to tell us what you believe, just getting the usage straight will suffice, but why bother?

 

[basketcase]

So you feel that an earned increase in salary/income is exactly the same as an increase ubtained by a threat?

FAST

The threat that exists elsewhere is having unhappy or unproductive staff which may lead to losing experienced employees.

p.s. There are enough non-union employees who also have salary grids.

I'll also mention that it this case, experienced teachers are being given a pay cut to allow the newbies to get a raise from their meager starting pay.

 

[FAST]

Too thick to get through

The threat that exists elsewhere is having unhappy or unproductive staff which may lead to losing experienced employees.

ONE employee,...does NOT equal a union,...and...if the employee is important,...they will get the going rate,...if not they are free to leave.
Still has NOTHING in common with the union environment, were every loser gets an extorted increase.

I'll also mention that it this case, experienced teachers are being given a pay cut to allow the newbies to get a raise from their meager starting pay.

A pay freeze in NOT the same as a pay cut.!!!
Besides,...$40,000 for 6 months to start,..ain't bad at all.

FAST

I'm done here, don't enjoy banging my head against a wall

 

[Moviefan-2]

The unions for the public elementary and secondary teachers are scheduled to hold a news conference on Thursday morning.

Stay tuned...

 

[shakenbake]

Besides,...$40,000 for 6 months to start,..ain't bad at all.

FAST

I'm done here, don't enjoy banging my head against a wall

More like 10 months, and that does NOT include all the prep time a new teacher has to put in, unpaid, to prepare a set of lesson plansfor each course, for his/her work. Although there are some bad apples out there, as with any profession, a lot of teachers have it really rough, and the training they have to go through to get a job, if they get it, is the farthest thing form a cake-walk.

 

[FAST]

Leaving out the union

More like 10 months, and that does NOT include all the prep time a new teacher has to put in, unpaid, to prepare a set of lesson plansfor each course, for his/her work. Although there are some bad apples out there, as with any profession, a lot of teachers have it really rough, and the training they have to go through to get a job, if they get it, is the farthest thing form a cake-walk.

DUDE,... I was being sarcastic, but I do know a number of teachers and some are neighbours, and they are home/not in school a LOT more than 2 months out of the year.

And I agree,...its NOT a simple stressless job, I sure as hell wouldn't want to teach a class room of me when I was in high school for example, but you still have to way in the life style and returns they get.

FAST