Toronto red light cameras

[GameBoy27]

Just so you guys know, study after study proves that red light cameras do not decrease accidents. If anything you get more rear-end accidents from people stopping quickly because they dont wanna get a ticket.

Have a look:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/subu...-camera-safety-met-20141219-story.html#page=1

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article216364010.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-red-light-cameras-dont-traffic-accidents.html

https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/increase-accidents/

https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-red-light-cameras-not-making-streets-safer

And ask yourself, if its not all about money then why would the City raise the tickets from $300 to $330??
What difference is that extra $30 gonna make in terms of "safety"??

I can't comment on the data from the US but "According to the city (of Toronto), red-light cameras are effective at reducing serious collisions. Data collected between 2008 and 2014 show injuries at intersections where the devices were installed decreased by 23 per cent, and fatal collisions fell by 40 per cent."

So if that's the case, there's a good argument for them in Toronto.

As for raising the fines, that would be to cover the cost of updating the cameras and installing more of them.

I would also argue, that even though there may be an increase in rear-end collisions, they're far less dangerous than a t-bone. Both vehicles are traveling at relatively the same speed and both going the same direction. Not to mention, if you're approaching an intersection and the vehicle ahead of you brakes when the light turns amber and you can't stop in time, you're either not paying attention or following too closely. Plus, if you rear-end someone, you're at fault.

This is why running a red light is so dangerous. Thankfully there weren't pedestrians standing on some of those corners.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

I can't comment on the data from the US but "According to the city (of Toronto), red-light cameras are effective at reducing serious collisions. Data collected between 2008 and 2014 show injuries at intersections where the devices were installed decreased by 23 per cent, and fatal collisions fell by 40 per cent."

Call me cynical Gameboy, but in all other cities the cameras didnt make any difference, but here in Toronto accidents magically went down.

Hhmm.......allrightie then

 

[shack]

Do you have any studies to back this theory up, or did you just pull it out of your ass??

What study do you have that proves your point? You pulled it out of your ass.

Anyone with a simple understanding of human nature knows that people will try to take advantage of whatever they can. That is just the way people are.

And what profile would that be, honeybun??

The one you keep providing us with your philosophies/outlooks/opinions. I am assuming that you are being sincere with your posts.

 

[rhuarc29]

They do that in one of the Scandinavian countries (Sweden I think). You get a speeding ticket and you pay a percentage according to your income.
So if you're that Ikea guy you're probably looking at a million dollars for going 20 clicks over....LOL

EDIT: its Finland actually https://www.nydailynews.com/news/wo...ces-130-000-speeding-ticket-article-1.1486072

Cool. Interesting experiment.

I'm not at all surprised with the angle the article takes: that he's being punished because he's rich. I believe that's probably the #1 argument against tying fines to income. However, I don't think it's a bad idea myself. The whole point of a fine SHOULD be deterrence. If the recipient doesn't feel the impact of the fine, it isn't a very effective system.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

The one you keep providing us with your philosophies/outlooks/opinions

What on earth do philosophies/outlooks/opinions have to do with running red lights??!!
You make some of the dumbest arguments on this site. And according to the Blue Jay thread I'm not the only one who thinks that.

FYI I've never had a red light ticket myself, and I havent had a speeding ticket in over 7 years

Anyone with a simple understanding of human nature knows that people will try to take advantage of whatever they can. That is just the way people are

People tend to run red light when the light is still amber and they think they can make it.
If a stoplight has been red for a full second or two they are less likely to make a run for it.

So if you extended the opposite green light by 2 or 3 seconds that should drastically reduce accidents.
But it would also increase stoplight wait times

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

So just to expand on what I was saying earlier, City of Toronto claims accidents have been reduced by 40%.
However numerous studies in other cities either show no change, or an increase in accidents.

Its possible Toronto is the exception to the rule, but I'm still a bit skeptical of their claims:

https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/studies/

Case Western Reserve University, Gallagher and Fisher – Criminal Deterrence when there are Offsetting Risks: Traffic Cameras, Vehicular Accidents, and Public Safety: https://www.motorists.org/wp-conten...fsetting-Risks-.-.-.-Case-Western-Reserve.pdf

Red light cameras did nothing to improve safety during the years they were used in Houston, Texas. That was the conclusion of this 2017 study by Case Western Reserve University economist Justin Gallagher and Paul Fisher, a graduate student at the University of Arizona. Their paper covered twelve years’ worth of accident data at photo-enforced intersections in Houston and Dallas

U.S. PIRG Red Light Camera Report – Caution: Red Light Cameras Ahead: http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/caution-red-light-cameras-ahead

According to this study by the national public interest advocacy group, U.S. PRIG, local governments hungry for revenue are signing contracts with red-light camera companies that put profit over traffic safety

Camera Enforcement vs. Best Engineering Practices – The Clash of Diametrically Opposed Forces: https://www.motorists.org/wp-conten...-Best-Engineering-Practices-Dornsife-2002.pdf

A presentation by Chad Dornsife, Executive Director, Best Highway Safety Practices Institute, at the 2002 Institute of Transportation Engineers District 6 meeting (with 2009 addendum)

Los Angeles Red Light Cameras Lead To Increased Accidents: https://www.motorists.org/blog/la-red-light-cameras-increase-accidents/

A local TV station fact-checked the city’s claims that their ticket cameras reduced accidents and found that the opposite was true. At 20 of the 32 intersections studied, accidents increased and several intersections tripled their accident rate

Virginia Accidents Increased After Ticket Camera Installation: https://www.motorists.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2007Virginia.pdf

The Virginia Transportation Research Council released a report expanding upon earlier research into the safety effects of red light cameras in Virginia. It showed an overall increase in crashes after cameras were installed

A Long Term Study of Red-Light Cameras and Accidents: https://www.motorists.org/issues/re...erm-study-of-red-light-cameras-and-accidents/

The conclusion of this Australian study was that RLCs are not an effective countermeasure and that they can increase the number of rear end crashes

AAA Michigan Study Shows Cameras Aren’t Needed: https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/aaa-michigan-study/

AAA Michigan partnered with a number of communities to improve intersection safety. Their inexpensive structural changes resulted in a 47-percent decrease in crashes and a 50-percent decrease in injuries

Evaluation of the Red-Light-Camera-Enforcement Pilot Project: https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/ontario-pilot-project/

This report from Ontario, Canada’s Ministry of Transportation’s concluded that jurisdictions using photo enforcement experienced an overall increase in property damage and fatal and injury rear-end collisions

^^^ this last one is the most interesting, its from our own Ministry of Transportation no less.
It claims fatal accidents actually went up, not down.

Here is the full report: https://www.motorists.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2003-ontario.pdf

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

I can't comment on the data from the US but "According to the city (of Toronto), red-light cameras are effective at reducing serious collisions. Data collected between 2008 and 2014 show injuries at intersections where the devices were installed decreased by 23 per cent, and fatal collisions fell by 40 per cent."

So if that's the case, there's a good argument for them in Toronto.

It's good to know they've been effective in Toronto. Hopefully they keep expanding the program.

 

[GameBoy27]

So just to expand on what I was saying earlier, City of Toronto claims accidents have been reduced by 40%.
However numerous studies in other cities either show no change, or an increase in accidents.

Its possible Toronto is the exception to the rule, but I'm still a bit skeptical of their claims:

https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/studies/

^^^ this last one is the most interesting, its from our own Ministry of Transportation no less.
It claims fatal accidents actually went up, not down.

Here is the full report: https://www.motorists.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2003-ontario.pdf

Thanks for using data from an almost 20 year old study. The data I quoted was from 2008 - 2014.

BTW, this is from page 64/65 of the link you provided.

11.2 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Based on the results presented in this report, the Red Light Camera Enforcement Pilot Project has been shown to be an effective tool in reducing fatal and injury collisions, thereby preventing injuries and saving lives.

For these reasons, it is the opinion of the evaluation study team that the pilot project has been worthwhile and would continue to be of benefit to any participating municipality.

It is recommended that collisions continue to be monitored and examined on a yearly basis to validate that the trend continues as presented in the evaluation study results.

 

[shack]

What on earth do philosophies/outlooks/opinions have to do with running red lights??!!
You make some of the dumbest arguments on this site. And according to the Blue Jay thread I'm not the only one who thinks that.

The problem is that, as usual, most logical arguments go over your head. According to the politics forum, I'm not the only one who thinks so.

BTW, are you now saying that you are a fan of Jays' management?

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Thanks for using data from an almost 20 year old study. The data I quoted was from 2008 - 2014.

BTW, this is from page 64/65 of the link you provided.

11.2 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Based on the results presented in this report, the Red Light Camera Enforcement Pilot Project has been shown to be an effective tool in reducing fatal and injury collisions, thereby preventing injuries and saving lives.

For these reasons, it is the opinion of the evaluation study team that the pilot project has been worthwhile and would continue to be of benefit to any participating municipality.

It is recommended that collisions continue to be monitored and examined on a yearly basis to validate that the trend continues as presented in the evaluation study results.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, here's what the article states: https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/ontario-pilot-project/

This study commissioned by Ontario, Canada’s Ministry of Transportation shows that those rear-end collisions can be fatal.

After evaluating the performance of red light cameras at 68 sites over two years, the report concluded that jurisdictions using photo enforcement experienced an overall increase in property damage accidents of 18.5 percent coupled with a 4.9 percent increase in fatal and injury rear-end collisions. Rear-end collisions involving property damage alone jumped 49.9 percent

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

The problem is that, as usual, most logical arguments go over your head. According to the politics forum, I'm not the only one who thinks so

Only with you Lefties, which is a good thing

BTW, are you now saying that you are a fan of Jays' management?

*facepalm*

Where the hell did I say that, and what on earth does this have to do with this thread??

 

[shack]

Only with you Lefties, which is a good thing


*facepalm*

Where the hell did I say that, and what on earth does this have to do with this thread??

The main thing that I bitch about is Jays management. Now you are saying that I make dumb arguments. The logical conclusion is that you think that I am wrong about Jays management. You don't think that they are bad.

 

[GameBoy27]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, here's what the article states: https://www.motorists.org/issues/red-light-cameras/ontario-pilot-project/

And if you read the full report https://www.motorists.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2003-ontario.pdf and scroll down to page 64 "11.2 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS" it says: "Based on the results presented in this report, the Red Light Camera Enforcement Pilot Project has been shown to be an effective tool in reducing fatal and injury collisions, thereby preventing injuries and saving lives."

In addition, from the article in your post #26, it says: "According to the city, red-light cameras are effective at reducing serious collisions. Data collected between 2008 and 2014 show injuries at intersections where the devices were installed decreased by 23 per cent, and fatal collisions fell by 40 per cent."

So I ask you, based on the above, is that a bad thing?

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

And if you read the full report https://www.motorists.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2003-ontario.pdf and scroll down to page 64 "11.2 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS" it says: "Based on the results presented in this report, the Red Light Camera Enforcement Pilot Project has been shown to be an effective tool in reducing fatal and injury collisions, thereby preventing injuries and saving lives."

In addition, from the article in your post #26, it says: "According to the city, red-light cameras are effective at reducing serious collisions. Data collected between 2008 and 2014 show injuries at intersections where the devices were installed decreased by 23 per cent, and fatal collisions fell by 40 per cent."

So I ask you, based on the above, is that a bad thing?

If it cuts down on fatal accidents, then its a great thing

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

The main thing that I bitch about is Jays management. Now you are saying that I make dumb arguments. The logical conclusion is that you think that I am wrong about Jays management. You don't think that they are bad

Shack......you need a hug, bro!!

You really do :biggrin1:

 

[shack]

Shack......you need a hug, bro!!

You really do :biggrin1:

When are you available?

 

[GameBoy27]

When are you available?

Awesome! ^^^ lol

 

[basketcase]

...
And ask yourself, if its not all about money then why would the City raise the tickets from $300 to $330??
What difference is that extra $30 gonna make in terms of "safety"??

As I said before, I'd rather law breakers get nailed than see my taxes go up. I'd support raising it to $600.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

When are you available?

Just remember that I have a no-review policy

 

[shack]

Just remember that I have a no-review policy

I can honour that if you pour a few shots.