Massage Adagio

Thomas Jefferson

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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The clique that started it are all dead. What clique is being protected by the Constitution now? The american people clique?
Not the people whose tax dollars went to prop up GM, Chrysler and the banks. Capitalists crawling and begging for big government handouts but resisting viciously any suggestion they should pay towards them. Like the medico-insurance pharmers defending their entitlement to profiting from insuring only the healthy and wealthy. And who won those? There's your cllque, and it ain't we the people.

A propos of your scandalized reaction over seizing profits, Encyclopedia of white-collar & corporate crime: A - I, Volume 1
By Lawrence M. Salinger, points out that the first such American seizures were during the revolution, by the folks doing the revolting. So it wasn't to make their world safe for plutocracy that they were putting lives on the line.

The world's a wee tad more complex than you seem to see Glenn.

I like your handle.
 

GlennQuagmire

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Feb 28, 2006
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Not the people whose tax dollars went to prop up GM, Chrysler and the banks. Capatalists crawling and begging for big government handouts but resisting viciously any suggestion they should pay towards them. And who won that one? There's your cllque, and it ain't we the people.

A propos of your scandalized reaction over seizing profits, Encyclopedia of white-collar & corporate crime: A - I, Volume 1
By Lawrence M. Salinger, points out that the first such seizure were during the revolution, by the folks revolting. So it wasn't to make their world safe for plutocracy.
The Constitution should have prevented the the bail-outs. Unfortunately the Constitution is mostly ignored by the US government, and the Supreme Court justices play along.
 

GlennQuagmire

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Not the people whose tax dollars went to prop up GM, Chrysler and the banks. Capitalists crawling and begging for big government handouts but resisting viciously any suggestion they should pay towards them. And who won that one? There's your cllque, and it ain't we the people.

A propos of your scandalized reaction over seizing profits, Encyclopedia of white-collar & corporate crime: A - I, Volume 1
By Lawrence M. Salinger, points out that the first such American seizures were during the revolution, by the folks doing the revolting. So it wasn't to make their world safe for plutocracy that they were putting lives on the line.

The world's a wee tad more complex than you seem to see Glenn.
If anyone has "seized profits" illegally, then prosecute them. Illegal proft seizing doesn't give the government the right to "seize profits".
 

GlennQuagmire

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Feb 28, 2006
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Not the people whose tax dollars went to prop up GM, Chrysler and the banks. Capitalists crawling and begging for big government handouts but resisting viciously any suggestion they should pay towards them. And who won that one? There's your cllque, and it ain't we the people.

A propos of your scandalized reaction over seizing profits, Encyclopedia of white-collar & corporate crime: A - I, Volume 1
By Lawrence M. Salinger, points out that the first such American seizures were during the revolution, by the folks doing the revolting. So it wasn't to make their world safe for plutocracy that they were putting lives on the line.

The world's a wee tad more complex than you seem to see Glenn.

I like your handle.
You are making a clear case for conservatism. Conservatives believe in conserving the Constitution.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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You are making a clear case for conservatism. Conservatives believe in conserving the Constitution.
Well start by quoting the bit that "…should have prevented the bailouts", then move onto making rational sense out of
If anyone has "seized profits" illegally, then prosecute them. Illegal proft seizing doesn't give the government the right to "seize profits".
and we can discuss whether I'm making a case for conservatism. But as a Canadian, with no special religious reverence for that piece of paper in Washington, and well aware of the low horse trading that gave us our constitution a few decades back, I dispute your grade-school definition.

Conservatism's a wee tad more complex than you seem to see too.
 

GlennQuagmire

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Well start by quoting the bit that "…should have prevented the bailouts", then move onto making rational sense out of and we can discuss whether I'm making a case for conservatism. But as a Canadian, with no special religious reverence for that piece of paper in Washington, and well aware of the low horse trading that gave us ours a few decades back, I dispute your grade-school definition.

Conservatism's a wee tad more complex tan you seem to see too.
The Constitution is a limiting document. It limits the federal government to the 18 enumerated powers, and no where can you find in the Constitution the right for the federal government to bail out private investors.

Conservatism isn't really that complex. The Constitution is clearly written and fully anotated by its authors. The compexity arises when the government finagles its way around the Constitution and the Supreme Court stands by idly.

When I speak of conservatism, I am only addressing constitutional conservatism. Religious conservatism is another topic and one I don't wish to discuss.
 

GlennQuagmire

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I dispute your grade-school definition.

Conservatism's a wee tad more complex than you seem to see too.
More condescension. Very unbecoming. Why not just assert your intellectual dominance through logic and examples? For example you could give your definition of constitutional conservatism (that somehow doesn't involve the Constitution?).
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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More condescension. Very unbecoming. Why not just assert your intellectual dominance through logic and examples? For example you could give your definition of constitutional conservatism (that somehow doesn't involve the Constitution?).
I could, although that drags us a long way from that quote you claim you wanted to debate and still haven't. You could show your understanding of the complexity of the issues you sling about—and claim to want to discuss—by actually writing more than two line retorts and responding to every jab with your own. Tell us what's your understanding of TJ's Truism and how it applies today f'rinstance. See I'm a topic conservative, as well as a diet conservative and several other sorts too.

But this new term "constitutional conservatism' you've introduced has no Canadian roots or relevance, so I can only quote others (no idea how representative or authoritative):
constitutional conservatism puts liberty first and teaches the indispensableness of moderation in securing, preserving, and extending its blessings. The American Constitution that it seeks to conserve presupposes natural freedom and equality; draws legitimacy from democratic consent while protecting individual rights from invasion by popular majorities; defines government’s proper responsibilities while providing it with the incentives and tools to perform them effectively; welcomes a diverse array of voluntary associations in part to prevent any one from dominating; assumes the primacy of self-interest but also the capacity to rise above it through the exercise of virtue; reflects and at the same time refines popular will through a complex scheme of representation; and disperses and blends power among three distinct branches of government as well as among federal and state governments to provide checks and balances. The Constitution and the nation that has prospered under it for 220 years demonstrate that conserving and enlarging freedom and democracy in America depend on weaving together rival interests and competing goods.

Unfortunately, contrary to the Constitution’s lesson in moderation, the two biggest blocs in the conservative coalition are, in reaction to electoral debacles in 2006 and 2008, tempted to conclude that what is needed now is greater purity in conservative ranks. Down that path lies disaster.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/5580

All reasonable, I especially liked that last; nothing to do with this new cc-ism of yours, but sure speaks to why Canadian Cons have missed the boat. That "greater purity" stuff of course is not how we messy, difficult humans actually work. Thus the checks, balances and weaving together above.

Let me just note you responded about what specifics in The US Constitution should have prevented the bailouts in terms so general that they made not a ripple in House or Senate that reached this far. Clique or not those bodies are not in the habit of defying the obvious meaning of the Constitution. If it's only you and some buddies who share an opinion, you're free to petition the Supremes to decide what isn't so obvious to all. That's what they're for as in Brown vs. the Board. The Constitution, whether you like it or not, is what the Supreme Court says it is at any given moment. If it is not, then there is no law at all. All else is fungible, opinion and argument.

Anyway you have now made it abundantly clear, you have no intention of discussing your OP, and have only the extremely limiting platform of a US Constitutional Conservative that you're willing to speak from, and only on that topic. If you'd said so from the getgo, I'd not have bothered you. I'm outta here.

What is it about a Toronto Escort Review Board that US con-cons think it's fertile ground for their ideology anyway? Are similar US boards not so liberal?

Enjoy.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Nope, but it means the statement has to be supported on its own merits, by separate arguments: Citing Jefferson does nothing to support the statement, and in fact detracts from it.

It would therefore be better to bring the concept up and argue it without ANY reference to Jefferson.
Why can't you look at the statement objectively without reference to its author who really, never broke any laws at the time (slavery was on borrowed time).

Why can't those words stand on their own?

If we use your logic, then we must renounce the Declaration of Independence too, whose primary author was Thomas Jefferson.

In fact, we must then reject his sweeping statement on civil rights: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

And why not go a step further and reject the Constitution itself which tacitly allowed slavery to continue for 20 years since it was too contentious an issue to resolve at the outset?

We might as well renounce every founding father then for that.
 

fuji

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Why can't you look at the statement objectively without reference to its author who really, never broke any laws at the time (slavery was on borrowed time).
Again, I disagree: Slavery was illegal then as now. It was a crime against humanity then as now. The fact that the perpetrators weren't prosecuted is now a historic fact, but an unfortunate one.

Why can't those words stand on their own?
They need some argument to support them, and I'm responding to the fact that the thread is titled "Thomas Jefferson", presumably somebody thinks he adds something here? He doesn't.

If we use your logic, then we must renounce the Declaration of Independence too, whose primary author was Thomas Jefferson.
Nope that isn't what I said, not even close. I renounced Jefferson. I did not renounce the words: I said they had to be supported on their own, without reference to Jefferson. You may well be able to come up with some independent justification for that viewpoint.

So far I haven't seen any justification for believing that the quote in post #1 is true but I'm open to the possibility that it might be--but certainly the fact that Jefferson thought so is a strike against the notion.
 

larry

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Oct 19, 2002
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...crime against humanity then as now...
You keep saying this as if repitition will make it true. Slavery has been around forever. It still is. Westerners don't like the idea. We outlawed it 200 years ago. Elsewhere in the world, it's just free labour. Let it go.
 

fuji

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You keep saying this as if repitition will make it true. Slavery has been around forever. It still is. Westerners don't like the idea. We outlawed it 200 years ago. Elsewhere in the world, it's just free labour. Let it go.
I'm no moral relativist: Elsewhere in the world it is a crime against humanity too, and should be prosecuted.
 

larry

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I'm no moral relativist: Elsewhere in the world it is a crime against humanity too, and should be prosecuted.
Could you say it once more? i'm almost convinced. your argument is difficult to refute.
 

fuji

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Sure:

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
 

Aardvark154

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"We solemnly assure your Majesty, that we not only most ardently desire the former harmony between her and these colonies may be restored but that a concord may be established between them upon so firm a basis, as to perpetuate its blessings uninterrupted by any future dissentions to succeeding generations in both countries, and to transmit your Majestys name to posterity adorned with that signal and lasting glory that has attended the memory of those illustrious personages, whose virtues and abilities have extricated states from dangerous convulsions, and by securing happiness to others, have erected the most noble and durable monuments to their own fame.

We beg leave further to assure your Majesty that notwithstanding the sufferings of your loyal colonists during the course of the present controversy, our breasts retain too tender a regard for the kingdom from which we derive our origin to request such a reconciliation as might in any manner be inconsistent with her dignity or her welfare. These, related as we are to her, honor and duty, as well as inclination induce us to support and advance; and the apprehensions that now oppress our hearts with unspeakable grief, being once removed, your Majesty will find your faithful subjects on this continent ready and willing at all times, as they ever have been with their lives and fortunes to assert and maintain the rights and interests of your Majesty and of our Mother Country."
 

WoodPeckr

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I imagine nearly everything is "mumbo-jumbo" to you. Notice how no one on this board defends your idiocy?
Who defends you Gags???
You are fast becoming the new JAJA!....:rolleyes:
 
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