This post is for history buffs and those interested in alternative history. There is book called "Why The Allies Won" by a professional historian, who argues that the nazis could have won World War Two or could have conquered Europe and have some sort of peaceful co-existence with America. It would be interesting to speculate what the world would be like if the Nazis had won WWII.
The Nazis Win World War Two?
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"The Man in the High Castle" by Philip K Dick is an interesting read. Basically in this reality the US is divided up between Japanese and German forces.
there's some video games that deal with this
one is the Liberty series - in which you play a New York wiseguy fighting Nazi stormtroopers in NYC
another is a computer game from long ago - basically, the Nazis take over the US and run it like a soulless corporation
one is the Liberty series - in which you play a New York wiseguy fighting Nazi stormtroopers in NYC
another is a computer game from long ago - basically, the Nazis take over the US and run it like a soulless corporation
General George S. Patton allegedly wanted to join the NAZIs and fight the commies. General Patton was actually overlord of Bavaria post-WW II and he appointed a lot of NAZIs to key government posts. There is a theory that General Patton's death was planned and not accidental.
IG, baby - I mentioned that coupla days ago on the Small Problems Christmas 2011 thread! Quelle coincidence!
How could Germany have won? You really cannot believe that Germany could ever have invaded and occupied USA.
Nor Russia -- there was never a decisive turning point at which Germany could have beaten Russia. Even if the Germans had won at Kursk, in aug 1943, they would surely have been too depleted to do anything else, whereas the Russians were very resilient by that time.
It was touch and go in summer 1940, whether Germany would gain air superiority, and then invade Britain. But even with air sup, britain had clear naval superiority, and the invasion would very likely not have succeeded.
The other decisive major turning point was the D-Day invasion of normandy in june 1944. If that had failed, it is quite likely that a repeat would have been impossible, and that the allies would have sought a peace in which Germany would retain permanent control of continental europe - or at least control of germany. The germans had twenty divisions available to defend northern France, and if these could have been brought to bear against the five divisions seeking to land, that would have been that.
In the pacific, Japan might have won at Midway. But that would have been just a delay; you cannot see any way the US would not have beaten Japan into unconditional surrender, in the end.
The second world war has been described as the worst thing that ever happened. That was certainly true as far as Russia and Germany were concerned. Obviously not true for USA. But for Russia, you wonder how losing could have cost Russia more than winning cost them.
Of course, you can imagine all kinds of scenarios. But neither Germany nor Japan, nor both together, ever had the resources needed to actually defeat and conquer the Allies.
Nor Russia -- there was never a decisive turning point at which Germany could have beaten Russia. Even if the Germans had won at Kursk, in aug 1943, they would surely have been too depleted to do anything else, whereas the Russians were very resilient by that time.
It was touch and go in summer 1940, whether Germany would gain air superiority, and then invade Britain. But even with air sup, britain had clear naval superiority, and the invasion would very likely not have succeeded.
The other decisive major turning point was the D-Day invasion of normandy in june 1944. If that had failed, it is quite likely that a repeat would have been impossible, and that the allies would have sought a peace in which Germany would retain permanent control of continental europe - or at least control of germany. The germans had twenty divisions available to defend northern France, and if these could have been brought to bear against the five divisions seeking to land, that would have been that.
In the pacific, Japan might have won at Midway. But that would have been just a delay; you cannot see any way the US would not have beaten Japan into unconditional surrender, in the end.
The second world war has been described as the worst thing that ever happened. That was certainly true as far as Russia and Germany were concerned. Obviously not true for USA. But for Russia, you wonder how losing could have cost Russia more than winning cost them.
Of course, you can imagine all kinds of scenarios. But neither Germany nor Japan, nor both together, ever had the resources needed to actually defeat and conquer the Allies.
Germany's mistake in my opinion was taking two fronts at same time.
Hitler wasn't crazy just not militarily intelligent.
You win by getting the US bogged down with the japs and getti g Russia to fight the US.
Germany's officers corp were far superior then the allies.
Hitler never really intended to fight the British. He actually admired and respected them.
Churchill wanted war more then any other leader.
And Patton knew the real enemy wasn't Germany it was the Russians.
Patton was smart enough to the Germans ( nazi party people) help run the country after.
Who else would know how basic things worked.
FYI. This was a fatal flaw US made in Iraq. Getting rid of all the ruling party guys to help.
What I always found interesting is what if Germany said in 1941- 1942 they wanted a negotiated peace?
Would the US sat at table? Therefore not risking all the lives that would be lost?
Britain never would have negotiated.
Germany was never a direct threat to US.
Hitler wasn't crazy just not militarily intelligent.
You win by getting the US bogged down with the japs and getti g Russia to fight the US.
Germany's officers corp were far superior then the allies.
Hitler never really intended to fight the British. He actually admired and respected them.
Churchill wanted war more then any other leader.
And Patton knew the real enemy wasn't Germany it was the Russians.
Patton was smart enough to the Germans ( nazi party people) help run the country after.
Who else would know how basic things worked.
FYI. This was a fatal flaw US made in Iraq. Getting rid of all the ruling party guys to help.
What I always found interesting is what if Germany said in 1941- 1942 they wanted a negotiated peace?
Would the US sat at table? Therefore not risking all the lives that would be lost?
Britain never would have negotiated.
Germany was never a direct threat to US.
Japan did attack the USSR shortly after they took Manchuria and got their asses handed to them. Stalin's Siberian reinforcements were guarding Vladivostok, Hitler figured he could take Moscow before they were shipped back West.
I think it's called Fatherland. If I remember correctly, its more about a SS officer (born after WW2) who finds out the holocaust and brings it to the world's attention. The movie is based on the book.
"What If The Nazis Had Won?" is a pretty common theme in science fiction and alternative history fiction (which is usually classified as a sub-genre of science fiction). It's probably the most common theme in alternative history fiction, actually. Harry Turtledove, John Barnes, and arguably SM Stirling (his "Draka" series) all have some of this theme in their books, just to name a few off the top of my head.
No, it's not the same thing as an academic historical book, but these authors often have a much better grasp of the history involved than most History Masters candidates I know.
The Nazis killed, what, 10 million people during WWII? The Communists killed ~100 million in the 20th century.
The reality is that any politically ambitious person in 1930s Germany joined the Nazi party. Separating out those who were "true" Nazis and those who were "just" ambitious and capable people (ie- the people you need to run your society) was one of the big tricks in post-WWII Germany. If you threw everyone who was ever a member of the Nazi party into prison and tried to run Germany with whoever was left, you'd have ended up with East Germany. Where the Nazis by another name ended up taking over, as the Stasi.
No, it's not the same thing as an academic historical book, but these authors often have a much better grasp of the history involved than most History Masters candidates I know.
...more along the lines that Patton recognized that the Communists were as dangerous as the Nazis, and that with the Nazis effectively destroyed the West should take advantage of the manpower at their disposal and use them against the Communists.
The Nazis killed, what, 10 million people during WWII? The Communists killed ~100 million in the 20th century.
The reality is that any politically ambitious person in 1930s Germany joined the Nazi party. Separating out those who were "true" Nazis and those who were "just" ambitious and capable people (ie- the people you need to run your society) was one of the big tricks in post-WWII Germany. If you threw everyone who was ever a member of the Nazi party into prison and tried to run Germany with whoever was left, you'd have ended up with East Germany. Where the Nazis by another name ended up taking over, as the Stasi.
For some reason, there is a tendency to somehow minimize the Nazis, had they won, and taken over America. That they would have, for the most part, ruled America with mostly the same government system as before.
I don't think it would have been so pleasant. As they did with other European countries, I'd imagine the Nazis would've gone through each neighbourhood in North America, rounding up Jews and other undesirables. Encouraging residents to spy on each other, and rat each other out.
With America, there is the additional issue of dealing with African-Americans and other minorities that are 100% non-Aryan; I can't imagine what the Nazis would've done with them.
I don't think it would have been so pleasant. As they did with other European countries, I'd imagine the Nazis would've gone through each neighbourhood in North America, rounding up Jews and other undesirables. Encouraging residents to spy on each other, and rat each other out.
With America, there is the additional issue of dealing with African-Americans and other minorities that are 100% non-Aryan; I can't imagine what the Nazis would've done with them.
Even if Hitler had succeeded in "winning" WW2 (which was impossible given who he was taking on), he would have NEVER been able to hang on to the conquored territory.
I'm hard pressed to think of a single country in the world right now that is currently "occupied" or controlled by foreign invaders.
Logistics just don't allow for the holding and controlling of a country that doesn't want to be held or controlled. All you need to do is resist. One only need to look as far as the mighty United States of America. Brought to its knees in Afghanistan by a bunch of cavemen. Ditto Iraq and Vietnam.
I'm hard pressed to think of a single country in the world right now that is currently "occupied" or controlled by foreign invaders.
Logistics just don't allow for the holding and controlling of a country that doesn't want to be held or controlled. All you need to do is resist. One only need to look as far as the mighty United States of America. Brought to its knees in Afghanistan by a bunch of cavemen. Ditto Iraq and Vietnam.
in fairness to USA, all they want to do is to control world resources, and they are quite effective a it.
The Nazis could conceivably have won WW2 if they had avoided conflict with the USA. Britain was militarily impotent after Dunkirk and would never have been able to re enter Europe without massive US participation. The Russians would probably have beaten the Germans in the end, but this is far from a sure thing. Hitler could have offered Britain "junior partner" status in Europe as long as it demilitarized and became a satellite of Germany.
Hitler had no axe to grind with the USA. It was simply a competing world power. Hitler's interest was in Europe. He could have established guarded and somewhat hostile diplomatic relations with the US that never amounted to open war. He could never have conquered the USA. Way too powerful. Way too distant. Way too large.
The interesting issue is what would happen to the ideology of the 3rd Reich after Hitler's death. Nazism was an ideology that built on mainstream intellectual ideas that were current in the 1890's. By the 40's, fewer and fewer people outside Germany believed in racist doctrines and these ran increasingly counter to the academic thinking in the West. Remember that the US was about to integrate pro sports and the Civil Rights movement was only 15 years away.
The interesting question is whether Nazi Europe would have collapsed ideologically and economically of its own accord, like Soviet Russia by the 1970's. Franco's Spain - another Fascist state - simply transformed itself into a standard Western democracy after the dictator's death and his ideology died along with him.
Hitler had no axe to grind with the USA. It was simply a competing world power. Hitler's interest was in Europe. He could have established guarded and somewhat hostile diplomatic relations with the US that never amounted to open war. He could never have conquered the USA. Way too powerful. Way too distant. Way too large.
The interesting issue is what would happen to the ideology of the 3rd Reich after Hitler's death. Nazism was an ideology that built on mainstream intellectual ideas that were current in the 1890's. By the 40's, fewer and fewer people outside Germany believed in racist doctrines and these ran increasingly counter to the academic thinking in the West. Remember that the US was about to integrate pro sports and the Civil Rights movement was only 15 years away.
The interesting question is whether Nazi Europe would have collapsed ideologically and economically of its own accord, like Soviet Russia by the 1970's. Franco's Spain - another Fascist state - simply transformed itself into a standard Western democracy after the dictator's death and his ideology died along with him.
Let's not get away from original thread but:
I can't think of one country the US has colonized as many other countries have?
Phillipinnes? South Korea? Japan? Iraq ? Grenada? Panama?
All the islands in SE Asia? Puerto Rico? Do we need to continue?
Bought to its " knees" really? Give it up. So dramatic you American haters are but yet for years you enjoyed the umbrella the US provided for years regardless of a few holes in the umbrella.
I can't think of one country the US has colonized as many other countries have?
Phillipinnes? South Korea? Japan? Iraq ? Grenada? Panama?
All the islands in SE Asia? Puerto Rico? Do we need to continue?
Bought to its " knees" really? Give it up. So dramatic you American haters are but yet for years you enjoyed the umbrella the US provided for years regardless of a few holes in the umbrella.
