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The Monty Hall problem

mmouse

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This is totally irrelevant to this board but it's an interesting diversion nonetheless.

Imagine you are a contestant on a tv show. You are shown 3 doors and told there is car behind one of them and sheep behind the others.
You choose a door.
The host then opens one of the other doors to reveal a sheep.
He then gives you the chance to change your initial choice to the other remaining door.

Should you switch? The obvious answer would seem that it will make no difference - it's now a 50/50 chance that the car is behind either door.
However, if you actually do a real simulation of this game, you will find you have a 2/3 better chance of choosing the car if you DO switch doors.

The question is - why.
 

lasslicker

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You have to be improving your odds of winning by switching.

You have already chosen one door, and now can select a second.

Ergo, you odds of winning have improved from 1 in 3, to 2 in 3.
 

mmouse

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That doesn't add up - at the end of game you still end up only choosing one door out of three.
 
G

Gord's Bro

Yes, but you effectively get to look BEHIND a second door, thus increasing your odds!!
 

mmouse

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Increased to 50-50 for sure, but why to 2/3 - 1/3?
 

lasslicker

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It adds up to me.

With one selection of three, those are your odds; 1 in 3.

By showing you one of the incorrect choices and sticking with your initial selection, your odds of winning have not changed. They are still 1 in 3.

Switching to a second door increases your odds of winning 100%, ie 2 in 3.
 

stinkynuts

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This is an extremely devious question, which is very counter intuitive. It would appear that the odds would be 50/50, but in fact, it is advantageous to switch.

This problem was successful answered by Marilyn Savant (who has the world's highest IQ). She answered the question in her column, only to be criticized and ridiculed by math professors and others.

To illustrate the point, think of the problem like this. Instead of three doors, let's say there were 100 million doors. You choose one. The host then opens all 99,999,998 remaining doors, leaving one other door unopened, along with the one you chose. Obviously, it's to your advantage to switch, since you couldn't possibly have guessed the correct door the first time (unless you were extremely lucky). The door that the host left unopened is highly likely to be the correct door.

By the way, in the original problem, it's a goat not a sheep. :)
 

oldjones

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stinkynuts said:
This is an extremely devious question, which is very counter intuitive. It would appear that the odds would be 50/50, but in fact, it is advantageous to switch.

This problem was successful answered by Marilyn Savant (who has the world's highest IQ). She answered the question in her column, only to be criticized and ridiculed by math professors and others.

To illustrate the point, think of the problem like this. Instead of three doors, let's say there were 100 million doors. You choose one. The host then opens all 99,999,998 remaining doors, leaving one other door unopened, along with the one you chose. Obviously, it's to your advantage to switch, since you couldn't possibly have guessed the correct door the first time (unless you were extremely lucky). The door that the host left unopened is highly likely to be the correct door.

By the way, in the original problem, it's a goat not a sheep. :)
First of all let's be very clear (or I have it all wrong): when you're standing there, with sweat running, there are two closed doors, one of which you've picked and the one door (or 99,999,998) the host opened, revealing no prize. Why is it obvious "it's to your advantage to switch, since you couldn't possibly have guessed the correct door the first time (unless you were extremely lucky)." It sure isn't obvious to me, because the amount of luck required never changed.

Why "extremely lucky" instead of just lucky? Surely the 'extremely lucky' person is the host who opened all those doors w/ the audience going wild and wilder and never found the car. Or could it be—No, never—fixed? How can one prove the odds changed anyway?

This is a thought problem and here's another way to think of it: any given door has a prize or has none. Either/or. 50/50. From the house's point of view the odds change by increasing the number of prizeless doors. Increasing them, then taking them out of play by opening however many is showmanship but doesn't change the odds you face when deciding which are the same odds you face calling a coin toss: you can only call it one of two ways and have no evidence (including permutations, combinations and odds) to help you. That door either has a prize, or it has a sheep. Pick one.

The suspiciously named Ms. Savant may think that proving some number of doors had no prize demonstrates that your original choice couldn't be right, but the only 'proof' offered here is 'you couldn't be so lucky'. Given that I'm either gonna be right or wrong, I'd say the 99,998 successive wrong doors just confirm that I picked right the first time.

----------------S P O I L E R W A R N I N G-----------------------------

PS: Now that I've spoiled all the fun by Googling the answer, may I point out how vital a full, concise statement of the problem is. The element that wasn't clear here was that the host will not show you the prize when opening 'his' door(s).

------------------I D I D W A R N Y O U------------------

Though the odds are you picked a goat door, the only time switching doors fails is if you were lucky enough to pick the car door right off. But in all other instances—and when the game began the odds were stacked against picking the car—the pool of goat doors is being reduced by the host, until just the two doors are left: your original (which had only a 1 in however-many-doors chance of being right) and the last door, which for sure has a one in two chance now.

Nice puzzle, thanks for posting it mmouse. And the Google hits are very entertaining
 

dreamer

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stinkynuts does have it right with the analogy

When you first pick you have a 1/3 chance of winning. I think most would agree with that.

But this means that there is a 2/3 chance the automobile is behind the other doors.

When he shows you what is behind one of those doors the odds do not change, there is still a 2/3 chance that the automobile is behind one of those doors. Of course he knows which door to show you, the one that has the goat. That means there is now a 2/3 chance the automobile is behind the other door you did not pick.

Therefore you should always switch.
 

dreamer

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stinkynuts said:
She answered the question in her column, only to be criticized and ridiculed by math professors and others.
This is a standard logic question and I doubt any math professor would ridicule the answer. In fact they would give the same answer.
 

dreamer

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Does the answer to this question change depending on whether the person opening the doors knows which one has the prize?

In my answer to the question I assumed the person knew, because Monty Hall would always know, thus the drama of the show.
 

stinkynuts

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oldjones said:
First of all let's be very clear (or I have it all wrong): when you're standing there, with sweat running, there are two closed doors, one of which you've picked and the one door (or 99,999,998) the host opened, revealing no prize. Why is it obvious "it's to your advantage to switch, since you couldn't possibly have guessed the correct door the first time (unless you were extremely lucky)." It sure isn't obvious to me, because the amount of luck required never changed.

Well, when you choose one door out of 100 million, there is only 1/100 million chance you got the right door. There is a 999,999,999 chance that the correct door is the one you didn't choose.

After he opens 999,999,998 oof the 999,999,999 remaining doors, the odds are 999,999,999/100,000,000 that the door left unopened has the prize.
 

stinkynuts

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dreamer said:
This is a standard logic question and I doubt any math professor would ridicule the answer. In fact they would give the same answer.
http://www.grand-illusions.com/monty.htm


When Marilyn vos Savant quoted this puzzle in the US a few years ago, she received over 10,000 letters mostly telling her she was wrong.

One was from Robert Sachs, a professor of mathematics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. who said "As a professional mathematician, I'm very concerned with the general public's lack of mathematical skills. Please help by confessing your error and, in the future, being more careful."
 

Ranger68

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dreamer said:
stinkynuts does have it right with the analogy

When you first pick you have a 1/3 chance of winning. I think most would agree with that.

But this means that there is a 2/3 chance the automobile is behind the other doors.

When he shows you what is behind one of those doors the odds do not change, there is still a 2/3 chance that the automobile is behind one of those doors. Of course he knows which door to show you, the one that has the goat. That means there is now a 2/3 chance the automobile is behind the other door you did not pick.

Therefore you should always switch.
Yes, it's quite clear when you think about it.
2/3 of the time, you pick wrong. But, then the "host" shows you the _other_ wrong door, so you can't lose when you switch.
1/3 of the time, you pick right, the host opens either of the other two doors, and you switch to the other WRONG one.
Odds of winning when you switch? 2/3.
Why? It's called playing the percentages - you know the host is going to eliminate one of the doors for you AFTER you pick. If you guess "right", and pick the _other_ wrong door, you have eliminated all the possibilities, and win. The trick is to pick one of the two wrong doors off the top.
2/3.
 

dreamer

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stinkynuts said:
One was from Robert Sachs, a professor of mathematics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. who said "As a professional mathematician, I'm very concerned with the general public's lack of mathematical skills. Please help by confessing your error and, in the future, being more careful." [/I]
Yes, I agree that they disputed the answer, but I find differing answers about whether or not is was clear in her column that the host always knew which door to open.

I read one article where they said she did not, and then I read another that quoted what her column stated and it was clear that the host knew.

The answer to the question depends on that assumption

And not to totally confuse the situation :) but not only do you have to assume that the host knows where the car is, you also have to assume that the host will always reveal the goat.
 

Ranger68

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If the host doesn't know which door is which, it's still easy. You switch - assuming you can pick the door he opens.
The odds are still 2/3.
This is why:
1/3 of the time, you pick the prize door - then it doesn't matter which door you switch to - you lose.
2/3 of the time, you pick the wrong door - then, half the time, the host then opens the prize door, which you select - the other half, he picks the wrong door, which you don't select, and then you end up choosing the prize door automatically.
It's the same as before.

If you can't pick the door he opens, the odds are the same as if you hadn't switched - 1/3.
This is why:
1/3 of the time, you pick the prize door - then it doesn't matter which door you switch to - you lose.
2/3 of the time, you pick the wrong door - then, half the time, the host then opens the prize door, which you can't select, and you lose - the other half, he picks the wrong door, and you then open the prize door.

Why the odds are different in the first problem discussed (which seems to run counter to intuition), is that the host HAS KNOWLEDGE which he then applies to the game. This spins the odds to non-random.
If the host has random knowledge, it doesn't matter, UNLESS you can CHOOSE to pick the door he opens - in which case, you essentially get two shots - 2/3 - the door he opens, or the door he doesn't. (That is, if the host guesses "wrong", you can guess "right".)

It's not that complicated.
 

papasmerf

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Is monty Hall alive?
 
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