The influence of Jewish lobby groups

solitaria

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basketcase said:
I'm surprised that Cinelli didn't post this.

Fake by the way.
I can't imagine how anyone could be so naive as to think that the Jewish lobby groups aren't extremely powerful in the USA.

I understand how you and TQM are extremely pro-Jewish. If I remember correctly I think you revealed your bias to me in another thread a long time ago. Your biases cloud your judgment. That much is sure.

Everything about US foreign policy is pro-Jewish. I could post countless articles about it. As a presidential nominee you basically have to swear your allegiance to Israel or you will be vetted.

Do you disagree that Israel is not the biggest recipient of US foreign aid and weaponry/ Can you explain that in the context of your position/ To think otherwise is just illogical and irrational to the thinking man. The position just doesn't add up to reality.

Sharon in all probability said the comment. I have heard interviews with him and he always said the same type of shit. He was a big-time hawk with an even bigger mouth. Of course it was a hugely dumb ass thing to say - the truth that is - and there was a massive cover up of it. Hey if you want to be naive bordering on stupid and think otherwise be my guest.
 

gryfin

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bbking said:
.... I would think that Pakistan would disagree on that as would Saudi Arabia. Anyways the anti-Israel group has a tendency to put blinders on when confronted with facts, so here's an attached file that actually outlines US foreign as policy after 9/11.


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf



bbk
And everything in it is consistent with Mearshiemer and Walt's analysis in the "Israel Lobby". It continues to be one of the world's largest welfare cases.
 

basketcase

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solitaria said:
I can't imagine how anyone could be so naive as to think that the Jewish lobby groups aren't extremely powerful in the USA.
...
So your 'evidence' is shot down yet you continue on. Yes, Israel receives money from the US but as has been said in this thread (if you actually want to read the posts) and many others is that American support for Israel is because it serves American interests to do so.

By the way, since the Americans so successful visit to Iraq, Iraq is by far and away the leader in foreign assistance money.

From 2004:
Iraq 18.44b
Israel 2.62b
Egypt 1.87b
Afghanistan 1.77b
Jordan 0.56b
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf (pg 17 of the pdf)

Even ignoring Iraq, Egypt and Jordan received pretty much the same amount of money as Israel did.
 

onthebottom

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basketcase said:
So your 'evidence' is shot down yet you continue on. Yes, Israel receives money from the US but as has been said in this thread (if you actually want to read the posts) and many others is that American support for Israel is because it serves American interests to do so.

By the way, since the Americans so successful visit to Iraq, Iraq is by far and away the leader in foreign assistance money.

From 2004:
Iraq 18.44b
Israel 2.62b
Egypt 1.87b
Afghanistan 1.77b
Jordan 0.56b
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf (pg 17 of the pdf)

Even ignoring Iraq, Egypt and Jordan received pretty much the same amount of money as Israel did.
So, if we just tell both sides to fuck off we could save 6b for something useful.

OTB
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
So your 'evidence' is shot down yet you continue on. Yes, Israel receives money from the US but as has been said in this thread (if you actually want to read the posts) and many others is that American support for Israel is because it serves American interests to do so.
The notion that Israel serves American interests was demolished by the exhaustive Mearsheimer and Walt study that demonstrates this conclusion with extensive documentary evidence.
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
Because I don't run their government?
We all know that.

We are waiting for your explanation of why the Israeli government is funding the military training of children and financing the creation of military trained religious fantatics?
 
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gryfin

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basketcase said:
You have posted a number of articles on why the old criticism of Palestinian textbooks was off base - the main reason given for those flaws is that they were not made by Palestinians (even though they have been the books they were using well into the 90's - I have no idea how wide their use might be now). You have posted a number of ambiguous smears of the people who analyzed the books yet totally ignored the reports on the CURRENT books.
You might want to rethink this paragraph. The claims made by PMW were the central source of smears made against the Palestinian textbooks. It's been documented that these claims were fabricated.

According to Aviva Eldar in Haaretz:

One study, which was conducted at the initiative of the donor states in the European Union, referred to a report on the textbooks that was submitted in November 2001 by the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP - www.edume.org). The report, which was extensively covered in the Israeli and world media, was intended to persuade the donor states to cease funding the new textbooks. However, the European study shows that, to put it mildly, the Israeli report fails to reflect the true state of affairs, as it presents Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks as the new textbooks of the PA.

"Quotations attributed by earlier CMIP reports to the Palestinian textbooks," says a Middle East Working Group of the EU, "are not found in the new PA schoolbooks funded by some EU member states; some were traced to the old Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks that they are replacing, ... and others [were] not traced at all." Moreover, the EU study finds that many of the quotations "have been found to be often badly translated or quoted out of context, thus suggesting an anti-Jewish bias or incitement that the books do not contain ... New textbooks, though not perfect, are free of inciteful content ... constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians."

Now we have documented evidence of PMW's fabrications - deliberately attributing quotes which do not exist and evidence of mistranslations intended to create a false picture.

What's interesting is this excerpt, where it turns out that it was the Israeli government that kept the textbooks that it found offensive in Palestinian schools.

"Prof. Nathan Brown, from George Washington University, a former adviser to the U.S. Agency for International Development, noted an odd phenomenon in his study of the Palestinian curriculum (November 2001). He found that even though the PA's National Education books for grades 1-6 were "devoid of any anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli material," Israel "allowed the offensive Jordanian books to be used in the East Jerusalem schools but barred the innocuous PA-authored books, probably fearful that use of the PA books would be an implicit recognition of sovereignty." The office of the government coordinator in the territories says in response that the inflammatory chapters were deleted from the Jordanian books and that the PA restored the original texts."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=476179

When are you going to stop returning to these nut sites like PMW or any of the other sites run by Itamar Marcus?

As to your claims about the current textbooks, what's the source of this criticism? Please give us the name of the site and the person responsible. We'll see who is regurgitating material.

Just to give you a helping hand, here's the link you provided the recent review of textbooks.
http://www.pmw.org.il/BookReport_Eng.pdf

Tell us if this the same source you always turn to or not?

Tell us if this is the same organization that's been caught fabricating claims about Palestinians textbooks for years?

Tell us if other organizations and academics have spotted them doing it and published their findings?

Here's a quote from Dr. Ruth Firer:

Quoted in Le Monde diplomatique, Dr. Firer attributes a political motivation to the right-wing researchers at CMIP, who, she says, have no educational or methodological background and only want to prove that it's impossible to achieve peace with the Palestinians.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011001/moughrabi
 

basketcase

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He still thinks that posting the same irrelevent articles from 2001 will somehow disprove reports from 2007.
 

solitaria

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basketcase said:
So your 'evidence' is shot down yet you continue on.
You've not shot down anything. Post a link to a news source stating Sharon or Perez denied the comments were ever said. Sharon said it.

basketcase said:
Yes, Israel receives money from the US but as has been said in this thread (if you actually want to read the posts) and many others is that American support for Israel is because it serves American interests to do so.
It serves American (as in the people's)interests to be siding with Israel? Surely you jest. Most countries are anti-American and the US economy is going down the shitter because of their foreign policy and how they are getting bent over backwards and shafted just as Sharon stated. What American support for Israel serves is politicians' interests in getting elected because of how powerful the Israeli Lobby groups are in America.
 

WoodPeckr

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bbking said:
BTW Obama raised more money from small donors than any single pro-Israel group, unless you think the internet is a Jewish conspiracy ... oh it can't be with all the wesals we see on it.


bbk
Perhaps all that money Obama is getting from small donors is a reflection of the massive disgust by the people for the way those other powerfull lobbies control US policy and government. They are hoping Obama will find a way to break their corrupt control of govt, where their corporate interests come before the will and best interests of the people. It remains to be seen if Obama can break their grip but the small donors are sending the message, they want changes here.
 

solitaria

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bbking said:
Gee I really get a kick out of some of you half wits ... politicians rely on Jewish money to get elected ... you really believe that? Dream on .... Corporate America is the single largest source of election funds ... BTW the Oil Lobby or the Pharma Lobby dwarf any funds raised by any pro Israel group by a factor of ten.

BTW Obama raised more money from small donors than any single pro-Israel group, unless you think the internet is a Jewish conspiracy ... oh it can't be with all the wesals we see on it.


bbk
You can barely spell so don't be calling your intellectual superior a half-wit. I never said that politicians rely on Jewish money to get elected. Here's a thought; try reading what I write before you start up on a canned tangent again.

The Jewish lobby groups have significant control over the American media and therefore the way the American people think and act. That is way more important than donations. If a politician is even slightly critical of Israel he will get crucified in the media whereas they basically have carte blanche to say outrageously bias and prejudicial things against the Arab people.

You seem to have a very superficial understanding of reality. May I ask when you stopped believing in Santa Claus or do you still?
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
He still thinks that posting the same irrelevent articles from 2001 will somehow disprove reports from 2007.
Reports from 2007? You mean more than one? Go back and count again. Your basic math skills are as absent as your research skills.

This is funny because you've only provided one link to a document written by the same group run by the same guy for the past ten years. Itamar Marcus. It's the only source you have. And you keep relying on garbage.

I've read that document and it's nothing but an amateurish missive. It's written by a group that practices fabrication and it's intended for the gullible, such as yourself. Since Itamar Marcus and his front organizations have been exposed so many times, it's no wonder no one takes him seriously.

You may not like the timelines I've covered, but that's the length of time this group has been peddling it's hate.

I'll gladly rely upon the sources I've offered. Everyone on this board can see the difference in the quality and nature of the sources I've produced. They are from a variety of academic backgrounds and represent a variety of independent bodies. All come to the same conclusion. Itamar Marcus was perpetrating a hate filled hoax. He lied. He fabricated. He's a settler bum who is affiliated with extreme right wing Israeli's.
 
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basketcase

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gryfin said:
Reports from 2007? You mean more than one? Go back and count again. Your basic math skills are as absent as your research skills.
So that means you have no answer for this?

It's written by a group that practices fabrication and it's intended for the gullible, such as yourself. Since Itamar Marcus and his front organizations have been exposed so many times, it's no wonder no one takes him seriously.
You have yet to show any evidence of this but I am sure that you've repeated it enough times that at least you believe it.

Same old......
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
So that means you have no answer for this?

This answer is right here!

"This is funny because you've only provided one link to a document written by the same group run by the same guy for the past ten years. Itamar Marcus. It's the only source you have. And you keep relying on garbage.

I've read that document and it's nothing but an amateurish missive. It's written by a group that practices fabrication and it's intended for the gullible, such as yourself. Since Itamar Marcus and his front organizations have been exposed so many times, it's no wonder no one takes him seriously.

You may not like the timelines I've covered, but that's the length of time this group has been peddling it's hate."
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
You have yet to show any evidence of this but I am sure that you've repeated it enough times that at least you believe it.

Same old......
No evidence? Let me gift wrap it for you:

According to the EU Middle East Working Group:

"Quotations attributed by earlier CMIP reports to the Palestinian textbooks," says a Middle East Working Group of the EU, "are not found in the new PA schoolbooks funded by some EU member states; some were traced to the old Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks that they are replacing, ... and others [were] not traced at all." Moreover, the EU study finds that many of the quotations "have been found to be often badly translated or quoted out of context, thus suggesting an anti-Jewish bias or incitement that the books do not contain ... New textbooks, though not perfect, are free of inciteful content ... constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=476179
 

basketcase

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gryfin said:
No evidence? Let me gift wrap it for you:

According to the EU Middle East Working Group:

"Quotations attributed by earlier CMIP reports to the Palestinian textbooks," says a Middle East Working Group of the EU, "are not found in the new PA schoolbooks funded by some EU member states; some were traced to the old Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks that they are replacing, ... and others [were] not traced at all." Moreover, the EU study finds that many of the quotations "have been found to be often badly translated or quoted out of context, thus suggesting an anti-Jewish bias or incitement that the books do not contain ... New textbooks, though not perfect, are free of inciteful content ... constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=476179
2005? Enough said.
 

gryfin

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basketcase said:
2005? Enough said.
Enough said? Nice try. You asked for evidence and it was provided. Now deal with it.

Just to summarize:
Itmar Marcus and the various website he runs:

2001 Caught fabricating
2002 Caught fabricating
2003 Caught fabricating
2004 Caught fabricating
2005 Caught fabricating

Is there any reason to believe this racist has changed his stripes?

Enough said?

You might want to explain why he is the only source for this junk and why you find it so appealing.
 

basketcase

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I apologize after having read the entire article.
One study, which was conducted at the initiative of the donor states in the European Union, referred to a report on the textbooks that was submitted in November 2001 by the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
So your scorecard comes down to...
gryfin said:
2001 Caught fabricating
Actually quoted the Eqyptian/Jordanian books still in use at the time (*according to a report which is only mentioned in this one article*).
2002 Caught fabricating
No evidence provided
2003 Caught fabricating
No evidence provided
2004 Caught fabricating
No evidence provided
2005 Caught fabricating
No evidence provided (really just an article claiming the 2001 report was bad)



So pretty much, you are right back to where you started. The only evidence is that the 2001 report because it was out of date by the time it was published. It's funny but pretty much all the 'evidence' you have found is based on Akiva's article which is based on this EU working committee report (which seems not to exist online) and ignoring other reports such as that of the IPCRI (who even you can't claim is a 'racist group') who found enough in 2003 to criticize.
While disclaiming incitement, Baskin and al Qaq state in the full report that “these textbooks fail to apply the principles and concepts (of religious tolerance) to include Jews and the State of Israel.… and although the curriculum provides the opportunity for students to recognize and respect beliefs and practices of “others”, the concept of the “other”, in most cases, is limited to Christians.”[11] The findings are clear. They detail:

1. the failings in the teaching of civil society and cultural literacy.
2. that Jews are “inadequately and inappropriately represented”,[12] in the historical events of the region.
3. the problems in teaching religious identity, where the textbooks “seem to ignore their existence (of Jewish religious places) or their importance to Jews and the State of Israel.”[13]
4. that, with regard to modern history, Jews “are negatively represented.”[14]
http://www.theprismgroup.org/articles/palestinian_children_what_are_they_being_taught.html

full report http://www.ipcri.org/files/4&9report.pdf


If the 2007 report (or any of the other ones) was so 'fabricated' then why cant you actually find any reports (beyond that of a very leftist journalist) showing that?


So to summarize, not only have you failed to provide evidence, you lie about CMIP being the only source.
 
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