The Great Debate

[silentkisser]

The only entity truly fighting Russia is the Toronto Film Festival execs who have now banned the showing of one of the movies about Russian soldiers in the war with Ukraine for fear of violence.
Take that Russia! https://tiff.net/tiff-statement-regarding-the-canadian-documentary-russians-at-war

Ironically, part of the funding for the movie came from the Canadian government, ie our tax dollars.

btw I'm wondering when the feds here will introduce a new Russia/Ukraine War tax? Hmmmmm....

I do not agree with that decision at all, nor the backlash. For me, I feel bad for the average Russian soldier. In the early days, they might have believed the propaganda and wanted to fight for their country....only to be led by idiots with terrible tactics and weapon systems that were not properly maintained....nor the logistics for a sustained assault. We hear that many did not want to be there, and they are sending prisoners as basically cannon fodder to the front lines. All in all, there is a human tragedy happening on that side as well. Now, I won't say that they aren't doing horrific things to Ukraine and its people. They are. Some willingly. And yes, the government (along with the French government) helped fund the doc.

And...I'm wondering why you think there would be a tax?

 

[silentkisser]

That's quite a bit of wishful, revisionist history.

Obama was President in 2014 when Russia took the Crimea and began the border battles in the East.

But what did Obama do? He started a program giving Ukraine military aid...and imposed sanctions on Russia. Trump did absolutely nothing to resolve the issue with his dear friend Vladdy. And, he tried to extort a bogus investigation into Hunter Biden by Ukraine in exchange for aid. Remember? I mean, he got impeached for those shenanigans....

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on from Trump. I'd love to hear him explain how he would end the war. Would he be able to restore all the territory back to Ukraine, including Crimea? Why would Russia agree to that? Or, the more likely scenario....he'd basically let Ukraine fend for itself and sue for peace or eventually get crushed.

I would like to remind everyone that Trump is not a peace loving person. Sure, he pulled US troops out of Afghanistan (and fucked that dog pretty badly. NOTE - this is not to give Biden a pass for the chaotic withdrawal, but that certainly made it more challenging), but he escalated combat in many other ways, like the significant increase in drone strikes he allowed....with looser rules and regulations on what they could target.

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835521173238489468

Weird. Today news broke of an affidavit from an ABC Whistleblower about ABC News
@ABC
feeding the debate questions to
@KamalaHarris
ahead of time.
@DavidMuir

@LinseyDavis
Then… hours later, a Mercenary who supports Biden and Harris tried to assassinate President Trump on his golf course with an AK 47. How WEIRD… How come President Trump faced an assassination attempt days after debating Joe Biden, and then days after debating Kamala Harris? How WEIRD!

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835440406714040594

 

[Bucktee]

The media and Kamala Harris say everything is fine, so you cannot believe the people that actually live there and are facing the issues every day.

Remember, the BLM riots were actually peaceful protests costing a mere $1 billion in damages. Truth is whatever they tell you it is.

In order to act, officials need more credible evidence like they had for Weapons of Mass Destruction years ago.

When they say that something is "a threat to our democracy" what they mean, is that it's "a threat to our oligarchy."

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835387479870038054

 

[Valcazar]

fraudsters and felons are well known for having firm principles and following them no matter what!

To be fair, Trump's racism, misogyny, and authoritarianism have been pretty consistent.

 

[richaceg]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835382525151105304

 

[WyattEarp]

But what did Obama do? He started a program giving Ukraine military aid...and imposed sanctions on Russia. Trump did absolutely nothing to resolve the issue with his dear friend Vladdy. And, he tried to extort a bogus investigation into Hunter Biden by Ukraine in exchange for aid. Remember? I mean, he got impeached for those shenanigans....

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on from Trump. I'd love to hear him explain how he would end the war. Would he be able to restore all the territory back to Ukraine, including Crimea? Why would Russia agree to that? Or, the more likely scenario....he'd basically let Ukraine fend for itself and sue for peace or eventually get crushed.

I would like to remind everyone that Trump is not a peace loving person. Sure, he pulled US troops out of Afghanistan (and fucked that dog pretty badly. NOTE - this is not to give Biden a pass for the chaotic withdrawal, but that certainly made it more challenging), but he escalated combat in many other ways, like the significant increase in drone strikes he allowed....with looser rules and regulations on what they could target.

You seem to get a bit irritated by someone noting a simple fact (Crimea) that conflicts with your narrative. I don't blame Obama, Trump or Biden for Russian aggression one way or another. Russia was going to do what it wanted to do. I agree the invasion was timed to start after the Olympics. That was a short-term timing tactic. Strategically, oil prices surged in 2021 and Putin might have thought the world could not do without Russian oil. It certainly seems that Russia can find buyers.

I have my opinions about the Ukraine independent of what party is in the White House. Really I don't see a lot of objectivity on social media. I see more of the Biden is to blame or Trump is to blame narratives. I just don't see the war ending with a return to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders no matter who is President.

I don't know what to tell you. (That's my polite way of saying you can say whatever you want but I'm not sure there's a whole lot there.)

PS- You sound a bit like Beaver. You should get him started. He can bend time and events to fit any narrative you want.

 

[Valcazar]

Oh fuck off with that nimrod, wannabe intellectual act.

He HAS no "policy" except to further his own sense of grandiosity.

I don't think that's entirely true.

Healthcare? His "great" plan? He's had NINE years to set out ANY policy and the ONLY thing he accomplished was to get Roe v. Wade overturned... ONLY to further his own interests by feeding his base. He couldn't even LEAD anything on COVID except division. Takes credit for a vaccine, yet fans the flames of the conspiricy theorists.

Repeal "Obamacare" and then let whatever the private market can get away with happen is his plan.
He "wins" over Obama.

Other than that, it is whatever anyone can convince him should be the new thing.
The fact the GOP was never able to come up with an idea they all agreed on isn't his fault as far as Trump is concerned.

Immigration? He managed to get a few hundred (at most) miles of fence built. Nothing else. No vision or ideas on how to deal with existing illegal immigrants or future ones. NOTHING except word salad at Rallies (his own jerk-off sessions) designed to dog whistle the inner racist iin his followers who longed for the days of (white) Leave it to Beaver. Except none of these mutts remember that the Italians, Irish, Catholics, Polish and other white immigrants were the target of anti-immigration then.

He's moved on from the wall plan.
Now it is is mass deportation.
A giant, bloody, police action on several million people that will require massive government expenditure, violence, and new and bigger prison/detention camps.

He hasn't laid out exactly how that would work, but you can't say it isn't a policy.

Taxes? Gave the RICHEST people a huge tax cut and NOTHING for the average Joe or family. NOTHING.

That's a policy.

CHYNA? Tarriffs? He doesn't understand that ALL that money is passed on and paid for by the American CONSUMER.

It's still a policy.
He's also been saying stuff about how Taiwan needs to pay for US defense and the US couldn't really protect it anyway.
Which at least implies a policy.

And NONE of that is meaningful "policy" to lead a government and country as complex as the United States. It is the largest, most complex and sophisticated government, economy and country in the world. Led by a con-artist TV celebrity pussy grabbing bald faced liar.

So, no, there is no "policy" to talk meaningfully about with Trump. Because his followers see and hear what they want to see and hear in his words.

I dunno, these all seem like policies for some definition of the term.

 

[Valcazar]

The Haitians are legal immigrants. He can't kick them out.

If he targets the Haitians, they will launch a slam dunk "denial of civil rights" mega-lawsuit that will make Jean Carroll and his other assinine legal capers look mild in comparison.

He can't touch the Haitians. He's fucked.

It's not like we're back in Nazi Germany and it's Hitler targeting the Jews. There's a little thing called the US Constitution.

Stephen Miller and company have made it clear for quite some time that legal immigrants should also be removed.

Sure, the violent police force won't get used on the Haitians first thing (even if Trump doesn't care about the legalities much) that's just because most are in Ohio on 18-month renewable visas.
All the administration needs to do is not renew them.

 

[silentkisser]

You seem to get a bit irritated by someone noting a simple fact (Crimea) that conflicts with your narrative. I don't blame Obama, Trump or Biden for Russian aggression one way or another. Russia was going to do what it wanted to do. I agree the invasion was timed to start after the Olympics. That was a short-term timing tactic. Strategically, oil prices surged in 2021 and Putin might have thought the world could not do without Russian oil. It certainly seems that Russia can find buyers.

I have my opinions about the Ukraine independent of what party is in the White House. Really I don't see a lot of objectivity on social media. I see more of the Biden is to blame or Trump is to blame narratives. I just don't see the war ending with a return to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders no matter who is President.

I don't know what to tell you. (That's my polite way of saying you can say whatever you want but I'm not sure there's a whole lot there.)

PS- You sound a bit like Beaver. You should get him started. He can bend time and events to fit any narrative you want.

I don't think I'm irritated, I'm just stating facts. Think of it at the time, back in 2014. Europe did not want to intervene, so the US was limited in its response to the annexation of Crimea. I only raise it as a point of contention that will certainly be on the docket during any eventual peace negotiations. Ukraine says Crimea is theres, and will not accept losing it. The same for their border territories that Russia has been meddling in for about a decade now.

 

[WyattEarp]

I don't think that's entirely true.



Repeal "Obamacare" and then let whatever the private market can get away with happen is his plan.
He "wins" over Obama.

Other than that, it is whatever anyone can convince him should be the new thing.
The fact the GOP was never able to come up with an idea they all agreed on isn't his fault as far as Trump is concerned.



He's moved on from the wall plan.
Now it is is mass deportation.
A giant, bloody, police action on several million people that will require massive government expenditure, violence, and new and bigger prison/detention camps.

He hasn't laid out exactly how that would work, but you can't say it isn't a policy.



That's a policy.



It's still a policy.
He's also been saying stuff about how Taiwan needs to pay for US defense and the US couldn't really protect it anyway.
Which at least implies a policy.



I dunno, these all seem like policies for some definition of the term.

It would seem that the new rules of political engagement is that if something is unpopular you simply change your position. It's not like Kamala isn't trying to find a path on some issues in real time. I'm almost certain she might say she won't ban fracking but the Federal agencies under her leadership will not be supportive at all.

Wasn't Kamala for Medicare for All? That doesn't seem to fly with people with private insurance. Trump (and Kamala) have merely run into the U.S. healthcare quagmire. People like their private insurance. The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers.

 

[Valcazar]

I would like to remind everyone that Trump is not a peace loving person. Sure, he pulled US troops out of Afghanistan (and fucked that dog pretty badly. NOTE - this is not to give Biden a pass for the chaotic withdrawal, but that certainly made it more challenging), but he escalated combat in many other ways, like the significant increase in drone strikes he allowed....with looser rules and regulations on what they could target.

"Trump is anti-war" is one of those delusions people cling to like a security blanket.

 

[Skoob]

I do not agree with that decision at all, nor the backlash. For me, I feel bad for the average Russian soldier. In the early days, they might have believed the propaganda and wanted to fight for their country....only to be led by idiots with terrible tactics and weapon systems that were not properly maintained....nor the logistics for a sustained assault. We hear that many did not want to be there, and they are sending prisoners as basically cannon fodder to the front lines. All in all, there is a human tragedy happening on that side as well. Now, I won't say that they aren't doing horrific things to Ukraine and its people. They are. Some willingly. And yes, the government (along with the French government) helped fund the doc.

And...I'm wondering why you think there would be a tax?

The tax comment was a joke because it appears that our governments are always looking for ways to rob us of more of our money under the guise of "it's for your own good".

re banning the film...it's more about the ones who apparently worry the most about something or someone infringing on their freedom, are the first to censor and cancel someone's else's perspective.

 

[squeezer]

nobody pulling strings on trump...Biden was running on "auto-pilot" his entire term...LOL...and now his proxy will do the same...dodging key questions is "winning"...LOL...but you still think she's great...was US better during Trumps term compared to Biden? economy and immigration? lefties are experts on sweeping everything under the rug...

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

 

[Valcazar]

It would seem that the new rules of political engagement is that if something is unpopular you simply change your position.

Yes and no.
On one level, that's always been the rules of engagement - as a representative, you respond to the people.
On the other, it is always a mix of your own judgment as well.

There is the absolute weather vane you sometimes see, but usually it is tacking in the political wind to get to somewhat the initial destination, even if the details change as you make compromises in light of a huge country with many opinions and multiple people with agendas and power that need to find consensus of a sort.

It's not like Kamala isn't trying to find a path on some issues in real time. I'm almost certain she might say she won't ban fracking but the Federal agencies under her leadership will not be supportive at all.

Which is pretty much what I would expect and has been the consensus Democratic position for quite some time.
A whole sale ban on most fossil fuels is impractical and unpopular.
So move the incentive structure slowly in the direction of more sustainable energy.

Pretty straightforward.

Wasn't Kamala for Medicare for All? That doesn't seem to fly with people with private insurance.

She was at some point and has backed off that position.
She is still in favor of better health insurance/coverage and more people having access.

As I used to point out endlessly to people, Medicare for All is not the only way to do that.
She hasn't changed position and now come out against greater health care for people or the elimination of government from the system or repealing the ACA.

Trump (and Kamala) have merely run into the U.S. healthcare quagmire. People like their private insurance. The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers.

Yes.
But Trump has also proposed no plan, and instead promised one for 9 years.
He tried to get the ACA repealed without a replacement plan in place.
What he has discussed more than in general waving terms is a return to a private system that everyone loathed.

Getting universal coverage in the countries it has happened in was NEVER easy because "The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers." has been true for every country. Different countries solved that problem in different ways.

 

[Skoob]

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

Nothing was Biden's fault because he didn't know where he was or what year it is. The Dems did a great job of hiding him away to fool the public.
I'm surprised you aren't horrified by what they did before he "moved aside".

 

[squeezer]

Nothing was Biden's fault because he didn't know where he was or what year it is. The Dems did a great job of hiding him away to fool the public.
I'm surprised you aren't horrified by what they did before he "moved aside".

I will give you an article from Forbes that will bend over backwards to show the Right in a good light but even they can't sing the praise of Trump over Biden's record. Take your partisan-blinded goggles off and have a read but remember, Forbes skews towards your side.

Remember, INFLATION isn't any leader's fault coming out of the pandemic and wars outside of their control. Gas, groceries etc...would have all gone up had Trump the Stump won a second term.

How The Economy Really Fared Under Biden/Harris And Trump—From Jobs To Inflation (Final Update)

The final economic data is in ahead of the election—here's what the numbers say about the Trump and Biden/Harris economies.

www.forbes.com

 

[WyattEarp]

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

Systemic inflation was a monetary phenomenon. The Fed printed money to accommodate Federal spending. The money supply charts don't lie. Inflation tightly correlates with the increase in the money. This was a worldwide phenomenon but not necessarily unavoidable.

The Biden Administration had a choice to slow down spending long after Covid and chose not to take this step. They also chose not to raise taxes which would have helped offset the inflationary effect of the additional spending.

I always try to ask the next question. Did any industrialized nations avoid high inflation the last three plus years? Japan is one. They however have been fighting deflation for several years. Interestingly, Switzerland avoided high inflation. You might say they're so small. However, I would argue if inflation was a systemic, global phenomenon a small country that must import quite a bit of its consumption would surely be affected.

What did the Swiss do differently than other countries? It's very simple. They kept their money supply under control and got their spending back to pre-Covid levels in 2022.

PS- I typically ignore China's data for being unreliable.