The Bible: Truth or Fiction?

[Yoga Face]

In 325, Constantine 1 summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified). He ordered scholars to write the official bible and it was here that cut and paste produced a politically correct version of todays New Testament
Leaving out many books such as the book of Thomas ( the famous "Doubting Thomas " )


Archeology has proven much of the bible to be accurate

 

[OnlySex]

You unfairly characterize Christians. They tend to be more charitable than than the secular and are involved in hard work in the worst parts of the world.

There are exceptions, the lion's share line up behind the few.

Why I am not surprised that you have your facts backwards. Do you make this stuff up or did someone feed it to you?

If you read before you preach you would note I said 'my observation' .. it is an opinion - you can comment but you can't tell me what my opinion is.

Do you think the death penalty is a christian/secular issue?

Stick to the facts - The word of God in the bible is expressly - 'Thou shalt not kill'. There are not any corollaries, exceptions, etc. but many hard nosed bible thumpers would pull the lever if they had the chance. I find it typical of the hypocrisy surrounding the religion.

Are you suggesting that all non-Christians are opposed to the death penalty?

If you were schooled in logic, you wouldn't suggest this assumption. Yes, I'm sure the Muslims beheading their captors are against the death penalty.

Are you suggesting that the ten commandments prohibit the death penalty?

I'm not a Christian scholar but if you are preaching the faith, it is seems hard to reconcile ignoring a fundamental principle direct from the word of God to indulge in killing of any unarmed individual independent of what personal justification/revenge is behind it. This is excluding my own beliefs unless you think I could usurp the word of the Christian God.

Why do you think christians are more focussed on revenge than anyone else?

Sadly, yet another unfounded conclusion - I never said they have sole rights to revenge - I did say I found a dominate characteristic of the Bible thumpers I have met.

It is funny what you say about racism because there was this guy I heard of, his name was Martin Luther King Jr. and he ran this organization called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. ..... Have you heard of him?

I believe he was a black Christian that was persecuted by white Christians including having their congregation murdered, tortured. Why some of those bible thumping Christians actually took time off of the church activities to set fire to another church with the parishioners still inside. A lot of the white support that King got were Jewish (I'm not Jewish - to stop another conclusion)

You also clearly have not opened the bible,

OMG, yet another erroneous conclusion !

there are many many more direct quotes from God (in theory), and most Christians think that the direct quotes from Jesus are kind of important.

As with his disciples but they did not replace God or diminish his word. (I went to Sunday school) My memory is a little foggy - please tell me what exactly the other parts of the scripture other than the ten commandments that were written directly by God. Particularly those amending the Thou Shalt Not Kill' except if the bastard deserves it.

Nice to see you make up some facts to support preaching hate though. It is a very old tradition.

OMG - so many conclusions - I guess written words are less satisfying than those imagined ones. I never said 'hate', I might be preaching intolerance against the religious bible thumping bastards that try to regulate my life based on a set of rules that they themselves adjust to their own purpose .. but I didn't say 'hate'. Your 'facts' are badly formed conclusions interpreted as convenient facts to bolster your own rebuttal. That is a very old tradition.

 

[rld]

In 325, Constantine 1 summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified). He ordered scholars to write the official bible and it was here that cut and paste produced a politically correct version of todays New Testament
Leaving out many books such as the book of Thomas ( the famous "Doubting Thomas " )


Archeology has proven much of the bible to be accurate

That is very close. But not quite. The Counsel of Nicaea dealt with a whole bunch of issues, but I don't think the Canon was one of them. I think that was decided a little later at Hippo and Carthage IIRC.

The Emperor did not order any council or synod to "write" the bible. There were many writings around at the time claiming to set out the truth of Jesus and his message. The purpose of the counsel were to decide which ones were legit and which ones were bogus. It was there job to ferret out what books would form the "canon". So they did not write anything, nor did they even edit anything, they just decided what was going to be "official" and what was going to be left out.

A number of criteria were applied to the writings out there (and one can debate the logic of the criteria but I think they are 2/3 sound) and the canon was settled on around 400.

Many books were indeed left out and some have been rediscovered lately.

The Gospel of Thomas is particularly interesting, claiming to be a series of sayings of Jesus, but it has a particularly Gnostic flavour which makes it tough to decide where it might fit.

 

[rld]

There are exceptions, the lion's share line up behind the few.

If you read before you preach you would note I said 'my observation' .. it is an opinion - you can comment but you can't tell me what my opinion is.

Every study on the subject shows that religious people are more generous in charitable giving and volunteer work than the non-religious. You are factually wrong.

The "your opinion" excuse is simply weak thinking. I could have an opinion that the Steelers beat the Packers in the last Super Bowl. That opinion would be as wrong as your opinion on the charitable nature of religious people.

Stick to the facts - The word of God in the bible is expressly - 'Thou shalt not kill'. There are not any corollaries, exceptions, etc. but many hard nosed bible thumpers would pull the lever if they had the chance. I find it typical of the hypocrisy surrounding the religion. If you were schooled in logic, you wouldn't suggest this assumption. Yes, I'm sure the Muslims beheading their captors are against the death penalty. I'm not a Christian scholar but if you are preaching the faith, it is seems hard to reconcile ignoring a fundamental principle direct from the word of God to indulge in killing of any unarmed individual independent of what personal justification/revenge is behind it. This is excluding my own beliefs unless you think I could usurp the word of the Christian God.

Let's stick to the facts. The proper use of the word in context is murder. If you read the OT there are a number of places where God specifically directs capital punishment. If you were intellectually honest enough to put things in context you admit that. And this is not simply a Christian issue (by the by the RC church agrees with you on capital punishment), even atheists and agnostics debate the place of capital punishment.

I believe he was a black Christian that was persecuted by white Christians including having their congregation murdered, tortured. Why some of those bible thumping Christians actually took time off of the church activities to set fire to another church with the parishioners still inside. A lot of the white support that King got were Jewish (I'm not Jewish - to stop another conclusion)

So your little pejorative hate blast was only directed at white christians who disagreed with you. Why didn't you make that clear. South America and Africa are full of non-racist Christians. I guess you just decided to pick the worst examples of people who call themselves Christian and apply their characteristics to the whole group. Well done. Inaccurate generalization at its best.

OMG, yet another erroneous conclusion ! As with his disciples but they did not replace God or diminish his word. (I went to Sunday school) My memory is a little foggy - please tell me what exactly the other parts of the scripture other than the ten commandments that were written directly by God. Particularly those amending the Thou Shalt Not Kill' except if the bastard deserves it.

Now you are changing your position. You earlier said direct quote from God. The OT is full of them. It is kind of hard to have a covenant without talking to god. Here are some just to help you out and help you understand capital punishment, biblically speaking is not black and white:


Genesis 9:6:

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

There are more than 10 crimes in the OT where the death penalty is the punishment to be given. Perhaps you should read more than the ten commandments?

OMG - so many conclusions - I guess written words are less satisfying than those imagined ones. I never said 'hate', I might be preaching intolerance against the religious bible thumping bastards that try to regulate my life based on a set of rules that they themselves adjust to their own purpose .. but I didn't say 'hate'. Your 'facts' are badly formed conclusions interpreted as convenient facts to bolster your own rebuttal. That is a very old tradition.

Basically calling a group of people (unfairly) racist, blood thirsty, uncharitable assholes is a form of hate. I don't think that is too strong a word for what you have said about Christians. Or is it just white christians...?

But at least try and get your facts right.

 

[Mencken]

The Ten Commandments were good start, a little flowery, a little repetitive and maybe a little political, but not a bad start. as with most good laws they grow and change with contemporary thinking but the essential message remains the same.

I'm not sure about the burning bush thing, but something says in the back of my mind says there some study of it's truth. I do know there is good historical grounds to believe the 10 plagues of Egypt did happen/could happen along with the parting of the Red/Reed Sea.

The 10 commandments...which set are you talking about? And what about all the others in the same passages? A lot of crap in there...not exactly "ethical" from any decent human point of view. Perhaps god is less ethical though.

As for plagues and the parting of the Red Sea...historical grounds...bull. Only in the imagination of those who want it to be so...nothing in history that even has a whiff of any of this.

 

[wigglee]

Rev Phelps does not approve of this thread~!

 

[papasmerf]

Those who believe will continue to believe.

Those who question it will continue to question

Those who deny it will continue to deny it.

Best definition of the Bible I have ever heard is that is is a good handbook for life.

 

[blackrock13]

The 10 commandments...which set are you talking about? And what about all the others in the same passages? A lot of crap in there...not exactly "ethical" from any decent human point of view. Perhaps god is less ethical though.

As for plagues and the parting of the Red Sea...historical grounds...bull. Only in the imagination of those who want it to be so...nothing in history that even has a whiff of any of this.

I wasn't aware there were more than one set, George Carlin aside.

As far as the Red/Reed Sea AH, do some reading and learn something. That part of the waterway has very quirky tides and the tides can literally run so far out that the sea bottom is almost bare, and sturdy enough to hold a person up but not chariots on narrow wheels and horse on tiny hooves. Local fisherman knew this and it would take too much to think they also told someone like Moses.

Hopefully you can believe others like Carl Drews, from the US National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) I could name a couple others, but you'll wave them off as one of them Jews.
Hopefully, you will be as smart as you think you are. The world around you will be a better place as a result.

 

[rld]

I wasn't aware there were more than one set, George Carlin aside.

As far as the Red/Reed Sea AH, do some reading and learn something. That part of the waterway has very quirky tides and the tides can literally run so far out that the sea bottom is almost bare, and sturdy enough to hold a person up but not chariots on narrow wheels and horse on tiny hooves. Local fisherman knew this and it would take too much to think they also told someone like Moses.

Hopefully you can believe others like Carl Drews, from the US National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) I could name a couple others, but you'll wave them off as one of them Jews.
Hopefully, you will be as smart as you think you are. The world around you will be a better place as a result.

The commandments appear twice, once in Exodus and then again in Deuteronomy (sp?) but they are virtually identical.

 

[basketcase]

I have yet to see any contemoprary historical evidence of Jesus existing. There are a number of people who mentioned him but most are written 60-100 AD.

Was there was a historical Jesus? Quite possibly there was a well known Jesus that stories were based on.
Was there a Biblical Jesus? I guess that depends on your level of faith.

 

[blackrock13]

The commandments appear twice, once in Exodus and then again in Deuteronomy (sp?) but they are virtually identical.

Two separate set of tablets? I understand the first set was chucked down the mountainside by some old guy.

 

[rld]

Two separate set of tablets? I understand the first set was chucked down the mountainside by some old guy.

Chinese knock-offs, big business...

 

[blackrock13]

I have yet to see any contemoprary historical evidence of Jesus existing. There are a number of people who mentioned him but most are written 60-100 AD.

Was there was a historical Jesus? Quite possibly there was a well known Jesus that stories were based on.
Was there a Biblical Jesus? I guess that depends on your level of faith.

Jesus was not that uncommon a name, but this Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter, was mentioned in a number of contemporary or near contemporary sources. CM went snaky a while back in his thread on religion and was inundated by numerous sources which he of course denied as valid.

 

[blackrock13]

chinese knock-offs, big business...

lmao!!!!

 

[rld]

I have yet to see any contemoprary historical evidence of Jesus existing. There are a number of people who mentioned him but most are written 60-100 AD.

Was there was a historical Jesus? Quite possibly there was a well known Jesus that stories were based on.
Was there a Biblical Jesus? I guess that depends on your level of faith.

My understanding of the earliest biography we have written of Alexander the Great is that it was written more than 400 years after his death.

I don't have a good text in front of me, but IIRC the earliest gospels might have been written say 60-90 CE, and Jesus would have died around 30 CE or so.

IIRC josephus refers to his brother James as well.

 

[Cobster]

Are you suggesting that 50% of the content of the Bible deals with miraculous events?

Really?

I'm suggesting a good chunk of it, "99.9%" of it is superstition passed on from generation to generation...............TO (ready for this?), SUPERSTITION.

My opinion of course, others may vary, unless you can prove God exists somehow in a tangible way, much like science can explain and prove gravity or something else along those lines.

 

[Yoga Face]

That is very close. But not quite. The Counsel of Nicaea dealt with a whole bunch of issues, but I don't think the Canon was one of them. I think that was decided a little later at Hippo and Carthage IIRC.

The Emperor did not order any council or synod to "write" the bible. There were many writings around at the time claiming to set out the truth of Jesus and his message. The purpose of the counsel were to decide which ones were legit and which ones were bogus. It was there job to ferret out what books would form the "canon". So they did not write anything, nor did they even edit anything, they just decided what was going to be "official" and what was going to be left out.

A number of criteria were applied to the writings out there (and one can debate the logic of the criteria but I think they are 2/3 sound) and the canon was settled on around 400.

Many books were indeed left out and some have been rediscovered lately.

The Gospel of Thomas is particularly interesting, claiming to be a series of sayings of Jesus, but it has a particularly Gnostic flavour which makes it tough to decide where it might fit.

The Emperor Constantine, later made a saint, wanted one official book to unite the Christians and politics was a key element as to which books made it into the final cut and yes they were edited

For example, Pilate was shown to care about Jesus and even offered the crowd the choice to set him free but they chose Barabbas, the thief, instead

This is almost certainly all bullshit to make Pilate, a Roman, look like he wanted to free the now accepted Messiah by Constantine

it was never the Roman custom to free prisoners to appease the crowd and Pilate saw Jesus as just another political prisoner and almost certainly never talked to him


Thomas' writings do not seem to accept the resurrection and he is suspected to have been Jesus' brother

His writings were found in a safe in NYC and were all but destroyed by the humidity where a dealer had stashed them

 

[Bobzilla]

My understanding of the earliest biography we have written of Alexander the Great is that it was written more than 400 years after his death.

I don't have a good text in front of me, but IIRC the earliest gospels might have been written say 60-90 CE, and Jesus would have died around 30 CE or so.

IIRC josephus refers to his brother James as well.

Josephus wrote around the time that the Jerusalem uprising was suppressed by the Romans & a faction of the Jews was besieged at Masada, ie. approx. 70-79 AD. Although he mentions Jesus, some scholars feel that his mention of Jesus is a later insertion that does not contain the same kind of phrasing as the rest of his text, that is to say, it may be a later addition to it by a different writer. I don't think there is any other verifiable writing closer to alleged time of Jesus. See "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. It's a compelling book arguing against the existence of an historical Jesus.

 

[skypilot]

jesus is just a myth updated from the Egyptian myth of Osirus. Resurrection is just a hoax concocted by and for people who find dying terrifying. Hey, it all goes black and thats it. Forever.

And I used to be a Roman Catholic Priest, so I should know.

 

[simon482]

god and jesus are real. the story in the bible is about 90% made up.