Thank you Brian Burke

[bigdik]

Even though you've taken a contrary position, you at least phrased it as a good give and take. You state your case but at least give the other person acknowledgment for their reasoning.

A respectable "agree to disagree".

I do try to be objective, but there is also the other picks (players) involved, and there seems to be a potentially huge upside on Dougie Hamilton.
For the Bruins, they've moved on from Seguin and time will tell. Thus far it looks pretty good for both sides but I believe long term they'll be the losers in the trade with Dallas.
I honestly believe Seguin is a Sakic/Yzerman calibre player, given health, and Dallas has a great building block. That could turn out to be mistaken as well.

Now, want to discuss the Rask/Raycroft trade?

 

[shack]

I do try to be objective, but there is also the other picks (players) involved, and there seems to be a potentially huge upside on Dougie Hamilton.
For the Bruins, they've moved on from Seguin and time will tell. Thus far it looks pretty good for both sides but I believe long term they'll be the losers in the trade with Dallas.
I honestly believe Seguin is a Sakic/Yzerman calibre player, given health, and Dallas has a great building block. That could turn out to be mistaken as well.

There are still a lot of maybes which is why it is hard to determine a "winner", even if that term is appropriate. Leafs improved, Kessel is in his prime, has been consistent and has not been injured. Bruins won a cup, how much the trade factored in is hard to say. How will the players they got for Seguin work out long term. Will Seguin stay healthy. Will he mature or revert to being a party animal? So many factors, which are fun to throw out into the discussion but still mean one can't properly assess the trade until at least one player's career is finished.

That both teams benefitted is the only thing one can say with certainty at this point.

Now, want to discuss the Rask/Raycroft trade?

Absolutely, as long as you take the position that the Leafs won. I'll let you go first.

 

[bigdik]

There are still a lot of maybes which is why it is hard to determine a "winner", even if that term is appropriate. Leafs improved, Kessel is in his prime, has been consistent and has not been injured. Bruins won a cup, how much the trade factored in is hard to say. How will the players they got for Seguin work out long term. Will Seguin stay healthy. Will he mature or revert to being a party animal? So many factors, which are fun to throw out into the discussion but still mean one can't properly assess the trade until at least one player's career is finished.

That both teams benefitted is the only thing one can say with certainty at this point.

Absolutely, as long as you take the position that the Leafs won. I'll let you go first.

On the Kessel trade I agree 100%
On Rask I had trouble typing while ROTFLMAO.
Maybe you'd like to take the Canucks side on the Neely trade while you're at it?:Eek:

 

[stucatz269]

just to touch on what SAXON said about winning the cup. Boston would have won the cup without Tyler Seguin which was evident in only playing 7 playoff games. He only had 3 points in Bostons run to the cup. in the past 4 seasons he has been in the NHL only has 80 goals 95 assists 175 points. Phil Kessel on the other hand has 119 goals 140 assists and 259 points on a team that missed the playoffs in the same amount of seasons. So based on stats Toronto has won the trade regardless of seguin having a cup.

This trade reminds me of the Wayne Gretzky, marty mcsorley, Mike Krushelnyski go to the Kings for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, 3 - 1st- round draft picks

The way it sounds if you compare the trade is that Edmonton received 3 1st round picks and won the cup Without Gretzky the following season. So that means that LA lost the trade because of the amount they gave up for Wayne and have no cup to show for it.

My point to compare the 2 trades it that you can put any single player on a powerhouse team and they will end up with a cup and have done little to nothing to deserve it. But yet because they were chosen to be on that team they get all the credit for WINNING that cup. What you got to look at is what is the long term effect a player has on a team. Kessel like Gretzky has put Toronto back on the map in the NHL after there 8 or so years of mediocre. The leafs would be no were in that 7 game series last year against Boston and this year in the standings. You can give the credit to the goalies but without the offence and proven goal scorer, goalies can only bring a team so far.

The question is the bruins have won and will win without Seguin, But can Seguin win without the Bruins. SO far he has not proven he can't.

 

[bigdik]

just to touch on what SAXON said about winning the cup. Boston would have won the cup without Tyler Seguin which was evident in only playing 7 playoff games. He only had 3 points in Bostons run to the cup. in the past 4 seasons he has been in the NHL only has 80 goals 95 assists 175 points. Phil Kessel on the other hand has 119 goals 140 assists and 259 points on a team that missed the playoffs in the same amount of seasons. So based on stats Toronto has won the trade regardless of seguin having a cup.

This trade reminds me of the Wayne Gretzky, marty mcsorley, Mike Krushelnyski go to the Kings for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, 3 - 1st- round draft picks

The way it sounds if you compare the trade is that Edmonton received 3 1st round picks and won the cup Without Gretzky the following season. So that means that LA lost the trade because of the amount they gave up for Wayne and have no cup to show for it.

My point to compare the 2 trades it that you can put any single player on a powerhouse team and they will end up with a cup and have done little to nothing to deserve it. But yet because they were chosen to be on that team they get all the credit for WINNING that cup. What you got to look at is what is the long term effect a player has on a team. Kessel like Gretzky has put Toronto back on the map in the NHL after there 8 or so years of mediocre. The leafs would be no were in that 7 game series last year against Boston and this year in the standings. You can give the credit to the goalies but without the offence and proven goal scorer, goalies can only bring a team so far.

The question is the bruins have won and will win without Seguin, But can Seguin win without the Bruins. SO far he has not proven he can't.

Holy Shit! I'm speechless! Did you just compare Kessel to Gretzky in this incoherent mess? I'm sorry stucatz269 but you are exactly why so many leaf fans are hard to take seriously. Avid, but unaware.

 

[peepingtom]

True Kessel is a top notch player and is having a great run lately but the trade helped bring the Bruins a cup

I have to disagree that the trade helped bring the Bruins a cup. The Bruins were good enough that year that they could have won the cup without Seguin. If they didn't make that trade, Phil may have a ring on his hand now as a member of the Bruins.

 

[lovelatinas]

Let's just that Kessel is the Leafs franchise player right now. It was a good trade for Burke. Thank You Burke and Thank You Kessel as they say in Boston.

 

[lovelatinas]

Holy Shit! I'm speechless! Did you just compare Kessel to Gretzky in this incoherent mess? I'm sorry stucatz269 but you are exactly why so many leaf fans are hard to take seriously. Avid, but unaware.

Kessel is not Gretzky but he is sure turning into the NHL superstar we hoped he would be. He just needs to work on putting more of a consistent effort every night more like Sidney Crosby.

 

[lovelatinas]

Which means that every year 29 out of 30 teams lose all their trades. A trade is only good if a cup is won.

The reason 2 NHL teams make a trade is to improve both teams. Cliff Fletcher stealing Doug Gilmore from Calgary rarely happens in today's NHL.

Boston fans think they got a good deal and Leafs fans think they got a good deal in the trade.

 

[saxon]

Seguin +62. Kessel -34. Interesting stat.

 

[Bargnani_]

Seguin +62. Kessel -34. Interesting stat.

I assume your talking career and not this year ... Seguin has had the luxuary of playing with Tim Thomas and Rask and one of the best defensive teams for most of his career .

 

[saxon]

I assume your talking career and not this year ... Seguin has had the luxuary of playing with Tim Thomas and Rask and one of the best defensive teams for most of his career .

Was mentioned by bigdik earlier in this thread. This year Seguin +9, Kessel -1. Explain please lol.

 

[tribunus]

I would like to thank Burke emphatically for acquiring van Riemsdyk for Schenn. Young 6'3 fowards with high-end skill, can skate and wililng to take punishment in front of the net don't grow on trees, and he got one for a plodding defensiveman who is getting benched regularly this season in Philadephia. The Kessel deal has it's merits now since Phil The Franchise has played at an all-star level for several seasons in a row, but the JVR trade is an absolute steal.

 

[shack]

Was mentioned by bigdik earlier in this thread. This year Seguin +9, Kessel -1. Explain please lol.

The Leafs as a team are -11 and the Stars are only -1, so there is the 10.

 

[Bargnani_]

I would like to thank Burke emphatically for acquiring van Riemsdyk for Schenn. Young 6'3 fowards with high-end skill, can skate and wililng to take punishment in front of the net don't grow on trees, and he got one for a plodding defensiveman who is getting benched regularly this season in Philadephia. The Kessel deal has it's merits now since Phil The Franchise has played at an all-star level for several seasons in a row, but the JVR trade is an absolute steal.

You can add Bozak , they goT Joffrey Lupul , Jake Gardiner for BEAUCHEMIN ( who was a free agent signings ) and so 3 players added without really giving up anything .

 

[Ironhead]

Hey, it's an opinion. I have watched both Kessel and Seguin quite a lot. They are very different players.
My opinion is that complete players are very valuable. Seguin is much better defensively than Kessel, probably because Phil doesn't like to play defense.
When you say Kessel has "easily outperformed Seguin" you've chosen your stats carefully.
They are both valuable players for their teams but as the Stars improve and Seguin matures he brings a lot to the table. I see a lot of Bergeron in him. That's heavy praise.
Kessel is what he is, an elite scorer. That's a great ability to have but there's two ends of the rink. He's not going to become a 2 way player.
In those 4 seasons Seguin is +62, Kessel -34. Just sayin............

What a coincidence you chose your stats quite carefully also.

 

[Ironhead]

Spot on. When you are near the bottom of the league you have to protect your draft picks. Burke's biggest mistake was overestimating the talent on the Leafs roster when he made the trade. It's beginning to look like Garth Snow made the same mistake with Vanek. Looks like the Islanders will try to get something back for him now that he won't resign there but it certainly won't be as good as their 1st rd. pick they gave the Sabres. Snow should be fired now IMHO

Biggest mistake ? Like him(Kessel) or not Burke did get Kessel one of the best goal scores in the game who, as we see, is quite adept at setting up teammates as well.

Holy Shit! I'm speechless! Did you just compare Kessel to Gretzky in this incoherent mess? I'm sorry stucatz269 but you are exactly why so many leaf fans are hard to take seriously. Avid, but unaware.

No he did not. He compared the trade.
You are in too much of a hurry to slam Leaf Fans to notice the difference.

Was mentioned by bigdik earlier in this thread. This year Seguin +9, Kessel -1. Explain please lol.

According to what you posted ...
Seguin is +9; means that he was on the ice for 'nine goals for' more then 'goals against'.
Kessel -1; was on the ice for one more goal against the Leafs then he has been on when the Leafs score goals.

There you go Saxon. I hope this helps you in the future.

 

[saxon]

Biggest mistake ? Like him(Kessel) or not Burke did get Kessel one of the best goal scores in the game who, as we see, is quite adept at setting up teammates



No he did not. He compared the trade.
You are in too much of a hurry to slam Leaf Fans to notice the difference.






According to what you posted ...
Seguin is +9; means that he was on the ice for 'nine goals for' more then 'goals against'.
Kessel -1; was on the ice for one more goal against the Leafs then he has been on when the Leafs score goals.

There you go Saxon. I hope this helps you in the future.

Gee, thanks for explaining that for me, I never would have figured that out all by myself lol.

 

[Bargnani_]

How about in a Cap world

Dougie Hamilton 894,000 ( Serviceable Defenseman )
Seguin 5.5 ( till 2018/19 )

Phil 8 million dollars ..

 

[smuddan]

I would like to thank Burke emphatically for acquiring van Riemsdyk for Schenn. Young 6'3 fowards with high-end skill, can skate and wililng to take punishment in front of the net don't grow on trees, and he got one for a plodding defensiveman who is getting benched regularly this season in Philadephia. The Kessel deal has it's merits now since Phil The Franchise has played at an all-star level for several seasons in a row, but the JVR trade is an absolute steal.

If JVR continues to develop in a way we can reasonably expect him to, it'll turn out to be the best steal the Leafs made in the last 30 years. The Gilmour trade was THE best steal for the Leafs, but he only played productively for 2-3 years for the Leafs. JVR has all the tools and youthfulness to last for a much longer period, the only thing he needs to prove is what kind of heart he has. If its anything close to the Gilmour's, he may turn out to be one of the best Leaf wingers.

As for the Kessel/Seguin comparison, I honestly can't argue who's a better TEAM player as I haven't really watched Seguin that much except only when he played against the Leafs; but for what I've seen I can say there no way Seguin will ever offer the kind of enjoyment that Kessel offers when playing his best. The blazing speed when he rushes up ice forcing the defenders to back up was a beauty to watch. The scoring touches that you'd only seen from very selected few in the history of the game. From the very few games I've watched Seguin played, I've never seen anything close.

As for +/-, Seguin has the advantage of having played mostly with one of the best defensive team in the league. He has never had to play with turnover machines like Gardiner, Franson, Kadri & company. I had always thought Kessel was a one dimensional player, but he has won me over after the coaching change. What's more impressive was that he took his game to a higher level after he signed a new deal. That proves to me he has a big heart.