Talk About Fake Numbers

[TeeJay]

Gotta love the "more accurate" spin
So uh turns out we really do not have a record high number of covid cases in ICU
We are now overcounting to "be safe"

This stuff just gets funnier every day
So now not only does a person who died WITH covid (not FROM covid) still count as a covid death

NOW a person in ICU who tests out NEGATIVE will still be counted amongst ACTIVE covid cases in ICU
I could not make this stuff up if I tried its too insane

Oh and also; these "active" cases are not due to any comm transmission (in other words lockdowns are irrelevant) because they have been stuck in the ICU for "so long" that they have recovered from the actual covid virus


"Up until now, patients who eventually tested negative—but were still in the ICU due to COVID-19 complications—were taken out of the province’s reported daily total. This resulted in a lower reported number of patients who were actually still in the ICU due to the virus.

With the newly updated numbers, there are an additional 27 patients being reported in intensive care.

“You have a significant amount of people who were staying in the ICU with COVID for so long that they actually stopped testing positive for the virus, but the virus has done such a number on their body that they still require critical care,” Jean-Paul Soucy, infectious disease epidemiologist and PhD student at the University of Toronto, told CTVNews.ca

Ontario provides more accurate ICU numbers after previously reporting a portion of patients

Ontario is now providing a more accurate picture of how many people sickened by COVID-19 are ending up in intensive care units, by including in the daily counts patients who are still requiring care in ICUs, but are no longer testing positive.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[squeezer]

Gotta love the "more accurate" spin
So uh turns out we really do not have a record high number of covid cases in ICU
We are now overcounting to "be safe"

This stuff just gets funnier every day
So now not only does a person who died WITH covid (not FROM covid) still count as a covid death

NOW a person in ICU who tests out NEGATIVE will still be counted amongst ACTIVE covid cases in ICU
I could not make this stuff up if I tried its too insane

Oh and also; these "active" cases are not due to any comm transmission (in other words lockdowns are irrelevant) because they have been stuck in the ICU for "so long" that they have recovered from the actual covid virus


"Up until now, patients who eventually tested negative—but were still in the ICU due to COVID-19 complications—were taken out of the province’s reported daily total. This resulted in a lower reported number of patients who were actually still in the ICU due to the virus.

With the newly updated numbers, there are an additional 27 patients being reported in intensive care.

“You have a significant amount of people who were staying in the ICU with COVID for so long that they actually stopped testing positive for the virus, but the virus has done such a number on their body that they still require critical care,” Jean-Paul Soucy, infectious disease epidemiologist and PhD student at the University of Toronto, told CTVNews.ca

Ontario provides more accurate ICU numbers after previously reporting a portion of patients

Ontario is now providing a more accurate picture of how many people sickened by COVID-19 are ending up in intensive care units, by including in the daily counts patients who are still requiring care in ICUs, but are no longer testing positive.

www.ctvnews.ca

You are frggen NUTS!

 

[TeeJay]

You are frggen NUTS!

No counting a person who never had covid or who recovered from covid IN the daily count is nuts

We have fake deaths, fake ICU, fake cases
Its absurd

 

[squeezer]

No counting a person who never had covid or who recovered from covid IN the daily count is nuts

We have fake deaths, fake ICU, fake cases
Its absurd

A person who's body has been ravaged by COVID and still needs treatment from what COVID caused is what? Are you insane?

Also, where does it say anywhere in the article fake cases?? Stop pulling bullshit out of your ass!

 

[Valcazar]

What are you objecting to here, TeeJay?

Someone goes in with COVID, gets so fucked up by it they end up in Intensive Care. They are still in intensive care but their body has cleared the virus.

The old way was they are no longer listed as a COVID case in the ICU.
The new is they are, since that is what put them in the ICU.

As a measure of how the ICU situation has been impacted by COVID, I think the new way is a better measure, but it isn't like the old way is invalid.

 

[TeeJay]

What are you objecting to here, TeeJay?

Person A is suspected they have Covid (due to symptoms)
They go to ICU and get tested (negative)
They are counted among active Covid cases (yes they need ICU, yes they are sick, but in that scenario they may not even have had Covid; going by symptoms alone it could have been anything, even the Flu that put them there)

Person B has Covid
They go to ICU due to complications
While in ICU they recover from Covid but now need to deal with an underlying health issue caused by Covid
They are counted among active Covid cases (should be resolved, and then counted under whatever the result health issue was)


My objection is that the media loves to flog this horse to try and make numbers as big and scary as possible
A & B are directly referenced in link but if they exist I am sure others do as well
They are falsely inflating the active cases (when resolved cases is more apt)



Think this way
You are in a car accident and suffer a serious internal injury
You go to hospital, surgery to fix, and then sent to ICU to recover
A month later still in ICU because something like hemophilia
While recovery in ICU you are not there as an accident victim, and if you died you died because of complications (yes that originated with accident but you died of something else than accident itself)

 

[Jenesis]

If a person has cancer and that cancer are through their liver causing liver failure, they still died of cancer.

That is the way it works. That is the way it has always worked and is the basis of how the health care system is set up.

They had COVID. They are still suffering from the virus. Their case is. It restocked because their health has not recovered.

 

[shack]

If a person has cancer and that cancer are through their liver causing liver failure, they still died of cancer.

That is the way it works. That is the way it has always worked and is the basis of how the health care system is set up.

They had COVID. They are still suffering from the virus. Their case is. It restocked because their health has not recovered.

You're wasting your breath, figuratively speaking. It's been explained to them umpteen times already. They are oblivious to even the simplest of facts.

 

[Captain Bly]

You're wasting your breath, figuratively speaking. It's been explained to them umpteen times already. They are oblivious to even the simplest of facts.

Simple is the right word in more ways than one

 

[TeeJay]

If a person has cancer and that cancer are through their liver causing liver failure, they still died of cancer.

No they did not they died of liver failure in your example

Ok better example is HIV
HIV is certainly a factor in death but most deaths are NOT recorded as HIV deaths, they are recorded under what actually kills the person

 

[Jenesis]

No they did not they died of liver failure in your example

Ok better example is HIV
HIV is certainly a factor in death but most deaths are NOT recorded as HIV deaths, they are recorded under what actually kills the person

That is not how it works.

 

[Valcazar]

Ok better example is HIV
HIV is certainly a factor in death but most deaths are NOT recorded as HIV deaths, they are recorded under what actually kills the person

Why do you think that is how it works?

 

[MissCroft]

Why do you think that is how it works?

To be fair, I do think that is how it works with HIV/AIDS. I don't think they put AIDS on the death certificate as the official cause of death but usually Bronchial Pneumonia, etc. But I think they do state that it was due to complications of AIDS. That's what they did on Freddie Mercury's death certificate anyway.

 

[Valcazar]

To be fair, I do think that is how it works with HIV/AIDS. I don't think they put AIDS on the death certificate as the official cause of death but usually Bronchial Pneumonia, etc. But I think they do state that it was due to complications of AIDS. That's what they did on Freddie Mercury's death certificate anyway.

That was a long time ago.
You are supposed to put underlying cause on death certificates.

 

[TeeJay]

Why do you think that is how it works?

For Covid? Because that is exactly what they said

Or if you mean for HIV because virtually noone in Canada dies of it as cause
Someone who has HIV and dies of the Flu is recorded under Flu deaths


*edit saw your response to other poster

They always mention underlying causes that is not what I was referring to
I am referring to if you were to look at stats
We may have 2,000 HIV related deaths, but HIV is not listed as cause of death
Other issues (Flu being a major one) are the group they are recorded under

 

[MissCroft]

That was a long time ago.
You are supposed to put underlying cause on death certificates.

Yes, the underlying cause was stated. His death certificate apparently lists Bronchial Pneumonia as the official cause of death and also states due to complications from AIDS.

But AIDS is very different from Covid-19 in that it doesn't cause death directly but weakens the immune system so that you end up dying from something else. I understand that it's very different.

 

[Valcazar]

Yes, the underlying cause was stated. His death certificate apparently lists Bronchial Pneumonia as the official cause of death and also states due to complications from AIDS.

But AIDS is very different from Covid-19 in that it doesn't cause death directly but weakens the immune system so that you end up dying from something else. I understand that it's very different.

Yes and no. Death certificates usually have three major elements if I am remembering correctly.

1) "Manner of Death" - That's the context of the death, the circumstances: "accident", "suicide", "homicide", "natural causes" - stuff like that.

2) "Immediate Cause of Death" - The proximate cause - the final diagnostic condition causing the death. Has to be something specific. "Acute renal failure", "Sepsis from e Coli" etc.

3) "Underlying Cause of Death" - that's the core diagnosis or condition that's driving the sequence of conditions that lead to you dying. That's the long-term condition in the chain of events. It needs to make clear that you can trace the chain of conditions to the death from it. So that is where you get HIV, or Coronary Artery Disease, or Metastatic Liver cancer.


You list other significant, but not directly linked, conditions separately.

So if you look at the liver cancer example earlier, it would be something like Manner of Death - natural causes; Immediate Cause - whatever consequence of the liver failure finally kills you (I think you end up with toxicity issues without a liver working properly); Underlying Cause would be the liver cancer - with a list of all the things it set off to get to that end point.

Back when Freddie Mercury died, the rules for determining HIV as underlying cause weren't the same as they are now. (And, of course, there was all kinds of stigma involved in listing AIDS on the certificate.)

Or if you mean for HIV because virtually noone in Canada dies of it as cause
Someone who has HIV and dies of the Flu is recorded under Flu deaths

We may have 2,000 HIV related deaths, but HIV is not listed as cause of death
Other issues (Flu being a major one) are the group they are recorded under

We should look that up. I don't believe you are correct, but you may be. I was under the impression underlying cause of deaths is included in the statistics.

 

[Valcazar]

We should look that up. I don't believe you are correct, but you may be. I was under the impression underlying cause of deaths is included in the statistics.

As I thought.
If we go back to our StatsCan data we get the following:

Deaths due to COVID-19, are those for which COVID-19 was found to be the underlying cause of death, defined by the World Health Organization as the disease or injury which initiated the train of events leading directly to death; or, as the circumstances of the accident or violence which produced the fatal injury.

Also, in the actual cause of death tables they publish, https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310081001 , you can find

Footnote 14: The cause of death tabulated is the underlying cause of death. This is defined as (a) the disease or injury which initiated the train of events leading directly to death, or (b) the circumstances of the accident or violence which produced the fatal injury. The underlying cause is selected from the conditions listed on the medical certificate of cause of death.

The underlying cause of death is the one listed.

 

[basketcase]

TJ posting a thread about fake numbers? Seems pretty par for the course.

 

[basketcase]

What are you objecting to here, TeeJay?

Someone goes in with COVID, gets so fucked up by it they end up in Intensive Care. They are still in intensive care but their body has cleared the virus.

The old way was they are no longer listed as a COVID case in the ICU.
The new is they are, since that is what put them in the ICU.

As a measure of how the ICU situation has been impacted by COVID, I think the new way is a better measure, but it isn't like the old way is invalid.

Obviously if someone is in a car crash and ends up in the ICU, they shouldn't be counted as a car accident because the car is no longer hitting them.


See, it's easy to join the TJ club.