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Sweden model deemed a success

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Its also way too early to call Sweden a disaster.
...
Longer covid peak and way more deaths for a current number of daily cases similar to their neighbours despite those countries entering the second wave. Unless 20% of the population magically causes herd immunity, Sweden will be hitting a second wave soon, especially if your reliable facebook friend is correct and there is very little support for simple precautions.
 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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Its also way too early to call Sweden a disaster.
Relative to their 3 neighbours, which is the only valid comparison, it does seem unlikely Sweden will not end up with way more deaths.


As of right now they are doing well without stupid masks and other economy destroying measures
In the big picture they are failing badly relative to their 3 neighbours.

Masks don't destroy the economy, but result in people being employed in various capacities such as manufacturing and distribution. They also keep people employed rather than being sick at home or dead. And make it safer to open economies.

If they catch on with significantly more people post C-19 than pre C-19 they will save many lives, and spare many from serious illnesses, in the years & decades to come.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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Sweden will be hitting a second wave soon
Post bookmarked for future reference. I'm willing to bet you they won't get much of a 2nd wave.
Some scientists believe Sweden have already got herd immunity
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Relative to their 3 neighbours, which is the only valid comparison, it does seem unlikely Sweden will not end up with way more deaths.

In the big picture they are failing badly relative to their 3 neighbours
Here's is where I think you're wrong. Looking at historical data Sweden has approximately 91,000 deaths per year.
Right now as of September 14th, 2020 their death rate doesnt appear to be out of the ordinary.
Since almost all deaths in Sweden from Covid occurred in retirement homes, that then tells me the vast majority of deaths were old people who were gonna die this year anyways. The virus merely sped things up by about 9 months or so.

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

Chart:
 

squeezer

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Jan 8, 2010
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Post bookmarked for future reference. I'm willing to bet you they won't get much of a 2nd wave.
Some scientists believe Sweden have already got herd immunity
Don't let the facts get in the way, keep on truckin.

 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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Here's is where I think you're wrong. Looking at historical data Sweden has approximately 91,000 deaths per year.
Right now as of September 14th, 2020 their death rate doesnt appear to be out of the ordinary.
According to your chart the rate of deaths this year is 500 more per month, or 6000 more in 12 months, than last year. So that would be out of the ordinary, not ordinary.

Furthermore, unusual & extreme safety measures that have been ordered and or practiced by millions in Sweden this year have reduced deaths by car accidents, the flu & other communicable diseases. Yet, in spite of that, deaths are way higher this year relative to 2019.

Since almost all deaths in Sweden from Covid occurred in retirement homes, that then tells me the vast majority of deaths were old people who were gonna die this year anyways. The virus merely sped things up by about 9 months or so.
That is largely the case worldwide. Yet Sweden's death numbers are exponentially worse than their 3 Viking neighbours.

Sweden's number of infected has also been way higher than those 3 Nordic nations. So Sweden is more likely to have more long term C-19 sufferers.
 

escortsxxx

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Jul 15, 2004
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Tdot
Sorry, I'm not buying that explanation.
In Sweden there has to be lots of people who aren't following the rules, just as in any other country
You have not traveled. In Japan if you lose your wallet, it will likely be at your house when you get home dropped in the mail slot. In the USA you might get it back minus the money. Countries have a wide variance of following the rules or not - you might disagree with why this is caused (as there are no absolute studies to confirm any theory) but not to the fact that Somila , USA, Canada, Gemany, Syria and Japan all have major differnces in rule compliance - with some overlap (USA and Canada, compared to others are close to idenitical - thought citizens of those countries might disagree)
 
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escortsxxx

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Tdot
In a related issue, Sweden prositution laws - our model - have given rise to a rise in domestic violence.
 

escortsxxx

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Tdot
That's a small, small price to pay for your liberty, Know! The US fought for 10 years for gain its freedom and suffered a million dead from British oppression. You won't even push your way into Metro and call the security guards "Trudeau's Nazi Gestapo" when they ask you to put on a mask.

That's the sort of lackluster spirit which has brought our country to its knees. I expected better of you and frankly I am disappointed!

If you have posts in the past about the Patriot act and the Anti-Terrorism Act
of Canada I prone to take this more seriously - both of those are a far worse infringement of freedoms.
And the rules duing WWII to protect the freedoms you cite where far harsher and included gas mask wearing.
Rationing, lights out, curfew, conscription, mass censorship etc.
Pandemics effects of the 100 year visit have been less and less each cycle, largly because of learned knowledgeof quartine, hygine and masks. Admittedly Covid current 2 mutations are fairly minor, but the prudent thing with a diseae is to assume a high state of alert - especially with one that travels so easily.

1600529547610.png 1600529653116.png
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Don't let the facts get in the way, keep on truckin.

The scientist who advised against a lockdown is considered a national hero back in Sweden:

 

Phil C. McNasty

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According to your chart the rate of deaths this year is 500 more per month, or 6000 more in 12 months, than last year. So that would be out of the ordinary, not ordinary.

Furthermore, unusual & extreme safety measures that have been ordered and or practiced by millions in Sweden this year have reduced deaths by car accidents, the flu & other communicable diseases. Yet, in spite of that, deaths are way higher this year relative to 2019.



That is largely the case worldwide. Yet Sweden's death numbers are exponentially worse than their 3 Viking neighbours.

Sweden's number of infected has also been way higher than those 3 Nordic nations. So Sweden is more likely to have more long term C-19 sufferers
Not if the daily death rate is slowing down (which it is).
You cannot say deaths are way higher until its the end of the year and al the deaths have been tallied.
I will revisit this thread on January 1st 2021 to see if if deaths are higher this year compared to previous years
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Even though antibody testing shows results in less than 20% of the population...

Some scientists believe aliens have visited the Earth
You are wrong about the fact that only antibodies are needed to reach herd immunity.
Read this article on T-cells: https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid-19-is-probably-higher-than-tests-have-shown

Immunity to COVID-19 is probably higher than tests have shown

A new study from Karolinska Institutet and Karolinska University Hospital shows that many people with mild or asymptomatic COVID-19 demonstrate so-called T-cell-mediated immunity to the new coronavirus, even if they have not tested positively for antibodies. According to the researchers, this means that public immunity is probably higher than antibody tests suggest. The article has been published in the esteemed scientific journal Cell.

“T cells are a type of white blood cells that are specialised in recognising virus-infected cells, and are an essential part of the immune system,” says Marcus Buggert, assistant professor at the Center for Infectious Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, and one of the paper’s main authors. “Advanced analyses have now enabled us to map in detail the T-cell response during and after a COVID-19 infection. Our results indicate that roughly twice as many people have developed T-cell immunity compared with those who we can detect antibodies in.”


Consultant Soo Aleman and her colleagues at Karolinska University Hospital’s infection clinic have monitored and tested patients and their families since the disease period.


“One interesting observation was that it wasn’t just individuals with verified COVID-19 who showed T-cell immunity but also many of their exposed asymptomatic family members,” says Soo Aleman. “Moreover, roughly 30 per cent of the blood donors who’d given blood in May 2020 had COVID-19-specific T cells, a figure that’s much higher than previous antibody tests have shown.”


The T-cell response was consistent with measurements taken after vaccination with approved vaccines for other viruses. Patients with severe COVID-19 often developed a strong T-cell response and an antibody response; in those with milder symptoms it was not always possible to detect an antibody response, but despite this many still showed a marked T-cell response.


“Our results indicate that public immunity to COVID-19 is probably significantly higher than antibody tests have suggested,” says Professor Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren at the Center for Infectious Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, and co-senior author. “If this is the case, it is of course very good news from a public health perspective.”


T-cell analyses are more complicated to perform than antibody tests and at present are therefore only done in specialised laboratories, such as that at the Center for Infectious Medicine at Karolinska Institutet.


“Larger and more longitudinal studies must now be done on both T cells and antibodies to understand how long-lasting the immunity is and how these different components of COVID-19 immunity are related,” says Marcus Buggert.


The results were first published on 29 June 2020 on a preprint server, bioRxiv (see box) and a previous version of this news article was then published. The study has now undergone peer review and been published in the scientific journal Cell. In connection with this, Cell Press issued a press release about the results.


The study was financed by the Knut and Alice Wallenberg Foundation, Nordstjernan AB, the Swedish Research Council, Karolinska Institutet, the Swedish Society for Medical Research, the Jeansson Foundations, the Åke Wiberg Foundation, the Swedish Society of Medicine, the Swedish Cancer Society, the Swedish Childhood Cancer Foundation, the Magnus Bergvall Foundation, the Hedlund Foundation, the Lars Hierta Foundation, the Swedish Physicians against AIDS foundation, the Jonas Söderquist Foundation, the Clas Groschinsky Memorial Foundation, and the Wellcome Trust. The authors report no conflicts of interest or patents associated with the results of the study
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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You are wrong about the fact that only antibodies are needed to reach herd immunity.
Read this article on T-cells: https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid-19-is-probably-higher-than-tests-have-shown
Did you bother reading the study? Or even the entire article? They are pretty clear that at this point they can't comment on how well or how long T-cell memory have the ability to fight re-infection. Maybe it can affect herd immunity but the authors are quite clear that conclusion can't be supported yet.


To simplify their findings

“Larger and more longitudinal studies must now be done on both T cells and antibodies to understand how long-lasting the immunity is and how these different components of COVID-19 immunity are related,” says Marcus Buggert.
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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Did you bother reading the study? Or even the entire article? They are pretty clear that at this point they can't comment on how well or how long T-cell memory have the ability to fight re-infection. Maybe it can affect herd immunity but the authors are quite clear that conclusion can't be supported yet.


To simplify their findings

“Larger and more longitudinal studies must now be done on both T cells and antibodies to understand how long-lasting the immunity is and how these different components of COVID-19 immunity are related,” says Marcus Buggert.
Yes, but you are still wrong that antibodies are the only way humans achieve immunity. T-cell mediated immunity also plays a large part. So when you say only 10% of Swedes have immunity to Covid because they carry the antibodies, you are only telling half of the story
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Sweden's Covid-19 deaths per million compared to some other EU countries

 

Mr.Know-It-All

Giver of truth
Jul 26, 2020
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Most people are asymptomatic. Scientists conclude that over 1 billion people have been infected. That's 1 out of every 7 people on the planet. Like herpes, you're going to get it too (with or without a mask, with or without social distancing). Better hit the gym and get in better shape.
 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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" "The trends are quickly going in the wrong direction," Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven wrote on Facebook earlier this week. "More are infected. More are dying. This is a serious situation."

This post was the first from the prime minister since he went into self-isolation, after revealing that someone close to him had had contact with a person who tested positive for COVID-19.

By taking this step, Lofven is going beyond his government's own coronavirus regulations. There is almost no country in the world where a second-degree contact is required to go into quarantine, let alone Sweden.

 
Ashley Madison
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