Speculation and Bravado

[DB123]

Most of the fear mongering on here is from people who don't even hobby and thus have no stake or vested interest in what is going to happen. If you don't even hobby then why are you even here?

Been saying this for as long as I've been on here. There must be thousands of forums out there for people who DON'T hobby, just pick one and fuck off already

 

[MIRAGE]

Been saying this for as long as I've been on here. There must be thousands of forums out there for people who DON'T hobby, just pick one and fuck off already

Basket weaving, paper kite making, moose calling, searching for big foot, red bellied sap sucker watching, paper mache, eyebrow plucking, toe nail art................the list of other hobbies is endless


Andy

 

[MPAsquared]

I have read, with vested interest of course, most of the C36 threads.

It is pure speculation what is being proclaimed by certain posters, that we have nothing to fear, but this is by those who either haven't really looked at the long term and very real personal and for some, professional consequences and those that have the very real potential of lost business, that come with regards to C36.

One can consult a room full of lawyers with regards to C36, but even their counsel is just their interpretation of the laws and how they see a way to argue a clients point of view. A lawyer with a moral dilemma would be the only one who would turn such a client down. As business owners, have you made it clear that your employees can be subpoenaed to appear in court and their real names and occupation will be made public? If you haven't done this, then you haven't made them aware of the risk to their anonymity and how this might affect their very real personal lives.

To say that this or that police force will not enforce a law is also erroneous and that Harper cannot make them enforce this new law. I am not surprised that if questioned, a chief of police, would say anything about how their force would go about enforcing a new law, one does not tip ones own hand after all. The statement "low hanging fruit" and who that pertains to is also misleading as it is all "low hanging fruit". With regards to how the police acted in the past, with regards to the profession, it will be on a complaint based system and anyone can lodge that complaint and tell the police about their suspicions or just lodge a complaint about something not related to the trade, ie; noise, parking, foot traffic, etc. With regards to the police and "low hanging fruit", the police will act as they always have, but now they are armed with new legislation and can enforce this law as they and the crown see fit. People will still get arrested. Some will see the inside of a courtroom as well. Lives on both sides of the coin, consumers and "companions", will get ruined. This is an indisputable truth.

How the police will go about laying charges and what evidence they will use is an argument that will be borne out in the courts. The assertion that the use of circumstantial evidence will not be a factor is also an erroneous statement. Many a case has been brought to light using circumstantial evidence and when fleshing the case out they uncover direct evidence that supports their original lead.

The bravado from those with everything to lose, after all it is a business that they have built, just like any other business, but they have to understand that we as consumers, have to look at the very real consequences that we would have the burden to bear. That burden can be personal (the demise of a family unit) and professional (termination, passed over for promotion, passed over as a job applicant) and can have long standing consequences attached to it. Anyone who has had to undergo a police check for a job/coaching/volunteering knows that your past can certainly haunt you if you have been charged. The bravado of other consumers is not my concern, but they have no need to call into question the decision that many have made with regards to C36.

Undeniable truths are, this law will have enforcement. How the police/crown make charges stick and present their case in court is an unknown, but know this, it will happen. The when's, where's and such are as yet to be determined.

You haven't read them all then. Personally, I have yet to say status quo, yet to say I'm anything but bias, yet to say everything is rainbows & cupcakes.

How is advocating, lobbying, & fighting for sex workers rights self-serving?

We had a 3hr staff meeting going over C-36 clause by clause. With ample consultation from as many aspects, professionals, and angles as possible. Who are you referring to when you say we haven't informed the providers? It is your responsibility to educate yourself about your personal risks in life. No one will hold your hand. We, as owners, have to have council because the legal landscape of the business has changed. Would the same not be expected in any other industry? How dare you condemn any owner for seeking counci! We're you at all our meetings? Do you know we didn't inquire about protecting the client? Or staff? You are out of your mind if you think we haven't.

Even if you take your greed angle, would protecting the staff & clients not serve to protect the investment? Sheesh!

I agree, Dirk. A lot of speculation, but none of the facts available yet. A lot of hobbyists will be watching closely to see how things roll out.

Safe hobbying? Well, C36 increases the risk level. So risk reduction is in order.

There seems to be a reasonable consensus around the notion that low volume discrete providers who are known to you will be low risk.

I also assume that jurisdictions will matter: that some municipalities/police districts will be more activist than others, Location location location.

I tend to assume that LE might well focus their attention based on advertising. But I'm not sure where to go from that idea. If we assumed they only looked at Backpages then it would help to base OUR searches on other media. But I don't know.

I find the idea (originating with dirkd101 in a Durham thread?) that LE is building a database of provider profiles logical and alarming. There could be some refined surveillance based on such a database. As opposed to a strategy of just raiding high-volume Queen St walk ups or Scarborough apartments.

Watch and learn, I guess. And share information as avidly as we have shared speculation.

There is no secret database. Lol. But talking to providers is not new. You guys simply don't know because you aren't providers.

wangbang,

I have nobody on ignore. I read with an open mind what is written. You're interpreting what you read and likening it to the fable.

One thing is for certain though, I have not read anything that can allay my fear of what can happen to me the consumer, as it is certainly spelled out in C36 as to what can happen to me. I have read how those with vested interest have put forth their best effort in trying to say that everything is status quo, nothing to worry about, we've consulted lawyers and there is nothing to worry about. Those with vested interest are certainly afraid of C36 and it is understandable that they would try and put to rest any fears had by the consumer. Just because a lawyer has been consulted, it is quite clear that the consultation was in order to see if they are in compliance with C36 and how it pertains to them in particular. Not the consumer or the companion. For the consumer, it is all spelled out, the full extent is unknown. For the companion, if charges have been laid, anonymity is lost and disclosure is brought about upon being subpoenaed.
On top of that, those consumers who advocate status quo, have not made one compelling argument, other than to say that the rest of are wrong and full of shit, don't know what they are talking about, pure speculation...the list can go on. Speaking of speculation, one can speculate with an informed opinion on matters, it's the uninformed speculation that is erroneous here and most of that is from the status quo side. Nobody is trying to tell you what to do, come the date in question. But writing informed posts is what is required here, for those who are seeking guidance in making a choice.

Have you seen Toronto's statement today? Sounds like you haven't. You should. Just watch. Some of us have worked tirelessly, endlessly, and sleeplessly to fight for what we believe in. We have made great strides. We will not stop. (and no, my personal fight isn't even about bodyrub parlours, it's about sex workers).

http://ward27news.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/LetterToPremier03DEC14.pdf

.... this is just the beginning.

"One can consult a room full of lawyers with regards to C36, but even their counsel is just their interpretation of the laws and how they see a way to argue a clients point of view. A lawyer with a moral dilemma would be the only one who would turn such a client down. As business owners, have you made it clear that your employees can be subpoenaed to appear in court and their real names and occupation will be made public? If you haven't done this, then you haven't made them aware of the risk to their anonymity and how this might affect their very real personal lives."

You're forgeting that this risk is not new and making it seem as though we are somehow remiss if we don't let those we represent know these risks is ludicrous.
Agencies have consulted lawyers certainly (I have ) but this is to ask their expert advice as to how these new laws affect how we operate. Changes are currently being implemented. Any responsible agency owner will have had this discussion in a reasonable and unbiased manner with both those we represent and any client that has questions.
You are right to say that we don't know the ramifications as yet but presenting the above as something new to fear just isn't responsible. Creating fear is just as irresponsible and damaging as saying there is nothing to fear.
Determine your comfort level and conduct yourself accordingly but please stop trying to scare people under the guise that you're helping or making others sound as though they only care about their bottom line.

Steph

Here here!!!!

 

[Veronica27]

Been saying this for as long as I've been on here. There must be thousands of forums out there for people who DON'T hobby, just pick one and fuck off already

You are quite the asshole!

You call it fear mongering. I call it a forum and giving my two cents worth to those who have saved me crap loads of money.

I wish someone had told me that there was a clampdown in York Region. I showed up at Delux the day after it was raided. I was lucky. I do not want any of my hobbying breathern to think too much with their other brain.

With that said, anyone who thinks C36 is the status quo, then why did Harper introduce it?

Easy Answer: There is an election coming. The Conservatives are considered the Law and Order folks. This C36 will be used in the next 10 months. After, it will be tied up in court. It will take years to get to the Supreme Court folks.

There is a lot of sympathy for the girls out there. There is none for the johns. Politically, C36 is incredibly smart. Soccer moms will love it. Divorced women will love it. Church goers will love it. Others, will not care, but they will have no empathy for the johns caught with their pants down.

Will it be enforced. For sure. But how and where? Let's call a spade a spade. It will depend on the police force. And the municipitality.

 

[MIRAGE]

............ ear candling, humpback whale scouting, building ant farms.....



Andy

 

[MIRAGE]

You are quite the asshole!

You call it fear mongering. I call it a forum and giving my two cents worth to those who have saved me crap loads of money.

With that said, anyone who thinks C36 is the status quo, then why did Harper introduce it?

Easy Answer: There is an election coming. The Conservatives are considered the Law and Order folks. This C36 will be used in the next 10 months. After, it will be tied up in court. It will take years to get to the Supreme Court folks.

There is a lot of sympathy for the girls out there. There is none for the johns. Politically, C36 is incredibly smart. Soccer moms will love it. Divorced women will love it. Church goers will love it. Others, will not care, but they will have no empathy for the johns caught with their pants down.

Will it be enforced. For sure. But how and where. Let's call a spade a spade. It will depend on the police force. And the municipitality.

http://ward27news.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/LetterToPremier03DEC14.pdf

 

[smuddan]

The stupidity of this new bill is that the guys who are scared into quitting are the ones that would never do any harm to the providers, these are the guys that have their reputations, jobs, families to worry if they're ever caught; and if they're so easily scared, how on earth would they do any harm to the providers ? This law is supposed to offer better protection for sp's but all it does is increase their chances of getting a real bad dude.

 

[Veronica27]

http://ward27news.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/LetterToPremier03DEC14.pdf

So what?

Wynne does not follow direction from left wing Toronto councillors. Where are the signatures with anyone with clout? You think she is going to do this? You obviously don't know her.

 

[DB123]

You are quite the asshole!

You call it fear mongering. I call it a forum and giving my two cents worth to those who have saved me crap loads of money.

I wish someone had told me that there was a clampdown in York Region. I showed up at Delux the day after it was raided. I was lucky. I do not want any of my hobbying breathern to think too much with their other brain.

With that said, anyone who thinks C36 is the status quo, then why did Harper introduce it?

Easy Answer: There is an election coming. The Conservatives are considered the Law and Order folks. This C36 will be used in the next 10 months. After, it will be tied up in court. It will take years to get to the Supreme Court folks.

There is a lot of sympathy for the girls out there. There is none for the johns. Politically, C36 is incredibly smart. Soccer moms will love it. Divorced women will love it. Church goers will love it. Others, will not care, but they will have no empathy for the johns caught with their pants down.

Will it be enforced. For sure. But how and where? Let's call a spade a spade. It will depend on the police force. And the municipitality.

Now that's just hurtful, Veronica, if that IS your name.

I wasn't actually referring to you (since from the first third of your diatribe - I never read the long ones - you seem to hobby); you get that, right?

 

[MPAsquared]

So what?

Wynne does not follow direction from left wing Toronto councillors. Where are the signatures with anyone with clout? You think she is going to do this? You obviously don't know her.

You don't know her either. Time will tell. But it's quite clear Toronto won't be enforcing it. And have joined the ranks of other cities who have also spoken out against this bill. Like Montreal, Saskatchewan, Vancouver, Quebec City, St. John's, Victoria.

 

[MIRAGE]

So what?

Wynne does not follow direction from left wing Toronto councillors. Where are the signatures with anyone with clout? You think she is going to do this? You obviously don't know her.

and you do ? Wynne is a liberal, a homosexual liberal at that, she has had her battles with the bible thumpers and their morals. she loves the conservatives. you tell me how vigorously you think she is gonna enforce their laws. go ahead, tell me Veronica

Andy

 

[Veronica27]

and you do ? Wynne is a liberal, a homosexual liberal at that, she has had her battles with the bible thumpers and their morals. she loves the conservatives. you tell me how vigorously you think she is gonna enforce their laws. go ahead, tell me Veronica

Andy

She is not going to suppress Bill C36.

She actually reads Bills. Unlike the left wing lemmings who signed the letter. The letter talks about sex workers. Not johns. But Bill C36 punishes johns, not sex workers.

 

[MIRAGE]

She is not going to suppress Bill C36.

Nor will she squander tax dollars enforcing it.


Andy

 

[Veronica27]

Nor will she squander tax dollars enforcing it.


Andy

You are entitled to your opinion. No matter how wrong it is.

BTW. She does not control the city cops.

In TO, not one single councillor with clout signed you letter. Tory is and will always be a Tory.

 

[Avatar]

She is not going to suppress Bill C36.

She actually reads Bills. Unlike the left wing lemmings who signed the letter. The letter talks about sex workers. Not johns. But Bill C36 punishes johns, not sex workers.

Can you count ? 25 councillors signed the letter to Wynne and there are 44 councillors. 25 is a majority in city council. That's what counts in a democracy, not whether a councillor is left-leaning or right-leaning!

 

[MIRAGE]

You are entitled to your opinion. No matter how wrong it is.

BTW. She does not control the city cops.

In TO, not one single councillor with clout signed you letter. Tory is and will always be a Tory.

You know young fella, i think i have spent a little more time and money than you have, to come up with this opinion of mine. but you are right, i am entitled to my wrong opinion. But again you are right, the left wing right wing chicken wing will over rule a MAJORITY of councilors.

Andy

 

[squeezer]

You know young fella, i think i have spent a little more time and money than you have, to come up with this opinion of mine. but you are right, i am entitled to my wrong opinion.

Andy

Young fella, I thought Veronica is female. She kind of reminds me of one of the pissed off abolitionist sex workers.

 

[MIRAGE]

Young fella, I thought Veronica is female. She kind of reminds me of one of the pissed off abolitionist sex workers.

jesus man, i didnt know, i thought she was a dude. lol. sorry Veronica


Andy

 

[squeezer]

jesus man, i didnt know, i thought he was a dude.


Andy

If it is a dude, he sure likes girly names.

 

[Veronica27]

Can you count ? 25 councillors signed the letter to Wynne and there are 44 councillors. 25 is a majority in city council. That's what counts in a democracy, not whether a councillor is left-leaning or right-leaning!

That's because they didn't read Bill C36. They were told that Bill C36 will put prostitutes out on the street corners. The letter just talks about sex workers who were not going to be charged anyways.

It does not say, please, please don't enforce the part about the johns.

Signed, John (who is not going to be a john in a few days). What are guys who go to strip clubs called? Anyone seen a stripper named Veronica? I have been looking for her for 9 years. She would have just turned 36 the other day.