Six dead after bus crashes with Via train at marked crossing in Ottawa.

[GameBoy27]

1. The sight lines are not good as you can see from the diagram above. You come round the corner and the crossing is right there.

I don't believe for a second the corner is so sharp that a bus travelling at the speed limit when it rounds the corner doesn't have adequate time to stop if the signals are flashing.

And there should be a bridge.

How many accidents have there been at that crossing? Has there ever been a bus crash into a train? Rather than a bridge, why not install additional "BE PREPARED TO STOP" signals prior to the crossing to give vehicles advanced warning of an approaching train?

 

[wazup]

Both of these carriers run on schedules so you would think they meet on a daily or regular basis, apparently he was new on the route.

Something seems so odd, he was being yelled at to stop, he would be facing the train as he came around the corner, gates were down and flashing. I guess I'm jumping to conclusions.

 

[Aardvark154]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fall...lowfield+Rd,+Nepean,+Ontario,+Canada&t=m&z=19

Go to streetview* and look around it seems to me that the bus would have a decent line of sight particularly if the train was already in the crossing. I, however, fully agree that it seems entirely too broad and busy a street for a level crossing.


* click on the orange figure at the top of the zoom bar and then on the road.

 

[james t kirk]

People make mistakes when they drive.


He comes around the corner and he looks way down the road, past the railway crossing. Too far down the road in fact. (I've done it myself where I'm looking too far down the road and I miss what is right under my nose.) When we drive, we tend to look further down the road. He rounded the corner and he was looking past the crossing already. There is "sight lines" but there is also "Decision sight distance"


Decision sight distance is the distance required for a driver to detect an unexpected or otherwise difficult-to-perceive information source or hazard in a roadway environment that may be visually cluttered, recognize the hazard or its potential threat, select an appropriate speed and path, and initiate and complete the required safety maneuver safely and efficiently. Because decision sight distance gives drivers additional margin for error and affords them sufficient length to maneuver their vehicles at the same or reduced speed rather than to just stop, its values are substantially greater than the stopping sight distance.

Drivers need decision sight distances whenever there is a likelihood for error in either information reception, decision-making, or control actions. The following are examples of critical locations where these kinds of errors are likely to occur, and where it is desirable to provide decision sight distance: interchange and intersection locations where unusual or unexpected maneuvers are required; changes in cross section such as toll plazas and lane drops; and areas of concentrated demand where there is apt to be "visual noise" whenever sources of information compete, as those from roadway elements, traffic, traffic control devices, and advertising signs.

Decision sight distance values that will be applicable to most situations have been developed from empirical data. The decision sight distances vary depending on whether the location is on a rural or urban road, and on the type of maneuver required to avoid hazards and negotiate the location properly.


http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/niat...rofessionalpractice/DecisionSightDistance.htm


He probably would have seen the gates if they were further down the bus lane.

At 60 km/hr Design Speed (note, not Posted speed limit, Design Speed), he would need 170 to 230 metres minimum "Decision Sight Distance". With an 80 km/hr Design Speed, he needs 230 to 310 metres.

Did he have it?

So the question may be one of Civil Engineering. Was the road designed such that it gives the driver the correct decision sight distance from the time you round the curve to the railway crossing?

 

[GPIDEAL]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fall...lowfield+Rd,+Nepean,+Ontario,+Canada&t=m&z=19

Go to streetview* and look around it seems to me that the bus would have a decent line of sight particularly if the train was already in the crossing. I, however, fully agree that it seems entirely too broad and busy a street for a level crossing.


* click on the orange figure at the top of the zoom bar and then on the road.

Great post.


I've seen two lane road level crossings (like Islington Ave. north of Steeles, NW Toronto) but not four lane roads level crossings as far as I can remember.

How the heck did the bus driver not see the train coming from his right which has clear sight lines?

Hmmmm. Maybe he was on auto-pilot but only if gate arms didn't come down. Flashing lights are attention grabbing. They should do a complete autopsy on the driver.

 

[OddSox]

I've seen two lane road level crossings (like Islington Ave. north of Steeles, NW Toronto) but not four lane roads level crossings as far as I can remember. How the heck did the bus driver not see the train coming from his right which has clear sight lines? Hmmmm. Maybe he was on auto-pilot but only if gate arms didn't come down. Flashing lights are attention grabbing. They should do a complete autopsy on the driver.

Gate was down and lights flashing. The driver is a regular on the route so would have known the crossing was there. Who knows what happened? They may never find out.

Apparently they were going to upgrade the crossing some years ago - until the price tag went from $27 million up to $111 million because of site issues.

 

[spacyfoil]

Actually my old man has always asked me this question, maybe you guys can help.

Why not put a STOP sign at each and every railway crossing. Even with gates and lights.
Yes so it will slow the traffic. But would you rather be late if it could save even one life?

Tell me what are chances of accident if you were stopped before crossing? I bet you would look both ways. Good idea ? Or Bad ?

 

[blackrock13]

I think under the HTA buses are required to stop at a level crossing and open the door to listen for the train, regardless of the guard is down and the light is flashing.

Cars are not required to stop; you just have to look both ways. If you're doing a driving exam and stop at a level crossing, you will fail for impeding the flow of traffic. I speak from first-hand experience.

I believe it's only school buses in Ontario and certainly not a uniform guideline across Canada. A very large proportion of the fatalities at crossings in recent years has been young men driving around the barriers and ultimately paying for that brain cramp. You can litigate against stupid.

 

[wazup]

Actually my old man has always asked me this question, maybe you guys can help.

Why not put a STOP sign at each and every railway crossing. Even with gates and lights.
Yes so it will slow the traffic. But would you rather be late if it could save even one life?

Tell me what are chances of accident if you were stopped before crossing? I bet you would look both ways. Good idea ? Or Bad ?

I'll go with C) Terrible

 

[Fromspace]

I don't believe for a second the corner is so sharp that a bus travelling at the speed limit when it rounds the corner doesn't have adequate time to stop if the signals are flashing.



How many accidents have there been at that crossing? Has there ever been a bus crash into a train? Rather than a bridge, why not install additional "BE PREPARED TO STOP" signals prior to the crossing to give vehicles advanced warning of an approaching train?

Further to Gameboy's contribution, I'd add that the Transportation Safety Board, like everyone else, is puzzled about what happened. I think they should instal cameras to every railroad crossing. A small investment that can yield big dividends, for different purposes.

 

[spacyfoil]

I'll go with C) Terrible

Really how so?

 

[spacyfoil]

Further to Gameboy's contribution, I'd add that the Transportation Safety Board, like everyone else, is puzzled about what happened. I think they should instal cameras to every railroad crossing. A small investment that can yield big dividends, for different purposes.

I always drive with a Dash Can

Recommend it.

 

[spacyfoil]

I live in Oakville near a level crossing and I see Oakville Transit buses stop and open the doors all the time.

Thanks for that Cerium. But point is if our brains are already trained to stop at a red STOP sign, the chances are very slim that one would run through it. I say it would make it a lot safer. Not to mention its a cheap option. A.gate cost like 100 k ?

Yes it will impede traffic. So what? Save a life.

 

[fuji]

Might have done something dumb like slam on the accelerator instead of the brakes. It happens.

 

[james t kirk]

I live in Oakville near a level crossing and I see Oakville Transit buses stop and open the doors all the time.

EDIT: Public vehicles are required to stop in Ontario. HTA Section 174

Railway crossings

Public vehicles required to stop

174. (1) The driver of a public vehicle upon approaching on a highway a railway crossing that is not protected by gates or railway crossing signal lights, unless otherwise directed by a flagman, shall,

(a) stop the vehicle not less than 5 metres from the nearest rail of the railway;

(b) look in both directions along the railway track;

(c) open a door of the vehicle and listen to determine if any train is approaching;

(d) when it is safe to do so, cross the railway track in a gear that will not need to be changed while crossing the track; and

(e) not change gears while crossing the railway track. 1997, c. 12, s. 13.

The buses in Ottawa are federally regulated because they go into Hull.

Federal regulations do not require buses to stop at all RR crossings.

 

[spacyfoil]

The buses in Ottawa are federally regulated because they go into Hull.

Federal regulations do not require buses to stop at all RR crossings.

TSB is saying will take months to find out what happened. Gotta get a job with them.

 

[wazup]

Really how so?

Because this stuff kind of gets forgotten in a few weeks time and it's back to usual. People get all freaked out about train and plane crashes when they're actually fairly rare compared to the amount of traffic for each. These stop signs would be more of a hazard IMO simply because they would mostly be ignored over time.

Remember the Gulf oil spill a few years ago, everybody wanted a halt to ocean oil drilling, people died but now it's a distant memory, and there are over 1500 oil rigs in the world so accidents are fairly rare.

People don't put these accidents in any kind of perspective and look at percentages. With 7 billion people on the planet, shit's gonna happen. Trains cross roads so there's gonna be accidents. As I said earlier most people forget about these accidents fairly quickly except for the grieving families, anyone who denies that is lying.

I knew a guy that had a horrific workplace accident and all his co-workers witnessed it, the next day they all had hard hats on and had a safety blitz, slowly the hard hats all disappeared and it was back to business as usual, people simply forget about it if they're not directly affected by it.

If we tried to make everything 100% safe we'd all be fucking broke.

What is the history of this crossing, has there been a history of close calls, complaints, have there been accidents, if not then it must have been a safe crossing.

 

[spacyfoil]

Wazup you wrote "These stop signs would be more of a hazard IMO simply because they would mostly be ignored over time."

I disagree. Most people don't run through stop signs. They might do a rolling stop but at least they look before going into intersection.

Thanks for your elaborate response. But with all due respect, I suspect the answer to most people for not wanting a STOP sign is due to selfish reasons. Myself included. I would rather not have any signs on my own street. But they make everyone safe.

 

[thompo69]

I live in Oakville near a level crossing and I see Oakville Transit buses stop and open the doors all the time.

EDIT: Public vehicles are required to stop in Ontario. HTA Section 174

Railway crossings

Public vehicles required to stop

174. (1) The driver of a public vehicle upon approaching on a highway a railway crossing that is not protected by gates or railway crossing signal lights, unless otherwise directed by a flagman, shall,

(a) stop the vehicle not less than 5 metres from the nearest rail of the railway;

(b) look in both directions along the railway track;

(c) open a door of the vehicle and listen to determine if any train is approaching;

(d) when it is safe to do so, cross the railway track in a gear that will not need to be changed while crossing the track; and

(e) not change gears while crossing the railway track. 1997, c. 12, s. 13.

Thanks for posting that section. It is irrelevant to any discussion of this crash. Section 174 only applies to crossings that are not protected by gates and rail crossing lights. This one was.

 

[GameBoy27]

Might have done something dumb like slam on the accelerator instead of the brakes. It happens.

That doesn't make sense. Witnesses on the bus said they heard people screaming at the driver to brake which he eventually did but it was too late to stop.

I always drive with a Dash Can

Recommend it.

Via trains are being outfitted with cameras but that particular train hasn't had it installed yet.

This collision could have been a lot worse had the train t-boned the bus.

Actually my old man has always asked me this question, maybe you guys can help.

Why not put a STOP sign at each and every railway crossing. Even with gates and lights.
Yes so it will slow the traffic. But would you rather be late if it could save even one life?

Tell me what are chances of accident if you were stopped before crossing? I bet you would look both ways. Good idea ? Or Bad ? Silly ?

Silly! What makes you think the driver would have done anything differently if you were required to stop each time? You're already required to stop when the lights are flashing and the gate is down. That should be enough for most people, except in this case something went wrong.