Should We Have The Death Penalty For Child Killers?
- Thread starter TheNiteHwk
- Start date
Death penalty
My 2 cents worth:
1) Death is too easy - long time in jail could be worse.
2) Death penalty - what if you zap the wrong person?
3) Exception - possibly for a real psycho with no remorse, no chance for rehab, like Clifford Olsen,
then yes, like a bad tempered dog, it may be the best thing.
4) IN GENERAL, Our prisons do absolutely nothing for rehab - they could have program upon program all mandatory, to try and correct problems, but they do not.
My 2 cents worth:
1) Death is too easy - long time in jail could be worse.
2) Death penalty - what if you zap the wrong person?
3) Exception - possibly for a real psycho with no remorse, no chance for rehab, like Clifford Olsen,
then yes, like a bad tempered dog, it may be the best thing.
4) IN GENERAL, Our prisons do absolutely nothing for rehab - they could have program upon program all mandatory, to try and correct problems, but they do not.
papasmurf,
I used quotation marks so that the term was left open for interpretation. Doesn't civilisation evolve, and in doing so people learn different moral standards and how to deal with aggression, anger and frustration. We have come a long way in recent history, but have a long way to go. As long as killing in any form is acceptable, we may never be fully civilised, as it's a viscous circle and one that's hard to break given todays society and media.
Just food for thought ...
I used quotation marks so that the term was left open for interpretation. Doesn't civilisation evolve, and in doing so people learn different moral standards and how to deal with aggression, anger and frustration. We have come a long way in recent history, but have a long way to go. As long as killing in any form is acceptable, we may never be fully civilised, as it's a viscous circle and one that's hard to break given todays society and media.
Just food for thought ...
Interesting thpughts. we have gone from, Hunter Gatherers, to Growers and Gatherers. From there we went to Classes and defined positions in society. That was long before Christ. Even with all the advances we have had; we are still at this point. Do we evolve?? Have we designed a UTOPIA, Narvana or Zanidu??pool said:
In any socitey one must knlw to risk for lew violations. When one steals they must be punished, some would say lightly and some 10 fold. And in the taking of life one need to know the punishment will be equal to that crime. To allow murders walk and in this discussion child killers is what punishment?
Danielle!
"Calling me an idiot is just plain rude...."
On that one point you're correct. But then again your comments were just plain idiotic. Therefore I have no intention of apologizing.
If you really want me to, however, I can set out further evidence of your intellectual shortcomings. Let me give you a tip though. It would probably be a good idea if you thought carefully before responding.
"... you don't know me"
That's irrelevant. I don't need to know you to judge the "wisdom" of your opinions.
"... you may not like what I have to say , MY opinions or MY views, so go ahead and dispute them, it's your right.... we are not here for personal attacks, get it?"
You suggest that five people be killed for the crime of another and then you have the nerve to complain about my lack of manners? You need a lesson in perspective! If you can't handle being called an idiot, don't make inflammatory remarks! If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Or do you wish special dispensation on the basis of your sex?
"I am also not talking about speeders, mother who let thier kids cry and wake you up from your pleasant little nap, or any other group, I am talking about men who rape and murder children!... So stop getting off topic."
I'm not getting off topic. Had you the benefit of more formal education, you might have been able to see that I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument by using analogies to carry it through to its logical conclusion. It's called "reducto ad absurdum" in mathematics. If a postulate yields a logical contradiction, then that postulate is false.
"Yes, it's US and the safety of our children against THEM"
Do you really believe that twinning a "motherhood" statement with an independent assertion makes the combination true, right or justifiable? Sorry dear. I'm not that easy to fool. It doesn't.
Go back to raising your kids. When it comes to logic or matters of law, you're out of your depth.
Torex!
"CC ... so stop being an idiot please!"
Oh, so you want to play too? Well, I suppose I'll have to oblige.
"... calling Danielle an idiot isn't very nice."
Yes, I know, I know. But the depth and breadth of the idiotic opinions expressed on this board have been known to drive intelligent posters elsewhere and I just couldn't take it any more!
"personally if some motherf***** killed my child I in return would kill him and do life standing on my head!!or if need be they the system can kill me to but at least I will die knowing I made him suffer as he did my child!"
Talk's cheap. You daddy types always talk tough in these situations but then you're incapable of backing up your talk. Witness this following statement of yours:
"with all my ranting, honestly? I probably could'nt.
I think I would be stuck with hiring "Vinnie the Hitman" lol
"I know some of you soft hearted criminal loving people...."
Actually, some of us are so hard-hearted that not even instances of crimes most foul sway our reason. Keep in mind the old adage that "Extreme cases make for bad laws." It would seem, however, that you're not one of the coldly sensible types.
"I loose my common sense when I think what these poor children went through.
brings so much anger inside of me!"
BTW, the word you want is lose. You also really do need to work on your paragraph structure and misuse of capitals. Perhaps a remedial English course might help.
"Calling me an idiot is just plain rude...."
On that one point you're correct. But then again your comments were just plain idiotic. Therefore I have no intention of apologizing.
If you really want me to, however, I can set out further evidence of your intellectual shortcomings. Let me give you a tip though. It would probably be a good idea if you thought carefully before responding.
"... you don't know me"
That's irrelevant. I don't need to know you to judge the "wisdom" of your opinions.
"... you may not like what I have to say , MY opinions or MY views, so go ahead and dispute them, it's your right.... we are not here for personal attacks, get it?"
You suggest that five people be killed for the crime of another and then you have the nerve to complain about my lack of manners? You need a lesson in perspective! If you can't handle being called an idiot, don't make inflammatory remarks! If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Or do you wish special dispensation on the basis of your sex?
"I am also not talking about speeders, mother who let thier kids cry and wake you up from your pleasant little nap, or any other group, I am talking about men who rape and murder children!... So stop getting off topic."
I'm not getting off topic. Had you the benefit of more formal education, you might have been able to see that I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument by using analogies to carry it through to its logical conclusion. It's called "reducto ad absurdum" in mathematics. If a postulate yields a logical contradiction, then that postulate is false.
"Yes, it's US and the safety of our children against THEM"
Do you really believe that twinning a "motherhood" statement with an independent assertion makes the combination true, right or justifiable? Sorry dear. I'm not that easy to fool. It doesn't.
Go back to raising your kids. When it comes to logic or matters of law, you're out of your depth.
Torex!
"CC ... so stop being an idiot please!"
Oh, so you want to play too? Well, I suppose I'll have to oblige.
"... calling Danielle an idiot isn't very nice."
Yes, I know, I know. But the depth and breadth of the idiotic opinions expressed on this board have been known to drive intelligent posters elsewhere and I just couldn't take it any more!
"personally if some motherf***** killed my child I in return would kill him and do life standing on my head!!or if need be they the system can kill me to but at least I will die knowing I made him suffer as he did my child!"
Talk's cheap. You daddy types always talk tough in these situations but then you're incapable of backing up your talk. Witness this following statement of yours:
"with all my ranting, honestly? I probably could'nt.
I think I would be stuck with hiring "Vinnie the Hitman" lol
"I know some of you soft hearted criminal loving people...."
Actually, some of us are so hard-hearted that not even instances of crimes most foul sway our reason. Keep in mind the old adage that "Extreme cases make for bad laws." It would seem, however, that you're not one of the coldly sensible types.
"I loose my common sense when I think what these poor children went through.
brings so much anger inside of me!"
BTW, the word you want is lose. You also really do need to work on your paragraph structure and misuse of capitals. Perhaps a remedial English course might help.
either way CC attacking my spelling and paragragh structure is juvenille.
I may not be Mr.Education but at least I'm wealthy so I've done something right in my life.
talk IS cheap CC, especially yours
*yawn*
I may not be Mr.Education but at least I'm wealthy so I've done something right in my life.
if you only knew , but I won't get into my past. You would'nt last a second in my world.
talk IS cheap CC, especially yours
*yawn*
Wrote Zog: "... but someone like Bernardo I would like to see die a slow agonizing death."
This is what, in fact, he is doing. He is in solitary confinement, and will be for the rest of his life. He is unable to meet anyone, he is unable to walk around freely, he sees little sunshine (or rain), he (presumably) has only a television set to look at, filled with mind-numbing nonsense and a reminder of a semblance of the life he left behind. As Saint Bob Dylan said: "He who is not busy being born is busy dying."
Alas for Bernardo, he is just dying, period. He hasn't a chance to be busy, and he certainly doesn't deserve one...
Muddy
This is what, in fact, he is doing. He is in solitary confinement, and will be for the rest of his life. He is unable to meet anyone, he is unable to walk around freely, he sees little sunshine (or rain), he (presumably) has only a television set to look at, filled with mind-numbing nonsense and a reminder of a semblance of the life he left behind. As Saint Bob Dylan said: "He who is not busy being born is busy dying."
Alas for Bernardo, he is just dying, period. He hasn't a chance to be busy, and he certainly doesn't deserve one...
Muddy
respect..
CC,
I never claimed to be the smartest person on terb, that seems to be your claim to fame. I am certainly not short on my intellect.
I do however excercise something called respect for others opinions. (i.e. I don't make derogatory statements regarding peoples attributes (or lack thereof) because I disagree with thier statements or opinions, no matter how off the wall they may seem to me)
Everyone has the right to debate what someone else posts and add thier own opinions, but to insult and disrespect that person is wrong, and you know it.
I also do not feel the need to correct other posters sentence structure or spelling mistakes, to make myself look better than them or to prove I have a formal education. Childish and rather anal, don't you think?
This is the last time I will play your "game" as you so correctly labled it. If this is what you have to do to make yourself feel superior, go for it! Just be careful on that horse or pedestal your sitting on, if you fall off , it's a long way down!
One more thing, have a great day!
Danielle
CC,
I never claimed to be the smartest person on terb, that seems to be your claim to fame. I am certainly not short on my intellect.
I do however excercise something called respect for others opinions. (i.e. I don't make derogatory statements regarding peoples attributes (or lack thereof) because I disagree with thier statements or opinions, no matter how off the wall they may seem to me)
Everyone has the right to debate what someone else posts and add thier own opinions, but to insult and disrespect that person is wrong, and you know it.
I also do not feel the need to correct other posters sentence structure or spelling mistakes, to make myself look better than them or to prove I have a formal education. Childish and rather anal, don't you think?
This is the last time I will play your "game" as you so correctly labled it. If this is what you have to do to make yourself feel superior, go for it! Just be careful on that horse or pedestal your sitting on, if you fall off , it's a long way down!
One more thing, have a great day!
Danielle
Torex!
"either way CC attacking my spelling and paragragh structure is juvenille."
Calling me an idiot makes your English fair game. Yes, I know, I called a fair damsel an idiot first but guess what? My English is fair game! Go for it!
BTW, the proper spelling is juvenile!
"... but at least I'm wealthy so I've done something right in my life."
What would you like to do? Get together and compare T4s? We could but wouldn't that be a bit juvenile? I mean what would we do next? Compare peckers?
"if you only knew , but I won't get into my past. You would'nt last a second in my world."
Don't be fooled by my polished prose. I was most definitely not born into priviledge or with a silver spoon in my mouth!
Dr rdren!
Oh! Of course! Fresh meat!
"It's quite amazing to see a poster..."
It doesn't take much to amaze you - or so it seems.
"... with such anger...."
On that point I'm guilty as charged. My life experiences haven't left me with much love for society. See my previous comments about not having been born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
"But then again he probably has all the time in the world to do so...."
Methinks this is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I noticed that you yourself not only had the time to respond but that you've had the time to post on this board more than I have in the past two months.
"... there is a certain poster on this board that needs to get off his high horse...."
You're either mixing metaphors or you haven't taken the trouble to get your story straight. You called me a punk earlier. That's not the kind of individual typically found on a high horse. So which is it?
"... there is a certain poster on this board that needs to ... get a life."
You realize of course that the "get a life" retort is one originally applied by women to anyone who has interests not revolving around getting married and raising a family. Do you know how incredibly effeminate a man sounds when responding with this retort?
Tell you what boys. If you think we're all just jerking off in this thread, do you want to have a review contest instead? I believe that this board was specifically designed for review writing. You post your best reviews and I'll post mine!
"either way CC attacking my spelling and paragragh structure is juvenille."
Calling me an idiot makes your English fair game. Yes, I know, I called a fair damsel an idiot first but guess what? My English is fair game! Go for it!
BTW, the proper spelling is juvenile!
"... but at least I'm wealthy so I've done something right in my life."
What would you like to do? Get together and compare T4s? We could but wouldn't that be a bit juvenile? I mean what would we do next? Compare peckers?
"if you only knew , but I won't get into my past. You would'nt last a second in my world."
Don't be fooled by my polished prose. I was most definitely not born into priviledge or with a silver spoon in my mouth!
Dr rdren!
Oh! Of course! Fresh meat!
"It's quite amazing to see a poster..."
It doesn't take much to amaze you - or so it seems.
"... with such anger...."
On that point I'm guilty as charged. My life experiences haven't left me with much love for society. See my previous comments about not having been born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
"But then again he probably has all the time in the world to do so...."
Methinks this is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I noticed that you yourself not only had the time to respond but that you've had the time to post on this board more than I have in the past two months.
"... there is a certain poster on this board that needs to get off his high horse...."
You're either mixing metaphors or you haven't taken the trouble to get your story straight. You called me a punk earlier. That's not the kind of individual typically found on a high horse. So which is it?
"... there is a certain poster on this board that needs to ... get a life."
You realize of course that the "get a life" retort is one originally applied by women to anyone who has interests not revolving around getting married and raising a family. Do you know how incredibly effeminate a man sounds when responding with this retort?
Tell you what boys. If you think we're all just jerking off in this thread, do you want to have a review contest instead? I believe that this board was specifically designed for review writing. You post your best reviews and I'll post mine!
Danielle!
"Then whenever a child is murdered or molested, we pick two(three, four five) child molesters off the list and execute them in public."
"I do however excercise something called respect for others opinions."
Nice. You don't respect the rule of law but haughtily claim that you respect the opinions of others. You would execute individuals as punishment for the deed of another but you respect the opinions of others. You either completely lack perspective or you're a hypocrite.
Your comment showed complete disrespect for the legal principles upon which a free society is based.
In the final analysis, however, I was wrong to call you an idiot. I'm sorry. I should have called you contemptible!
"Everyone has the right to debate what someone else posts and add thier own opinions...."
You are of course free to express any opinions you so choose. But keep in mind that you must also be prepared to accept the consequences of your words. You yourself spawned the firestorm. It's a little late to be complaining about it now!
"Then whenever a child is murdered or molested, we pick two(three, four five) child molesters off the list and execute them in public."
"I do however excercise something called respect for others opinions."
Nice. You don't respect the rule of law but haughtily claim that you respect the opinions of others. You would execute individuals as punishment for the deed of another but you respect the opinions of others. You either completely lack perspective or you're a hypocrite.
Your comment showed complete disrespect for the legal principles upon which a free society is based.
In the final analysis, however, I was wrong to call you an idiot. I'm sorry. I should have called you contemptible!
"Everyone has the right to debate what someone else posts and add thier own opinions...."
You are of course free to express any opinions you so choose. But keep in mind that you must also be prepared to accept the consequences of your words. You yourself spawned the firestorm. It's a little late to be complaining about it now!
CC
if you think Child Killers sould not die??
why nolt just say Long life for child killers? And leave it at that???
if you think Child Killers sould not die??
why nolt just say Long life for child killers? And leave it at that???
Papasmerf!
"if you think Child Killers sould not die??"
Actually I've not expressed any opinion on the matter. I understand both sides of the argument with respect to capital punishment. It's a very troublesome issue for me.
"why nolt just say Long life for child killers? And leave it at that???"
You know very well there's more alternatives than that. Do you really want to be the next beneficiary of my "attention"? Personally though I'd rather leave you to Foxhound.
"if you think Child Killers sould not die??"
Actually I've not expressed any opinion on the matter. I understand both sides of the argument with respect to capital punishment. It's a very troublesome issue for me.
"why nolt just say Long life for child killers? And leave it at that???"
You know very well there's more alternatives than that. Do you really want to be the next beneficiary of my "attention"? Personally though I'd rather leave you to Foxhound.
The capital punishment issue has been argued ad nauseum by more learned individuals than ourselves and I have no desire to get into that particularly since I have no strong views on the subject.
However, a couple of quick points. First of all, you've asked a value laden question with which to begin. Secondly, I'm not one to look at things from the perspective of "society" - a grouping from which I've always felt somewhat alienated. I look at things from the perspective of the consumer/taxpayer. While in reality both terms may apply to the same people, there's a bit of a difference in focus between the two and I'm quite comfortable, although unhappy, to see/regard myself as a taxpayer.
Now to answer your specific narrowly defined question. The alternative to capital punishment is of course imprisonment. What's the benefit to the taxpayer of imprisonment? Evidently, imprisonment is cheaper.
What's the benefit to the victim's family of imprisonment? None, over and above the benefit to any taxpayer. Does the fact that there's no incremental benefit to the victim's family concern me? No. You see the only really "beneficial" justice system to the families of victims is one in which the perp would be able to escape punishment by paying off the victim's family! That would of course open up the system to charges that there's one law for the rich and another for the poor. I'm sure you don't want that.
However, a couple of quick points. First of all, you've asked a value laden question with which to begin. Secondly, I'm not one to look at things from the perspective of "society" - a grouping from which I've always felt somewhat alienated. I look at things from the perspective of the consumer/taxpayer. While in reality both terms may apply to the same people, there's a bit of a difference in focus between the two and I'm quite comfortable, although unhappy, to see/regard myself as a taxpayer.
Now to answer your specific narrowly defined question. The alternative to capital punishment is of course imprisonment. What's the benefit to the taxpayer of imprisonment? Evidently, imprisonment is cheaper.
What's the benefit to the victim's family of imprisonment? None, over and above the benefit to any taxpayer. Does the fact that there's no incremental benefit to the victim's family concern me? No. You see the only really "beneficial" justice system to the families of victims is one in which the perp would be able to escape punishment by paying off the victim's family! That would of course open up the system to charges that there's one law for the rich and another for the poor. I'm sure you don't want that.
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As you said my questions was narrowly defined.Cave Carson said:
Please explain how a person imprisioned for say 65 years cost the taxpayers less then swiftly carring out a death sentence. after 3 manitoroy appeals in a 3 year period.
As to the Victums families you seem to not believe they have no entitlement to justice Beyond prision.
As for the rich/poor arguement some would say this condition exists already.
No as to the question of more learned people having worked on this question??? No the people are ment to be the government, not the politicians.
"Please explain how a person imprisioned for say 65 years cost the taxpayers less then swiftly carring out a death sentence. after 3 manitoroy appeals in a 3 year period."
It's the three mandatory appeals over a three year period that are stunningly, egregiously expensive. The incremental cost of feeding and clothing a single additional prisoner for life is comparatively trivial.
"As to the Victums families you seem to not believe they have no entitlement to justice Beyond prision."
Truthfully I've never considered the question from that angle. To whom does/should justice accrue? The truly religious argue that it accrues only to the Lord - but I'm not at all religious. Sorry. You're not going to get an answer from me on that question today.
One thing has disturbed me about the families of victims, however. They always seem to believe that the accused is guilty and fervently hope for a conviction! This was true in the case of Guy Paul Morin. Somehow he found it in his heart to forgive them. I'm not the saint Morin turned out to be. I think the fires of vengeance would have burned in me until quenched by death or some other event.
"As for the rich/poor arguement some would say this condition exists already."
Are you therefore arguing that the guilty should be allowed to buy their way out of punishment by paying off the victim's family?
It's the three mandatory appeals over a three year period that are stunningly, egregiously expensive. The incremental cost of feeding and clothing a single additional prisoner for life is comparatively trivial.
"As to the Victums families you seem to not believe they have no entitlement to justice Beyond prision."
Truthfully I've never considered the question from that angle. To whom does/should justice accrue? The truly religious argue that it accrues only to the Lord - but I'm not at all religious. Sorry. You're not going to get an answer from me on that question today.
One thing has disturbed me about the families of victims, however. They always seem to believe that the accused is guilty and fervently hope for a conviction! This was true in the case of Guy Paul Morin. Somehow he found it in his heart to forgive them. I'm not the saint Morin turned out to be. I think the fires of vengeance would have burned in me until quenched by death or some other event.
"As for the rich/poor arguement some would say this condition exists already."
Are you therefore arguing that the guilty should be allowed to buy their way out of punishment by paying off the victim's family?
Cave Carson said:
How much does the media play into the Guilt prior to trial?? Case in point OJ Simpson.
He was found innocent by a jury and that is that
Yet now many will argue his guilt.
As for the Rich poor arguement I seek Blind justice. where ones cash status, color and or religion hold no water in a court room.
Also the appeal process does not have to be quite so expensive
You can demand better trials to begin with
now with DNA and other types of evidence one could build a better case.
BTW I also do not support plea bargins. And KOPP should have been setenced to death for his crime.
To all:
When the guilty person is found and then convicted. He or she should be interrogated with chemicals to conform guilt. Then her or she should be put to a very slow and painfull death.
Ofcouse this should be televised on every channel and don't forget the internet.
Once people she what would happen to them, this might make them think twice.
Regards
Mack
When the guilty person is found and then convicted. He or she should be interrogated with chemicals to conform guilt. Then her or she should be put to a very slow and painfull death.
Ofcouse this should be televised on every channel and don't forget the internet.
Once people she what would happen to them, this might make them think twice.
Regards
Mack
