The Cunning Linguist said:
An uzi???
Pffft!
Try two uzis, one in each hand!!!
"What's that? You wanna touch my cookie?"
Semi-Automatic Firearms?
- Thread starter Keebler Elf
- Start date
An uzi???
Pffft!
Try two uzis, one in each hand!!!
"What's that? You wanna touch my cookie?"
gramage said:
A semi-auto is a standard hunting rifle. Also, there are courses, tests and background checks that are needed before you can own a firearm.
Please don't say we need a higher standard when you have no idea what the standard is. I for one think the standard is plenty high where it is.
That one is indeed sweet.blackdog said:
I read that during the Iraq war U.S. soldiers would discard their M-16's and use AK-47's from dead Iraqi soldiers. They're said to be much more accurate than M-16's, especially in close quarter fighting
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm
Ak type guns are not more accurate than an M16/C7/AR15. But they are a little less delicate and have more "stopping power" with the 7.62x39 rounds. The AR type rifles are way more accurate, are lighter, the rounds are lighter but you won't blow out a heavy wooden door with .223. With 7.62x39 in an AK you have a bigger heavier round with a less accurate gun. Think of it like an AR15 being a ferrari and an AK type being a beat up pickup truck that will go anywhere. Both have their place. The distinct sound of an AK is also an advantage because it confuses the enemy who can't tell who's shooting at them. The Ak is loose and noisy and makes a lot of noise. The AR is tight and makes a small popping sound. The AK sounds like a car crash with each round with all that cheap stamped metal slapping around in the receiver. Another good analogy is the AR is a surgical tool. The AK is a fire hose of death. Both get the job done.
Moraff said:
Did you see that in a movie or something?
By the way, your helmet, uniform, flag, unit patch, body armour, HMVVW, and the dozens of other Americans around you might kind of give you away. And removing your uniform to hide among the enemy is contrary to the Laws of Armed Conflict.
In any event, picking up a foreign weapon on the battlefield is really not a good idea. They can be left as bait, and are booby-trapped. *Click* BOOM!! Happened in Bosnia and Afghanistan all the time.
Besides, now you're carrying two rifles, because you sure as hell better have held on to your own issued weapon, or there's hell to pay when you get back.
Other than that, it's a great idea.
Esco! said:
Still disagree. If you're in a tank, you're not acting in the dismounted role, and are thus unlikely to be wandering around picking up enemy weapons.
APCs are just battlefield taxis. They get you to the fight, then the infantry un-ass the vehicle and start fighting. You don't just zoom around the battlefield doing drive-bys. The space in them is quite cramped too, so you're not going to bring extra shit inside.
I saw that article. 40 years ago the M-16 was junk. The M-16A1A2 of today is a far superior weapon. They added the forward assist, hardened the internal mechanism, etc. Soldiers today are also much more disciplined about actually cleaning their weapons than they were 40 yrs ago in a conscript army. Weapons jam more often due to operator error than poor design.
I'm not arguing that the AK isn't a robust weapon, very simple to operate and maintain. I just doubt that a lot of Americans are using them in Iraq....and I doubt venerable old Mr.Kalashnikov is really up to speed on current goings on in Iraq. People probably just tell him that everyone uses his bangstick to make him happy.
heh heh heh "bangstick"
Sure, for a trophy picture.
Some of those are private security contractors. Some are carrying FNs and other rifles, too.
They may also be some of the Marines who are actually training the Iraqi Army, so they would carry AKs to train the Iraqis...
And sure, some soldiers may pick up AKs. Doesn't mean it's a weapon of choice or anything.
Some of those are private security contractors. Some are carrying FNs and other rifles, too.
They may also be some of the Marines who are actually training the Iraqi Army, so they would carry AKs to train the Iraqis...
And sure, some soldiers may pick up AKs. Doesn't mean it's a weapon of choice or anything.
Hangman said:
No but an M16 and and AK47 sound completely different. If I'm a US soldier sneaking around a night behind enemy lines it might be a good idea to have a gun that sounds like the enemy's just because it might gain you a few critical seconds of time while they sort out the fact that it wasn't one of their own pulling the trigger.
Another plus, your M16 is limited to the ammo you carry with you. Use the AK47 and every enemy you meet is carrying a resupply for you (assuming they are carrying an AK47 of course)
Downside is that your buddies may not realize it's you on the trigger.
Hangman said:
Only if you're running around in daylight and in a pack.
Hangman said:
True enuf, but if I pick it up off the guy I just waxed, chances are pretty good it is in working order.
Hangman said:
Or at least remember where you left it <grin>
Hangman said:
Given that soldiers have done it several times in history, yah I don't think it's too bad an idea.
Wow. I had no idea we had so many Special Forces veterans here on Terb. You guys really know your stuff!
I have been in service. I have used the C7/AR15 and the AK. The AK is a crude rifle. It does the job but it is full of bugs and rattles. The AR type rifles are a much newer design, lighter, you can carry more rounds and it doesn't need cleaning as often. The 7.62 rounds are corrosive and will foul up an AK in no time. ARs don't have this problem. ARs are more prone to fouling from external things like mud and sand. They are two very different weapons.
You really have to take them apart to appreciate their design.
AK pattern rifles were designed to be mass produced as cheaply as possible and still be able to function reliably. In addition, they had to be simple to maintain and reliable in harsh conditions. The design allows for fairly loose tolerances for most of the parts so you can have dirt and crap in it and it can operate without jamming. This doesn't mean it will NEVER jam, but it's shocking how much abuse they can take.
The design is a marvel because even a completely uneducated village idiot could probably be taught how to clean and maintain it and probably even repair wth only a pair of pliers, some wire, a shoelace, and a hammer (seriously).
Also, millions of copies can be made for as little as $30 or $40...so you can equip a huge army very cheaply. As someone said, quantity has a quality all it's own. It's really the people's rifle... and has even been adopted in the national flag of Mozambique!
It does have some faults - the ergonomics are pretty crude (e.g. the safety lever is LOUD and on the wrong side for a right-hander), it's not the most accurate rifle (fires from an open bolt), sight radius is pretty short, etc.
Take an AK armorer's course if you want to learn more about these rifles.
AR pattern rifles are a pretty different beast - much better ergonomics, much more expensive to manufacture. Tight tolerances means they are more accurate, but they can suffer if they aren't cleaned regularly.
The main complaint I have is the gas system. For those of you who don't know how gas operated rifles work, there is a tiny hole in the barrel near the muzzle. As the bullet passes this hole, some of the expanding gas that is pushing the bullet goes into this hole. The energy of this gas is used to drive the action which operates the gun (i.e. do all the stuff that extracts, then ejects the spent brass and loads the next round to fire).
In the AK, the gas pushes a piston, and the piston drives a rod that operates the action. This means that in principle, the gas goes no further than the piston chamber.
In an AR, the gas goes all the way back into the action and 'directly impinges' on the action.
The problem is that the gas hot and dirty - it has all the combustion products from the gunpowder. In the AK, the piston can get dirty but the piston chamber is relatively easy to clean - the gas never gets past the piston.
In an AR, all that dirty gas goes into the action, where all your moving parts and stuff are...all those little moving bits get covered with gas grit and it's a pain.
Some companies now make piston uppers for AR pattern rifles. More tellingly, the new HK416, which is Heckler and Koch's updated competitor to the M16/M4 family, uses a piston upper. It is said that both SFOD-D (Delta) and DEVGRU (formerly known as Seal Team Six) use the HK416 now and have hogged the US alotment because it is so much better to maintain than the M4.
Who knows what those guys do though.
Anyways, both AR and AK rifles are worth knowing if you are interested in rifles at all, people polarize around the subject of the AK and AR rifles because of the idealogies they have come to represent but engineering-wise they are both pretty cool.
AK pattern rifles were designed to be mass produced as cheaply as possible and still be able to function reliably. In addition, they had to be simple to maintain and reliable in harsh conditions. The design allows for fairly loose tolerances for most of the parts so you can have dirt and crap in it and it can operate without jamming. This doesn't mean it will NEVER jam, but it's shocking how much abuse they can take.
The design is a marvel because even a completely uneducated village idiot could probably be taught how to clean and maintain it and probably even repair wth only a pair of pliers, some wire, a shoelace, and a hammer (seriously).
Also, millions of copies can be made for as little as $30 or $40...so you can equip a huge army very cheaply. As someone said, quantity has a quality all it's own. It's really the people's rifle... and has even been adopted in the national flag of Mozambique!
It does have some faults - the ergonomics are pretty crude (e.g. the safety lever is LOUD and on the wrong side for a right-hander), it's not the most accurate rifle (fires from an open bolt), sight radius is pretty short, etc.
Take an AK armorer's course if you want to learn more about these rifles.
AR pattern rifles are a pretty different beast - much better ergonomics, much more expensive to manufacture. Tight tolerances means they are more accurate, but they can suffer if they aren't cleaned regularly.
The main complaint I have is the gas system. For those of you who don't know how gas operated rifles work, there is a tiny hole in the barrel near the muzzle. As the bullet passes this hole, some of the expanding gas that is pushing the bullet goes into this hole. The energy of this gas is used to drive the action which operates the gun (i.e. do all the stuff that extracts, then ejects the spent brass and loads the next round to fire).
In the AK, the gas pushes a piston, and the piston drives a rod that operates the action. This means that in principle, the gas goes no further than the piston chamber.
In an AR, the gas goes all the way back into the action and 'directly impinges' on the action.
The problem is that the gas hot and dirty - it has all the combustion products from the gunpowder. In the AK, the piston can get dirty but the piston chamber is relatively easy to clean - the gas never gets past the piston.
In an AR, all that dirty gas goes into the action, where all your moving parts and stuff are...all those little moving bits get covered with gas grit and it's a pain.
Some companies now make piston uppers for AR pattern rifles. More tellingly, the new HK416, which is Heckler and Koch's updated competitor to the M16/M4 family, uses a piston upper. It is said that both SFOD-D (Delta) and DEVGRU (formerly known as Seal Team Six) use the HK416 now and have hogged the US alotment because it is so much better to maintain than the M4.
Who knows what those guys do though.
Anyways, both AR and AK rifles are worth knowing if you are interested in rifles at all, people polarize around the subject of the AK and AR rifles because of the idealogies they have come to represent but engineering-wise they are both pretty cool.
gramage said:
This statement makes no sense. Your standard bolt-action .303 hunting rifle is just as lethal as any semi-automatic rifle on the market (legit or black market). If you can acquire a firearm you better know what you're doing.
The regs are tough. I am in a situation now where I've inherited 5 rifles and shotguns. All of them we legitimatly purchased with the proper paper work and registered under that stupid Liberal registry. I only have a possesion permit so I cannot legally take ownership of these things because I do not have an FAC to acquire. I don't want the government to take them and destroy them. Some of them are antiques... (ie. WWII Lee Enfield .303).
Moraff said:
AK is 7.62, much better penetration. Can go thru cheap cinderblock or poor grade concrete walls.
Thats why I walk around all day covered in sandbags.
.
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