Sarin Bomb Explodes in Iraq!!

[tompeepin]

Perhaps this should be part of another US Bashing thread ...

OTB

You are way too sensitive. As Shake said in another thread, we all love America. Yet we must speak what our conscience dictates. Our objections are not to "America", but rather about certain policies.

... but it's a valid subject. I didn't read Canada on your list, that's interesting given that Thailand has the technology.....

OTB

If only Canada had a military! hahaha Maybe that is why Canada did not make the list yet. When Canada fires one that I know of I will write to my MP and protest. Do Canadian peace-keeping forces use DU munitions? That is certainly something to look into. We certainly will hold Canada just as accountable. What happened in Somalia was disgusting and disgraceful. The Air Borne Regiment had to be disbanded because of the culture that had developed there.

I guess one would make certain assumptions about the state of priorities if one needs to use armor piercing shells or is at risk of its armor being pierced. I don't think there is any weapon without unintended consequences.

OTB

That is a good point. But even from a self-interest standpoint if the unintended consequences are your own soldiers and the future citizens of your own nation??? Again, at what price? Do we know what to cost will be? Is it a case of "no matter the cost"? If so, well then, so be it.

 

[onthebottom]

You are way too sensitive. As Shake said in another thread, we all love America. Yet we must speak what our conscience dictates. Our objections are not to "America", but rather about certain policies.

Fair enought although I don't think that is everyone's perspective that posts on these threads. But it is fair to discuss US policy.

If only Canada had a military! hahaha Maybe that is why Canada did not make the list yet. When Canada fires one that I know of I will write to my MP and protest. Do Canadian peace-keeping forces use DU munitions? That is certainly something to look into. We certainly will hold Canada just as accountable. What happened in Somalia was disgusting and disgraceful. The Air Borne Regiment had to be disbanded because of the culture that had developed there..

The "if only Canada had a military!" was actually my point, I think it's a bit presumptive if you critisize how another nation protects it's solders but don't put yours in a simpliar situation. Would you want Canada to go to battle with Tanks that could not sustain fire or shells that could not defeat enemy tanks?

That is a good point. But even from a self-interest standpoint if the unintended consequences are your own soldiers and the future citizens of your own nation??? Again, at what price? Do we know what to cost will be? Is it a case of "no matter the cost"? If so, well then, so be it.

I don't think any military objective is "no matter the cost" it's all a balance of cost / benefit. I'm not defending DU munitions becasue I've not read the facts but the same cost / benefit has to be used with cluster munitions (as *d* brought up), artillary......

OTB

 

[The Shake]

Fair enought although I don't think that is everyone's perspective that posts on these threads. But it is fair to discuss US policy.

I have to agree with OTB. Many of the posters in these threads hold fairly vile (or at least smug) attitudes towards America in general. Its one of the most depressing parts of the Canadian psyche right now.

 

[onthebottom]

I have to agree with OTB. Many of the posters in these threads hold fairly vile (or at least smug) attitudes towards America in general. Its one of the most depressing parts of the Canadian psyche right now.

But there are bright lights, you , BBking and others tend to hold much more Liberal views than I but at least try and support their views with logic that doesn't involve "W is an idiot" as a key logic component.

And yes, smug and irresponsible are especially frustrating.

OTB

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

I have to agree with OTB. Many of the posters in these threads hold fairly vile (or at least smug) attitudes towards America in general. Its one of the most depressing parts of the Canadian psyche right now.

That's because America is destabilizing the world very quickly, and its government and its people think that simply being America gives it a free pass.

I love America, but I think Americans are too stupid to realize that their democracy is in deep decline, and that so much power is concentrated so high in the government that it's impossible to function as a democracy.

At the same time, we in Canada do seem terminally smug and have failed to confront many of the realities of the new world.

Difference is, we don't seem as intent on demonizing the world's population with cowboy theatrics.

Bravado and sheer force simply won't do it in the modern world.

 

[tompeepin]

The "if only Canada had a military!" was actually my point, I think it's a bit presumptive if you critisize how another nation protects it's solders but don't put yours in a simpliar situation. Would you want Canada to go to battle with Tanks that could not sustain fire or shells that could not defeat enemy tanks?

OTB [/B]

Thankfully Canada did not put Canadians in a similar situation. I would hope that Canada would have been more diplomatic on the world stage. And the question is did DU munitions and armor protect a few soldiers at the cost of many others and their future generations? Again a debate much like; is the cost of the wanton annihilation of Japanese civilians worth the lives of American GIs? What would have happened if the US had not invaded Japan? If the US had blockaded Japan and let it fall apart? Did Japan still have any resources and much fight left? Is expediency the important factor? Well I guess we all have our opinions.

I'm not defending DU munitions becasue I've not read the facts but the same cost / benefit has to be used with cluster munitions (as *d* brought up), artillary......

OTB

For the sake of humanity, I think that we should not take the route of expediency but really seriously investigate these issues. Maybe these were part of the many reasons why many people were against the war in Iraq even though they desired that the brutal dictator Saddam be overthrown. Is the cure worse than the disease?

 

[The Shake]

I love America, but I think Americans are too stupid

That's not a particularly loving thing to say.

to realize that their democracy is in deep decline, and that so much power is concentrated so high in the government that it's impossible to function as a democracy.

That description would be far more apt for countries that have perverted parliamentary systems (such as Canada, for example). Although there are problems with American democracy, I fail to see how they are any worse than any other system currently in place.

Difference is, we don't seem as intent on demonizing the world's population with cowboy theatrics.

No, we'd rather just demonize the good guys.

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

That's called denial, and you Americans specialize in it like no one else.

Nuff said. You ain't worth the brain power.

Even worse is that there are plenty of Americans wiser than you who could make far better arguments here.

 

[The Shake]

That's called denial, and you Americans specialize in it like no one else.

Nuff said. You ain't worth the brain power.

Even worse is that there are plenty of Americans wiser than you who could make far better arguments here.

Somewhere out there, Americanson is killing himself laughing at this one.

 

[onthebottom]

Somewhere out there, Americanson is killing himself laughing at this one.

I was speachless at the stupidity of the remark, this was the perfect retort!

OTB

 

[*d*]

When Canada fires one that I know of I will write to my MP and protest. Do Canadian peace-keeping forces use DU munitions? That is certainly something to look into. We certainly will hold Canada just as accountable.

Canada doesn't use DU munitions, but I think there's still a good reason to write your MP. It hurts to say this, but most of the US's DU munitions originates from Canadian uranium because Canada is pretty much the US's only supplier of uranium. Canada however, has a bilateral nuclear co-operation agreement with the US that states uranium exports to the US can be used only for peaceful purposes. But Canada is slack in enforcing this policy because they do not ask the US where the DU comes from.
The US also makes it hard to prove that the DU originates from Canadian uranium because the US also doesn't release that information. I think the Canadian government should pick up the pace in restricting the use of their uranium.

 

[tompeepin]

... but I think there's still a good reason to write your MP. It hurts to say this, but most of the US's DU munitions originates from Canadian uranium because Canada is pretty much the US's only supplier of uranium. ... The US also makes it hard to prove that the DU originates from Canadian uranium because the US also doesn't release that information. I think the Canadian government should pick up the pace in restricting the use of their uranium.

You have made excellent points. However, how far do you think Canada would get in enforcement? Even at the level of world bodies? And if Canada wanted to stop shipments of Uranium to the US do you think that they could? Canada produces I think 2.5 million barrels of oil a day. Canada consumes I think 2 million barrels a day. Canada signed an agreement; I would have to research exactly which one, which states that it cannot stop oil shipments to the US even in case of a National emergency. When it comes to the US we have little in the way of teeth. All we can do is whine.

 

[*d*]

You have made excellent points. However, how far do you think Canada would get in enforcement? Even at the level of world bodies? And if Canada wanted to stop shipments of Uranium to the US do you think that they could? Canada produces I think 2.5 million barrels of oil a day. Canada consumes I think 2 million barrels a day. Canada signed an agreement; I would have to research exactly which one, which states that it cannot stop oil shipments to the US even in case of a National emergency. When it comes to the US we have little in the way of teeth. All we can do is whine.

Agreed. Canada on its own hasn't the teeth to tell the US what to do. Even at the the World Uranium Weapons Conference in Hamburg, Germany in 2000, Canada couldn't take the lead when asked to help stop the production of DU munitions made from Canadian uranium. But I think the conference idea is the direction to go. Take it to an international level to pressure countries like the US to ban their DU weapon production. Give Canada an international backing.
The sad part of this is that the US doesn't have much respect for international opinion.

 

[Master Baiter]

I don't know if this was touched on earlier but here's my soapbox rant. Has anyone noticed how CNN has downplayed the Sarin gas/chemical weapons thing when FoxNews etc. was headlining it? Are they so focused on discrediting Bush that even when there is an actual chemical weapon in Iraq that they turn a blind eye to it and their headlines are "Gas prices climbing..." Bunch of leftist! That whole week after the Sarin gas bomb CNN did not even have headlines on their website etc. and you really had to search for any info on it. The minute they find more dirt on Bush, it's top headlines for them! I got daily screen caps as proof... how sad is that?!!

 

[*d*]

I don't know if this was touched on earlier but here's my soapbox rant. Has anyone noticed how CNN has downplayed the Sarin gas/chemical weapons thing when FoxNews etc. was headlining it? Are they so focused on discrediting Bush that even when there is an actual chemical weapon in Iraq that they turn a blind eye to it and their headlines are "Gas prices climbing..." Bunch of leftist! That whole week after the Sarin gas bomb CNN did not even have headlines on their website etc. and you really had to search for any info on it. The minute they find more dirt on Bush, it's top headlines for them! I got daily screen caps as proof... how sad is that?!!

I was also surprised CNN wasn't jumping all over this story. But there's an explanation. Very little information on the bomb was released. With no facts, maybe we should be patting CNN on the back for not speculating about this shell.

"Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. But facts that should have accompanied the story - the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals - were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile. The data - available to the ISG(Iraq Survey Group, the US unit investigating WMD in Iraq) - would put this development in proper perspective - allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications." --Scott Ritter, UN weapons inspector in Iraq '91-'98