Russia invades Ukraine

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mandrill

mandrill

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wilbur said:
If it came to that, we can all kiss our asses goodbye.

Anyway, why not put the future of Crimea in the hands of it's residents by having a referendum?...... Oh Wait! We can't do that because they would vote to split anyway. So much for democracy.

My take on this is that, this is the result of Ukraine's political system breaking down. The Opposition lost control to the protesters after they signed the EU sponsored agreement with Yanukovych. The latter gave practically everything away, only to have the radicals at the barricades declaring that they didn't recognize the agreement and they were giving Yanukovych until 10 AM to clear off, or else they were going to storm the parliament. The deal was now dead and Yanukovych cleared off along with the cops. I found it interesting that the newly appointed ministers had to have mob approval in the square.

Now they are trying to get legitimacy in order to get the IMF to loan them some money. It's going to mean austerity like no-one has seen before, far greater than Greece. Any significant EU money for Ukraine will result in anger in the troubled EU economies for seeing money going to a country outside the EU, instead of giving them a break with their own austerity programmes. Ukranians are still under the delusion that EU membership is going to bring them manna from heaven, including smart phones.

If only Yanukovych could have been allowed to continue his term until it ran out in Feb 2015, and then have him defeated a the polls and replaced. But I guess, he could have been reelected again by his Russian speaking constituency, and that wouldn't have pleased the US. Stupid US meddling and subverting will have resulted in the partitioning of Ukraine and brought us towards an armed confrontation with Russia.
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Thanks for supplying us w Mr Putin's after dinner speech, Wilbur.

Think it's possible that the protesters didn't accept the agreement because they thought that Yanukovich might double-cross them? Oh, not Yanukovich surely! Guy's as honest as the day is long! And the Rada being approved by the demonstrators is a good way to get the demonstrators to disperse.

And any idea about what EU or non EU membership is going to mean for Ukraine is speculative and Ukraine had already voted in favour when Yanukovich changed tack.

And Yanukovich didn't last until the next elections because a revolution happened in the meantime. Circumstances change, right?

But you clearly get your script from a site that's blindly pro Russian and nothing I'm telling you is going to matter.

And anyway, you're convinced that the USA set it all up.
 
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danmand

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oagre said:
Thanks for supplying us w Mr Putin's after dinner speech, Wilbur.

Think it's possible that the protesters didn't accept the agreement because they thought that Yanukovich might double-cross them? Oh, not Yanukovich surely! Guy's as honest as the day is long! And the Rada being approved by the demonstrators is a good way to get the demonstrators to disperse.

And any idea about what EU or non EU membership is going to mean for Ukraine is speculative and Ukraine had already voted in favour when Yanukovich changed tack.

And Yanukovich didn't last until the next elections because a revolution happened in the meantime. Circumstances change, right?

But you clearly get your script from a site that's blindly pro Russian and nothing I'm telling you is going to matter.

And anyway, you're convinced that the USA set it all up.
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And you give us Harper's after dinner speech: Remove russias troops from the crimea. Should one laugh or cry??
 
J

johnhenrygalt

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SkyRider said:
But, isn't Ukraine losing Crimea analogous to Canada losing Quebec? (How would you feel if France took Quebec away from Canada?) Won't the Ukrainians be pissed off?
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No - The Ukraine seceding from the USSR is analogous to Quebec seceding from Canada. Russia wanting to recover the Crimea is analogous to Canada wanting back Rupert's Land, the Ottawa valley and perhaps west Montreal from an independent Quebec.
 
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Aardvark154

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afterhours said:
OTTAWA (AP) Canada says it is pulling its ambassador from Moscow over the crisis in Ukraine.

A statement issued by Prime Minister Stephen Harper after an emergency Cabinet meeting says Canada also is pulling out of the Group of Eight process being chaired by Russia for an international economic summit in June.

Harper strongly condemns Russia's military intervention in Ukraine and urges President Vladimir Putin to withdraw his troops.
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Frankly Canada pulling it's Ambassador is not likely to pose a serious danger of things getting out of control in the way that pulling the Russian Ambassador to the U.S., or the U.S. Ambassador to Russia would.
 
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danmand

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Aardvark154 said:
Frankly Canada pulling it's Ambassador is not likely to pose a serious danger of things getting out of control in the way that pulling the Russian Ambassador to the U.S., or the U.S. Ambassador to Russia would.
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Ya dont think so??
 
D

danmand

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Aardvark154 said:
No, and for that very reason it may not be a bad idea so long as it doesn't go on for more than a week or two.
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You have been drinking: "we should do it because it has no effect"
 
W

wilbur

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oagre said:


Think it's possible that the protesters didn't accept the agreement because they thought that Yanukovich might double-cross them? Oh, not Yanukovich surely! Guy's as honest as the day is long! And the Rada being approved by the demonstrators is a good way to get the demonstrators to disperse.


And anyway, you're convinced that the USA set it all up.
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I see... mob rule over even the rump parliament that was left over. So much for democracy. The mob was at best 20,000. But Ukraine has a population of over 55 million. Nobody voted for what happened. So lets have a mob on parliament hill throwing Molotov cocktails and threatening to storm parliament if you don't agree with the party in power. Gee! wonder how our government would respond to a situation like that. What happened at the G20 in Toronto would be like a sunday picnic compared to how our government would respond.

The US did conspire to destabilize Ukraine. It's not even for democracy, but a continuation of Zbigniev Brezhinsky's doctrine starting with Afghanistan in 1980, to squeeze Russia ,and the Soviet Union before that. Victoria Nuland did discuss with the US ambassador (when she said to fcuk the EU) about who should lead Ukraine after Yanukovych, and the ambassador was making contacts. Given that the US had spent 5 Billion dollars destabilizing Ukraine since 1992 (by Nuland's own admission in a recent speech), it's not hard to imagine that the US was channelling money to protestors, NGO's, organisers and opposition politicians.
 
mandrill

mandrill

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wilbur said:
I see... mob rule over even the rump parliament that was left over. So much for democracy. The mob was at best 20,000. But Ukraine has a population of over 55 million. Nobody voted for what happened. So lets have a mob on parliament hill throwing Molotov cocktails and threatening to storm parliament if you don't agree with the party in power. Gee! wonder how our government would respond to a situation like that. What happened at the G20 in Toronto would be like a sunday picnic compared to how our government would respond.

The US did conspire to destabilize Ukraine. It's not even for democracy, but a continuation of Zbigniev Brezhinsky's doctrine starting with Afghanistan in 1980, to squeeze Russia ,and the Soviet Union before that. Victoria Nuland did discuss with the US ambassador (when she said to fcuk the EU) about who should lead Ukraine after Yanukovych, and the ambassador was making contacts. Given that the US had spent 5 Billion dollars destabilizing Ukraine since 1992 (by Nuland's own admission in a recent speech), it's not hard to imagine that the US was channeling money to protestors, NGO's, organisers and opposition politicians.
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But Wilbur, the very fact that we DON'T have mobs rioting on Parliament Hill is a pretty cogent statement that our society is far different from Ukraine. We also don't have massive corruption and efficiency problems and rule by plutocrats and oligarchs at the expense of the ordinary joe. We also do not have politicians who periodically sell out to a neighbouring power at the expense of their own people. We don't have politicians who poison and jail their rivals. And we don't have a president who serves terms in prison. Or gives mafiya finger signs when he speaks.

$5billion sounds like a lot. But over 20 years, it's not that much. And those of us outside Russia - apart from you, I guess - would suggest that the money was spent on attempting to combat the huge corruption in Ukraine and to build up a genuine democratic sensibility. Again, if this were done by a power in Canada attempting to undermine democracy and replace it with some form of fascism, I might have a problem. But Ukraine's the sort of place that can only be improved.

If Canada gave $50,000 to a community group in Mexico that involved an initiative in opposing government corruption in that country, would you consider that "destabilization" as well?

The Zbigniew Doctrine and the Cold War are long gone. And I haven't come across 1 iota of proof - or even allegation - that any attempt is being made to squeeze or destabilize Russia itself.

And if 20,000 people stormed parliament in Ottawa, I'm sure parliament would relocate and simply call in the military to suppress the mob. It will never happen here and the hypothetical is ridiculous, like all your rant.
 
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wilbur

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oagre said:

If Canada gave $50,000 to a community group in Mexico that involved an initiative in opposing government corruption in that country, would you consider that "destabilization" as well?
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I would call that interference and meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. To undermine the stability of a sovereign state is sedition and a hostile action.

It would not be up to Canada to interfere in another country's democratically elected government, even if they are corrupt as hell. It's up to their electorate to throw them out of office come election time. If Russia started funding separatist parties in Quebec, I can assure you that that would be cause to break off diplomatic relations.
 
R

rgkv

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rgkv said:
I don't see the US going to war with Russia .......Period !!!
I think there's enough intelligence in both countries to know what that means.
Even if the Russians invade the US will saber rattle, the Russians will do there thing, then leave {except for the one's they leave behind to run the show}, everyone will take credit, life goes on......
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It's happening!!!!!
 
mandrill

mandrill

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wilbur said:
I would call that interference and meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. To undermine the stability of a sovereign state is sedition and a hostile action.

It would not be up to Canada to interfere in another country's democratically elected government, even if they are corrupt as hell. It's up to their electorate to throw them out of office come election time. If Russia started funding separatist parties in Quebec, I can assure you that that would be cause to break off diplomatic relations.
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But the fact that the govt is "corrupt as hell" assures that the elections will either be false or completely irrelevant, no?

The Quebec and Canadian govts are not "as corrupt as hell". And that again is the entire point here. Which you are missing.
 
D

danmand

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Reports are that ukrainian forces in the crimea are defecting/resigning en masse.
 
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