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Royal Prank Call Nurse 'Commits Suicide'

rld

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Nope. I have a lot of information about her mental health. I know that she died by suicide. Therefore she was certainly mentally ill.
Did you read her clinical notes and records? Talk to her health care providers? What diagnosis are you suggesting she suffered from?
 

Aardvark154

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fuji

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Did you read her clinical notes and records? Talk to her health care providers? What diagnosis are you suggesting she suffered from?
I don't know what she suffered from, but mentally healthy people do not suicide. The suicide itself is strong evidence, even proof, of mental illness, an illness serious enough that she died from it.
 

fuji

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But while this sort of depression and need for perfection can be described as "less than stable" I don't think most of us would describe such a person as being "*&^% nuts," which it seems to me is the thrust of some posts.
If you are referring to me, I did not call her fucking nuts and I have avoided blaming her for being ill with such obnoxious phrases as "commits" suicide, as if it were a crime.

The woman was obviously ill and an inquest should be conducted to see if the hospital or other institutions around her missed opportunities to direct her to the sort of care that could have saved her life.
 

Aardvark154

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If you are referring to me, I did not call her fucking nuts and I have avoided blaming her for being ill with such obnoxious phrases as "commitd" suicide, as if it were a crime.
That is true, you have not.

By the way an inquest was officially begun today, although it will not really get rolling quite yet.
 

Perry Mason

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I say there is legal responsibility, or would be in Ontario, because of the negligence act and joint and several responsibility. I have not said anything about quantum of damages, and if fact if you bothered to read the threads I have made it clear I don't think the suicide was reasonably forseeable. Thus there would likely be no damages.

However, the question of responsibility is a separate one from damages now isn't it?

I have been litigating tort cases for more than two decades now. I can speak with some confidence on the concepts involved. Which is more than I can say for you.
Sorry rld, but I will call your argument sophistry.

The question of reasonable foreseeability goes to the issue of liability, NOT the issue of quantum of damages.

You may have stated the legal principles with reasonable accuracy, but your argument in relation to applicability of those principles would not last more than 30 seconds in the Court of Appeal.

Two decades of experience would not save you... and is totally irrelevant to the validity of your argument.

Frankly, I have never heard a lawyer assert that his experince with a subject means that his argument is valid. That's a "new one on me!"

But I have more than once heard a judge admonish a lawyer for foolish arguments in light of their experience. :Eek:

Perry
 

rld

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Sorry rld, but I will call your argument sophistry.

The question of reasonable foreseeability goes to the issue of liability, NOT the issue of quantum of damages.

You may have stated the legal principles with reasonable accuracy, but your argument in relation to applicability of those principles would not last more than 30 seconds in the Court of Appeal.

Two decades of experience would not save you... and is totally irrelevant to the validity of your argument.

Frankly, I have never heard a lawyer assert that his experince with a subject means that his argument is valid. That's a "new one on me!"

But I have more than once heard a judge admonish a lawyer for foolish arguments in light of their experience. :Eek:

Perry
It is not sophistry at all. The concept of liability in Ontario is actually quite complicated, but you will notice I used the term responsible, and now you are trying to run down Fuji' rabbit hole. I have consistently suggested that the damages were too remote and not reasonably forseeable. But that does not mean that one is not responsible for those damages.

Have you read Mustapha? Let me quote from the Supremes if you like:

M’s damage is too remote to allow recovery. As the manufacturer of a consumable
good, C owed M, the ultimate consumer of that good, a duty of care in supplying bottled water to
him, and it breached the standard of care by providing M with contaminated water. The requirement
of personal injury, which includes serious and prolonged psychological injury, is also met: M
suffered a debilitating psychological injury which had a significant impact on his life. C’s breach
caused that injury in fact, but not in law: M failed to show that it was foreseeable that a person of
ordinary fortitude would suffer serious injury from seeing the flies in the bottle of water he was
about to install.
You will note the Supremes felt that standard, causation and damages were all made out...but they were not forseeable.

Thus Culligan (ie the DJs) had a:

a) a duty of care to the person in question
b) breached the standard in the situation
c) caused the individual damages

But did not have to pay them. The Supremes nicely clarified the ordinary fortitude test.

This is exactly what I am saying here. I am simply singing from the Supreme's songbook. You will of course know that the court did not find that Culligan was "not liable" or "not responsible" simply that the plaintiff could not recover damages.

I should point out that your argument shows that you either don't understand my argument or are trying to misrepresent it. I specifically said that my argument is not about quantum of damages, and for some reason you seem to suggest I said the reverse. My argument is that no damages will be paid because the injuries were not reasonably forseeable. The quantum of damages in M. v. C would have been quite large, but since the defendant would not have to pay any there was no reason to assess them now would there be?

But if you think my approach is sophistry...call Justice Maclaughlin. She wrote the decision.

And the good news is, that this board is not a court, and you, and the other posters are not judges.

Someone tried to suggest I was applying the 1%, the Negligence Act and J&S liability incorrectly. I questioned their qualifications to do so, and showed where they were wrong on the law as well.

You are famaliar with Mustapha right Perry? If so the parallels between this nurse and Mr. M. should have jumped right out at you and lead you directly to the correct answer for Canadian law.
 

Perry Mason

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Well, rld...

If you think the Chief Justice was talking about anything other than liability in that quote, then let me know when you will be making that submission to the Court of Appeal so that I can be there to join in the laughter...

The same goes for your distinction between "responsibility" and "liability" in the context of this discussion.

But that is it for me on this subject. It is beginning to look like "tale told by [an] idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing..."

Perry
 

rld

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Well, rld...

If you think the Chief Justice was talking about anything other than liability in that quote, then let me know when you will be making that submission to the Court of Appeal so that I can be there to join in the laughter...

The same goes for your distinction between "responsibility" and "liability" in the context of this discussion.

But that is it for me on this subject. It is beginning to look like "tale told by [an] idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing..."

Perry


The Supreme court of canada ruled that the fly was the cause of grevious harm to Mr. Mustapha.

It appears you have locked into your misleading ways. Where do I use the term liability?

And I have argued the meaning of the word liability at the appellate level...and won.

One of us knows what he is talking about. As we say, Mustapha is on "all fours" with this suicide case.

I also note you failed to answer whether or not you were famaliar with Mustapha...shall we draw an adverse inference?

And while you do have some cute quotes...I have the SCC and some case law. How do you think Alderson fits into this analysis? Let's get serious about it...show your legal stuff.
 

Insidious Von

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Utter balderdash!

But a French-Italian in the service of the Holy Roman Empire???
Not quite, his title was Principe di Savoia-Carigniano. You should also look at the War of the Spanish Succession. After the loss at Blenheim, Louis XIV counter-attacked by invading Savoy and putting Torino under siege. Eugine broke the siege with considerable loss of life to the French. Had he failed to do so his lineage would not have been in a position to become Kings of Italy.

As for the suicidal nurse; it was a lack of fortitude not mental illness that did her in. Her life would have been radically changed for the worse and she responded accordingly. Add another to the Royal Family's considerably body count.
 

blackrock13

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Not quite, his title was Principe di Savoia-Carigniano. You should also look at the War of the Spanish Succession. After the loss at Blenheim, Louis XIV counter-attacked by invading Savoy and putting Torino under siege. Eugine broke the siege with considerable loss of life to the French. Had he failed to do so his lineage would not have been in a position to become Kings of Italy.

As for the suicidal nurse; it was a lack of fortitude not mental illness that did her in. Her life would have been radically changed for the worse and she responded accordingly. Add another to the Royal Family's considerably body count.
The fact that she was a nurse tells me all I need to know about fortitude. It takes a very special person to be a nurse. The fact that she was good at it, as mentioned often by her co workers who will certainly know her better than you.

Crykie, she's mental and got no guts. Can't wait until the accusations of devil worship on her days off.
 

wigglee

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How many died when Orson Wells did War of the Worlds? Did he do jail time?....no.
 

Aardvark154

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How many died when Orson Wells did War of the Worlds? Did he do jail time?....no.
Did Orson Wells telephone people and lie about whom he was? Further I seem to recall that the broadcast began with a disclaimer (which, however, many people tuning in late missed). Seems to me that you have widely missed the mark with this analogy.
 

blackrock13

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How many died when Orson Wells did War of the Worlds? Did he do jail time?....no.
Did Orson Wells telephone people and lie about whom he was? Further I seem to recall that the broadcast began with a disclaimer (which, however, many people tuning in late missed). Seems to me that you have widely missed the mark with this analogy.
You can look that one up, it might surprise you, and remember that on four occasions during the broadcast, it was clearly stated that it was a just a play.
 

Aardvark154

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This article both raises and answers some questions.

The Daily Mail

"Even if you’d never heard of the King Edward VII Hospital before that infamous prank call, a quick look at its online brochure would have told you all about its self-belief and famous heritage.

Established more than 100 years ago, it hand-picks its consultants, claims a zero rate of hospital-acquired MRSA infections, and offers all patients well-appointed private rooms.

Of course, because the private hospital business is fiercely competitive, huge effort is exerted to recruit the best consultants and to offer a five-star service.

But for the King Edward VII in Central London, there’s no doubt that what gives it the commercial edge is not its staff or the fine meals on offer, but its peerless royal connections.

The Queen is not only patron but also a former patient — she had surgery on her knee there in 2003. In addition, the Queen Mother, Prince Philip, Prince Charles, Camilla and Sophie Wessex have all been treated there.

So when the world discovered how easy it was for Australia’s 2Day FM hoaxers to hoodwink the staff, the hospital found itself facing a major PR crisis.

All hospitals have a prime duty to protect their patients’ privacy. But when your unique selling point is that those patients include the Royal Family, a failure to guarantee that privacy becomes potentially catastrophic.

No one — not the DJ pranksters, not the hospital, not William and Kate — could possibly have predicted that the nurse who put through the call would feel so devastated she would take her own life. But it surely doesn’t require much imagination to realise that the nurses involved would have felt both personally and professionally humiliated.

Certainly that thought occurred to William and Kate. As William’s office was quick to point out: ‘We offered our full and heartfelt support to the nurses involved and hospital staff at all times.’

Even so, the hospital’s management had suffered terrible damage to its much-prized image. Despite long experience of dealing with the royals, it appears to have been unprepared for the level of attention such a high-profile patient would inevitably attract.

With what now seems to have been fatal complacency, it appears not to have occurred to anyone that it should upgrade its usual night-time telephone protocol, whereby calls to the switchboard are automatically diverted to a senior nurse on duty.

Nor, it seems, did it adequately consider just how devastated that nurse would feel when she realised the result of her action. We may in due course learn there were other factors that contributed to Indian-born Jacintha Saldanha’s fragile mental state. But at the moment it seems likely that her background and culture meant she couldn’t forgive herself for having brought shame on herself, her family and her employers.


John Lofthouse, the hospital’s chief executive, has said she was not disciplined or criticised and that ‘the hospital had been supporting her throughout this difficult time’.
However, her family are entitled to ask precisely what form that support took.

Did any senior official reassure Mrs Saldanha that her job was safe? Did any manager have the decency to tell her the fault was not hers but theirs — for failing to recognise that they should have put additional security measures in place?

According to MP Keith Vaz, who’s been in close contact with the nurse’s family, her distraught husband and children do not feel the hospital has offered them sufficient support.

The inquiry the hospital is now conducting must establish whether its efforts to reassure her were as plentiful and heartfelt as its efforts to reassure the Royal Family that such a breach of privacy would never occur again.
For the deeply disturbing feeling remains that the welfare of a ‘dedicated and caring’ nurse was not quite as high in managers’ minds as ensuring the continued patronage of its royal patients.

Without doubt, the Royal Family awaits the answers to these questions with interest. Who could blame them if they seriously considered switching hospitals?
Not because a nurse put through a hoax call. But because a hospital’s duty of care to dedicated and hard-working staff should always matter more than its public image."
 

Aardvark154

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Well then IFF its true that she felt she somehow brought shame on herself for letting a fkn phone call go through, and the other nit wit answering it couldn't figure out it was fake, then she set her own grave with her own stupidity and primitive beliefs of elevating someone to be better than herself.
Your empathy and sympathy is simply outstanding Then again perhaps not
 

Aardvark154

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Do you think Diana was killed or Murdered?
Some people are blinded by celebrity.
Two exhaustive investigations have determined a) the driver of the car was legally intoxicated b) the paparazzi were chasing then around Paris c) If the late Princess of Wales had not refused to have Royal Protection Squad Officers she might have lived longer - since they most certainly would not have allowed her to get into a car driven by a drunk, let alone be in a car driven at high speed across Paris.

Hence it was a sad but unfortunately familiar story drunk driver crashes at high speed, occupants of the vehicle are killed as a result of blunt force trauma.
 

Aardvark154

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It just so happens that my empathy and sympathy are not yours to define. They are mine to define. Just as her suicide was hers to define.
Your original words speak quite loudly. You can play Humpty Dumpty if you want: "A word means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." But the rest of us are probably not going to go along.
 
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